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-- Israel bombs Gaza...again.
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Originally posted by jad I find it rude you're asking me whether I'm a Palestinian or just another self-identified Palestinian. Straight up, who are you to ask me that? Is telling you I'm Palestinian not enough for you? The fact that I have a home and family there, that I have a West Bank Green Card (Hawiya Khadra)is none of your business, but I just had to put you in place. 'Another self-identified Palestinian'.. wow buddy.. that's just low and mean.

no, thats not enough. they read books and watch cnn and bbc, they know better than you

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there is no benefit to anyone really. it would only escalate the conflict even further

nobody would benefit??? 500 people dead, at least one kid under 5. and nobody would benefit???

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i'm a history major with almost a minor in poli sci (still working on it)

if our future depends on you and others like you ill kill myself right now. right now!!!

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What I have done is read several books on the subject, gone through several sites and essays on the subject both pro- and anti-Israel (checking references and weighing evidence accordingly, of course), spoken to a number of people from Israel and from Palestine, and been to the region myself some years ago (although obviously I didn't hang around on the Gaza strip).

ugh. man..... fuck it. just a quick question : did you see infected mushroom while there by any chance??

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So what media is the right one Anas? (I don't have cable or satellite TV if you want my answer). If you are ready to refute others' I am interested in your own, if that is anything different than the several clips and media you have already provided.

would you believe him if he told you he has a family there?? or if he told you his family was killed in the bombings??? why would you rather believe "media" then somebody who actually has a first hand knowledge about whats going on there?


your(western) media is biased, thats been proven time after time.

This is further support for Anas Attia's argument about the credibility of media sources.. I was trying to search the phrase 'december gaza casualty figures' on google, only to find that most of the results were from sources with views parallel to Israel's general public opinion. These are the same views you'll see when you open your tv to CNN or CTV. After searching through many results, I finally stumbled upon one article which showed a Palestinian perspective... it worries me to see Palestinian viewpoints being supressed in something that is so widely used - Google search. If you don't believe me try it out yourself. My point is that everyone should pay attention to the bias in mainstream information which is made easily accessible to us.

Read and compare... pay special attention to the figures:

2 of the earlier results:

http://www.yourish.com/2008/12/27/5830

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=84697

one of the later results:

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf...KE?OpenDocument

My condolences go out to the families of all the innocent people that have lost their lives in this massacre.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Ahhh, so close, so very close! This is perhaps the greatest flaw in western society, coupled with the assumption that the ideal is an absolute rather than a cultural relative.

I would say this flaw is greater in western society however; this flaw is still present across the globe. You are right, in times of war in some religions and cultures its honorable to die for the cause but in almost every culture we feel the need to try and save those that are either beyond being saved or are not worth being saved.

It's like the same topic repeats every 6 pages. If you're gonna post here then read the previous pages, because it's likely someone else has made the same post.

This is especially true if you're going to post pro Palestinian propaganda. That has already been dealt with, and are just wasting everyone's time.

Regarding the rally that was posted (in London UK I presume) to end the war on gaza; it is related to pretty much every rally everywhere in the western world. When kosovo declared independence Serbs flooded Toronto streets and lots of other cities in the world to protest. To say things neutrally: I know that a lot of the people there in the rally were kids brainwashed by their parents; "Kosovo is Serbia", etc etc, even though it may well be, the decision was premade for these kids. It has just become a biased nationalistic rally. A large number of these people have grown up in Canada. I meet tons of Croatian jersy wearing, Croatian procliamed ginos who actually only speak english, and their parents left Croatia when they were 2, and for some strange reason now, hate the Serbs? The same goes for the Palestine rallies.

I believe this is what diginut meant when he said, "another self identified palestinian".

Now I'm going to say something that will offend some of you, but, I feel that it needs to be said. I think people are afraid to say it. You can call me racist or whatever, but I'm going to be as general as possible.

If you are shallow enough to be controlled so greatly by religion, then you are easily brainwashed by any other means. This is why things like Hamas happen, and 1993-1995 Bosnia...

Well, all you Palestine backers were too emotional to answer my original questions. But go figure, I found the answer to my question in a NORTH AMERICAN NEWS SOURCE!

Toronto Star says:

"The ceasefire was holding more or less until Nov. 4, when Israel sent its troops into Gaza," said George Giacaman, director of the Program on Democracy and Human Rights at Birzeit University in the West Bank. "In my opinion, this was a deliberate attempt to provoke an attack by Hamas."

If so, it succeeded.

Six Palestinian fighters were killed when Israel sent troops into Gaza early last month to destroy a tunnel it said was to be used to kidnap Israeli soldiers. The following day, militants fired some 40 rockets into Israel, salvoes that claimed no lives but marked the beginning of the end for the tahdia, or lull, that had prevailed since June.


As I understood it, Hamas started firing rockets and broke the ceasefire. I was wrong. According to the Star, Israel broke the ceasefire.

So now that we know who started it, can we all agree that both sides need to stop killing each other?

^^^


I read that too.

this is why I laugh to myself when people slam the media. they choose to ignore the points (like that one) that DON'T 'support' the alleged biased position.

the evil liberal media is suppose to be *so* pro-Israel, yet CLEARLY states in that article that not only did Israel allegedly break the ceasefire first, but is using the Hamas response as political opportunism to escalate the 'war' well beyond what is a rational response.

it's completely fucking useless to debate this issue. people are bashing Yohan, but his original point *absolutely* stands, even if he/I/everyone don't fully comprehend the issues (and NO ONE here does): "both sides are wrong".

there is no "rational" debate going on here. one side is pointing to media sources that aren't credible because the media is NOT without bias or agenda.

what's laughable though is the retort of these little websites, other media outlets that aren't mainstream, etc. AS IF they don't have their own agenda!!!

some reply with "I lived there..."

so fucking what? if you worked in the twin towers, does that automatically give you some remarkable fucking insight into the politics behind 9/11? NO. what it DOES give you is a unique perspective on what it is like to live under particular circumstances. It does not mean that you necessarily have any greater knowledge of or insight into the multi-faceted causes behind, or factors contributing to, the current situation.

most people here are talking out of their asses and do not fully comprehend what is really going on...and I obviously include myself with the 'ignorant' label.

what IS clear is that both sides have *repeatedly* engaged in opportunistic behaviour that serve their own purposes rather than what is "good" and external factors and nations are playing a significant role in this mess.

Very well said, Mark. I agree completely.

There are agendas upon agendas in play, and both domestic and foreign actors. The point has long since past where it was useful to debate "who started it". Everyone wins when people start talking about who will end it. The answer to that is simple - everyone involved must work together to end it. However, it's come down to a game of chicken where neither side wants to blink first. The fact that everyone is blinded by religious pride and fanaticism obviously doesn't help matters.

The sad pawns in the game are the innocent people on both sides of this shitshow.

What's so wrong with living in peace with eachother (this applies anywhere in the world)???? [/naiive wishful thinking]

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Originally posted by pmoisse What's so wrong with living in peace with eachother (this applies anywhere in the world)???? [/naiive wishful thinking]

Peace on Earth is impossible. Although we may not like to think it....wars are necessary...they are a population control measure.

Just the fear of wars leads to new technologies that are not only used in war but in everyday life.

nuke isreal.

Finding a few articles in a mainstream media source that happens to discuss an issue from a different perspective doesn't mean anything. The point is to question and determine an outlets objectivity, regardless of the side it supposedly supports. Unless your suggesting that every news piece released has to be from either the left or the right before you discover an imbalance.

Again you're taking what the Star said as fact. Nothing against the Star, just pointing out the "I read it in the paper so its true" mentality

1 Jan 09:

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Originally posted by dj_souvlaki nuke isreal.

Need to spell the countries name right before you can suggest nuking it.

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Originally posted by InfiniteEclipse 1 Jan 09:

you have no clue how sad this makes me...and i feel disgusted, even with myself for sitting here debating this issue...

no matter how you try to argue or portray it..this shit is not right....and unless you are actually experiencing this bullshit..you have no right to fuckin provide commentary or judge....

yes, i'm pissed...mostly i feel helpless..

Leaked video from Israel Media...

As I mentioned before, no one is usually allowed to take any video or photographs in Gaza, obviously due to the illegal nature of the Israeli army. Often, media personal are killed if found taping near gaza.

Anyways, you will see in the following video some leaked (non censored) media that came out of Israel.



Just remember this is one tiny example, but it gives you an idea how this is not the Israeli Army vs Hamas.. this is the Israeli Army slaughtering Palestinians, along with the destruction of the homes and the theaft of their respect.

U.S Media Has Done A Terrible Job Covering Hamas - Israel
There are many more video's by this guy.

Anas, you can keep posting your clips on and on... people can easily post several from the other side. We know already what goes on. We know your intentions, we know what side you are biased on. Give it a rest.

i will be attending the demonstration tomorrow at dundas square..

putting my money where my mouth is ..so to speak..

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Originally posted by Abercrombie Anas, you can keep posting your clips on and on... people can easily post several from the other side. We know already what goes on. We know your intentions, we know what side you are biased on. Give it a rest.

Abercrombie , I'm not sure why you keep assuming this discussion is about me? you seem to have nothing to say to me other than I should shut up.

And of course my intentions are to show the other side of the story, and I will do so as I please, again i'm not sure why that's such a crime. Regardless, I post in regards to what it is I am passionate about, and at the moment this issue is on top of my list, as it should be to many who care about world politics.

Finally, I will not give it a rest, as long as I have the power to help in any way I can, I will do so. This thread has surpassed 4000 views, this isn't only about those who are debating, but those creeping away


Also, as gummy bear mentioned there will be a demonstration against the Gaza bombings at Young and Dundas Square, 2pm.

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*WHEN: 2pm on Saturday January 3rd, 2009 *WHERE: Yonge-Dundas Square (buses leave Palestine House 1:15pm sharp) Join in demonstrating against the latest Israeli assault on the people of Gaza. At least 400 Palestinians have been killed and at least 1600 have been injured in the on-going assault on the Gaza Strip that began on Saturday. This is the single largest massacre in Gaza since Israel illegally occupied the area in 1967. The numbers of dead are mounting, especially as the already limited medical supplies are running out due to the brutal siege of Gaza since 2005. While the Western media reports that the raids targeted Hamas 'operatives,' the dead include women, children and men in all areas of life in Gaza. "Operation Cast Lead" has echoes of previous Israeli raids into Gaza that have been characterized by indiscriminate attacks on civilian population centers, mass detentions, violent house demolitions and other forms of collective punishment. Such actions need to be strongly and unconditionally condemned. This attack comes just days after the so-called 'ceasefire' between Hamas and Israel expired. During this alleged ceasefire, Israel continued to impose its brutal siege on Gaza, restricting the flow of aid, medical supplies, fuel and other necessities of life into the territory. For the past two years Gaza has been undergoing the daily violence of a wide-ranging humanitarian catastrophe triggered by severely reduced access to energy, food, and medicines. In effect, Gaza is the world's largest open air prison. The UN and others in the international community condemned the humanitarian disaster created by Israel's siege during the time of this 'ceasefire'. Israel now claims that this operation is in response to Hamas refusing to renew this sham of a ceasefire. Once again, Israel is imposing collective punishment on the people of Gaza for electing a Hamas government. Organizers are particularly angered by the Canadian government's on-going support for the Israeli apartheid regime - including the intensification of bilateral military, political and economic links between Canada and Israel. These latest war crimes occurs in the context of official Canadian complicity with and support for Israel's illegal siege and starvation of the civilian population in Gaza. At this moment, we can only reaffirm our commitment in the strongest possible terms to continue mobilizing to respond to the call by over 170 Palestinian civil society organizations for a comprehensive campaign of boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) to end Israeli Apartheid. As H.E. Father Miguel D'Escoto Brockman, President of the United Nations General Assembly state in a recent speech: "More than twenty years ago we in the United Nations took the lead from civil society when we agreed that sanctions were required to provide a nonviolent means of pressuring South Africa to end its violations. Today, perhaps we in the United Nations should consider following the lead of a new generation of civil society, who are calling for a similar non-violent campaign of boycott, divestment and sanctions to pressure Israel to end its violations." CONTACT: Palestine House [email protected] Demonstration Organized By: Palestine House Canadian Arab Federation Women in Solidarity with Palestine (WSP) Not In Our Name (NION): Jewish Voices Opposing Zionism Muslim Association of Hamilton International Jewish anti-Zionist Network � Toronto Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid Muslim Unity Toronto Coalition to Stop the War Independent Jewish Voices Please send further organizational endorsements to: [email protected]

Link/Source:Facebook Event

Anyways, Ladies and gents, I rest my case, I have never posted so much on a forum in my life, gotta get back to the rest of it. Cheers to those who have at least taken what I have presented with an open mind.
peace.

AHHHH the truth finally comes out... You lied about having no sides, and there ya go. It's about you because you insulted everyone. Think twice before you start making things personal.

I've been on your side for a long time. I've probably been much more involved in my past that you have. Then I saw what really goes on. I know your type.

Your hidden agenda is being revealed... You keep bowing out of this thread, yet you keep coming back. People can see right through you.

We know your purpose.

You will keep posting and continuing your long-winded excuses until there is no Israel. You do not believe in co-existence (and don't call me a liar), and you're clearly here to be a shit-disturber hiding behind a veil of innocence.

You clearly deny its existence like I said before, you lie through your teeth about being neutral and such. I liked you as a DJ, but you are revealing another side of you you probably didn't want to reveal.

You came here nowing we are all ill-informed, and you were surprised each time. Each time you were cought, you bowed out and made your exit. When the smoke cleared, you came back. Well I hope you get your wish of your country of Palestine that includes ALL of Israel as well. Your and Hamas's wish will be fulfilled. Will that make you feel better?

Stick to DJing. Good luck on your career. Farewell.

Those are some harsh words AJ..and you know I think ur a super cool dude..

I don't know Anais personally and I don't think you really have a basis for your accusations...but to each his own..

this thread should be closed....there is really no point left to it..

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Originally posted by Anas Attia As I mentioned before, no one is usually allowed to take any video or photographs in Gaza, obviously due to the illegal nature of the Israeli army.

quote:

Often, media personal are killed if found taping near gaza.

Anas' biased view revealed.

.

Some Palestinians would have Fatah back in power rather than Hamas, and I agree with them. Hamas started out as and still is a terrorist organization.

The Israel military deserves just as much blame because they're killing innocent people just like Hamas.

Both sides have their thoughts clouded by the soo many family, friends and fellow people that have died around them. So I can understand their outrage and their unwillingness for peace.

However there's still many who still want peace. There are many Israeli Jews who are opposed to what the government is doing and their zionist agenda, just like there many Palestinians who oppose what Hamas is doing.

The sad thing is that there are many whose voice is not even heard and in the end suffer who just wanna live their lives peacefully.

What really pisses me off is when people judge a country/people as a whole just because of the actions of a few bad ones.

There is no good guy or bad guy here. Both sides deserve equal blame!!!





I'm getting pretty sick and tired of this and at one point I might not even care what happens...anyone else???

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Originally posted by T_ALI I'm getting pretty sick and tired of this and at one point I might not even care what happens...anyone else???

no..i still care...that's why I'm heading to the rally today...i don't give a shit about hamas..or the government of israel....i care about the over 400 people that have died..the over 2000 that have been injured..the 75 children and the 21 women that have been murdered...

Thats really sad. They're probably going to retaliate after this, which in return will spark outrage from Israel.

Both sides have been going at it for years; When is it gonna stop??

Whatever is happening needs to stop asap..........War is always dirty but hey if the right people make the right decisions then things can change.......Right now whats happening is Israel is making people hate them more by the seconds........It would bring nothing but bad things for them in the future not like they havent had it in the past but this time.....Its something thats making them look more bad then the hamas or Palestinians combined together people are protesting all over the world even here in toronto......This needs to stop asap.

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