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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I would imagine that a return to a more traditional Christianity would be an enormous improvement over the evangelical non-sense in the US presently.

Agreed, but that isn't going to happen.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel Agreed, but that isn't going to happen.

But if you dislike the present shift toward more evangelical nut-case church/arenas in the US then you should welcome a return to traditional religions.

So long as we keep voting in blacks and Evangelical leaders keep playing teenage boys like flutes, I think we'll be ok.

I have a feeling that once the current generation is older and done being infatuated with technology and personal wealth, it's going to turn to religion in a big way. But maybe I'm wrong.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I have a feeling that once the current generation is older and done being infatuated with technology and personal wealth, it's going to turn to religion in a big way. But maybe I'm wrong.

In order to have a mass resurgence in religious belief (especially the traditional sects of Christianity) a large scale deterioration of the western quality of life will have to happen. Whether because people who are downtrodden turn to religion for hope or people who are living the good life are too distracted to think much about faith (both are probably true to some extent) religion (especially Christianity) has it's greatest appeal with people who are experiencing some degree of strife.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard But if you dislike the present shift toward more evangelical nut-case church/arenas in the US then you should welcome a return to traditional religions.

Well, I more so favor the shift toward less religious, but that will take a lot more time. I do favor the less evangelical nut-case stuff going on in the US, but changing seems impossible with how fanatical people are here.

I know. My point is that age naturally brings strife -- death of friends and parents, personal illness and anticipation of death, loss of vitality. So I think many people who have lived a carefree surface-level existence based on "fun" and the accumulation of stuff will experience a shock as they hit middle or old age and be forced to take a broader look at their life and sense of purpose. I think many of them will turn to faith as a result.

So you're saying that given the distractions of this current generation compared to the last, people will become that much more disillusioned by the world and state of their existence, they will more often resort to religion for comfort rather than the conveniences of modern, solipsistic living?

I'm really not sure that technology has affected the spiritual dynamic that drastically - not yet, at least. But it's an interesting theory, that's for sure...

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel Well, I more so favor the shift toward less religious, but that will take a lot more time. I do favor the less evangelical nut-case stuff going on in the US, but changing seems impossible with how fanatical people are here.

Clearly we'll differ on this; however, IMO the benefits of the great faiths (even if it is complete bullshit) far outweigh the detriments of same; subsequently, I think we would lose much if religion became increasingly abandoned.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Clearly we'll differ on this; however, IMO the benefits of the great faiths (even if it is complete bullshit) far outweigh the detriments of same; subsequently, I think we would lose much if religion became increasingly abandoned.

But those same values are not dependent on religion. So, while people attribute them to religion, they are not unique to the religious.

I am no fan of the religious at all, but I also see the value in preserving it. It's an inexorable part of the human condition and has been perhaps one of the most consistent, historical components of our species, as well as one of the most signifcant proponents to science and the arts as we know them (at some point).

True, I don't think you must be religious to be "moral", but that doesn't mean I wish for traditions with such an extensive legacy to be completely dashed away from our world.

I think it's more and more common to ignore death in favor of an emphasis on "eternal youth" and remaining "vital" and active into old age. There are two main death-denial mechanisms people use: you can say that death isn't really the end because you'll go to heaven or be reincarnated or whatever -- or you can tell yourself that death is real but doesn't matter, there's no reason to fear it, that what matters is living a fun and full life.

But I think for most people at some point the "eternal youth" illusion breaks and they have to acknowledge the fundamental truth that even if they have lots of fun and memorable experiences in their vital years, eventually they and everyone they love will decay and then die like everyone else before them. And that this will process will probably be quite painful.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I think it's more and more common to ignore death in favor of an emphasis on "eternal youth" and remaining "vital" and active into old age. There are two main death-denial mechanisms people use: you can say that death isn't really the end because you'll go to heaven or be reincarnated or whatever -- or you can tell yourself that death is real but doesn't matter, there's no reason to fear it, that what matters is living a fun and full life. But I think for most people at some point the "eternal youth" illusion breaks and they have to acknowledge the fundamental truth that even if they have lots of fun and memorable experiences in their vital years, eventually they and everyone they love will decay and then die like everyone else before them. And that this will process will probably be quite painful.

I think this is utterly true as well, but I believe it has always been that way. Does modern living offer any more certain of an answer though?

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel But those same values are not dependent on religion. So, while people attribute them to religion, they are not unique to the religious.

Perhaps but they are disproportionately present with the religious.... charitable organizations, for example; battered women's and homeless shelters are mostly administered/funded by religious organizations, same with food banks and public hospitals (we're talking globally here but for the most part it is true even in North America). Would people replace these charitable organizations with non-religiously affiliated ones? One would presume so; however, the very fact that this hasn't happened yet would suggest that this is by no means certain.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I think this is utterly true as well, but I believe it has always been that way. Does modern living offer any more certain of an answer though?

Perhaps his argument is that the frivolity of and desire for youth is more pronounced with the present cohort and thus the search for answers and fulfillment will also be more pronounced when the disillusionment finally hits.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Does modern living offer any more certain of an answer though?

Nope. Eventually technological distractions will come to seem hollow, which is why I think people will return to religion.

Religion attempts to cure fear of death. If humans didn't die, or didn't know they were going to die, religion probably wouldn't even exist.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Religion attempts to cure fear of death. If humans didn't die, or didn't know they were going to die, religion probably wouldn't even exist.

somewhat of a blanket statement don't you think? I know of little in Judaism that seeks to cure the fear of death.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard somewhat of a blanket statement don't you think? I know of little in Judaism that seeks to cure the fear of death.

True, Judaism doesn't have any official teaching on an afterlife. Although it does have ideas about resurrection and such -- just not "official" ones.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Nope. Eventually technological distractions will come to seem hollow, which is why I think people will return to religion.

Well that seems awfully ill-advised.

And I think that you underestimate humanity's propensity towards shoveling faith into all sorts of hollow notions.

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Religion attempts to cure fear of death. If humans didn't die, or didn't know they were going to die, religion probably wouldn't even exist.

Perhaps whatever new method to cope with our mortality we devise shall become a new religion of sorts. I foresee a far more social (though the definition of this is rapidly changing) future in that mass communication will become more accessible to those in certain parts of the world. And by communication, I mean the general interface by which we interact with one another is likely going to shift into a digital sense of reality, over the spiritual.

Religion has, for as long as it's been around, served a very primary and adaptively agreeable need to socialize, fraternize, empathize, etc. within a given sub-group of people unified by behavioural code and a strong appeal to authority. I see this slightly jeopardized by facebook and twitter and virtual realities, where one doesn't need an authority, but the limitations of their bandwidth to define their perimeters for "moral" conduct. Maybe it's not exactly like this or like that, but I believe religion is largely threatened by the possibility of our being scanned and living in the ethers of a universe where we are Gods in our own right.

If anything, I see this furthering the economic gap that despairs certain cultural and ethnic regions, giving rise to more radical, fundamentalist mentalities. When one billion humans on the world can access the internet and relinquish not only earthly possessions, but earthly identities, the rest of the world will be polishing its AK-47s and scrounging for proper hut materials- not to rip off Snow Crash too terribly.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On ...but I believe religion is largely threatened by the possibility of our being scanned and living in the ethers of a universe where we are Gods in our own right.

You mean "uploading" human minds to computer networks? While I suppose that's a theoretical possibility, I think it's also hundreds of years off, assuming it will ever be possible -- and therefore not very relevant to the current young generations.

We're both uploading a part of ourselves as we speak.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On We're both uploading a part of ourselves as we speak.

Sure, we can store some static thoughts, but we're still quite far from figuring out how to get silicon circuitry to duplicate the dynamic activities of a typical biological brain.

No doubt, but regardless of whether or not we will someday be able to scan our minds and leave our bodies (which wasn't strictly what I was referring to), you cannot deny there is a strong tendency for people to live their social lives over the internet anymore. So long as there is money in it (for which there likely always will be), we aren't going to see it going away anytime soon; if anything, it will not only become more popular - it will become the new competence.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Perhaps but they are disproportionately present with the religious.... charitable organizations, for example; battered women's and homeless shelters are mostly administered/funded by religious organizations, same with food banks and public hospitals (we're talking globally here but for the most part it is true even in North America). Would people replace these charitable organizations with non-religiously affiliated ones? One would presume so; however, the very fact that this hasn't happened yet would suggest that this is by no means certain.

Agreed, but only because it has been cultured in our society for hundreds of thousands of years.

As for charities, it depends on what it is. As it pertains to shelters for battered women and the homeless, I totally agree. As to research, quite the contrary. It is mostly funded by private donations and grants from both Education and the government.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel As to research, quite the contrary. It is mostly funded by private donations and grants from both Education and the government.

Research funding is not charity; rather an investment.

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