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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin Oh, I thought it was the Book of Life. -_-

For four months, in 1965, it was a Russian organic chemistry textbook.

quote:

Originally posted by ken_lee how do you know that? can you prove that it is unreasonable to believe in something without evidence?

Very, very easy.

A: reason = ability to think clearly, assess situations properly and make wise decisions.

B: evidence = something which establishes the truth or authenticity of a claim or a phenomenon.

Source: The Danish Dictionary, ordnet.dk

C: Emotions and senses are not reliable to determine authenticity, because we know that our senses can easily be wrong (hallucinations) and that emotions in and of themselves can not convey information about what they mean.

To judge a situation correctly and take a "wise" decision, it is necessary to assess the authenticity of the circumstances. Since evidence is all we have, that can assess the authenticity objectively, they are necessary for reason.

- Another thing entirely is that we can not know 100% for sure with evidence when the evidence must also be interpreted by the senses - but this is not a problem. Nothing can be known 100% sure, but by repeating an experiment again and again, we can get as close as possible, which nothing else can.

quote:

Originally posted by ken_lee "god" as some call it is all around you, you just need to look at it differently.

Pink, invisible unicorns are all around you, you just need to look at it differently. Do you believe in them now?

That is not how it works. Explain to me how they can be perceived.

quote:

Originally posted by Znack Very, very easy. A: reason = ability to think clearly, assess situations properly and make wise decisions. B: evidence = something which establishes the truth or authenticity of a claim or a phenomenon. Source: The Danish Dictionary, ordnet.dk C: Emotions and senses are not reliable to determine authenticity, because we know that our senses can easily be wrong (hallucinations) and that emotions in and of themselves can not convey information about what they mean. To judge a situation correctly and take a "wise" decision, it is necessary to assess the authenticity of the circumstances. Since evidence is all we have, that can assess the authenticity objectively, they are necessary for reason. - Another thing entirely is that we can not know 100% for sure with evidence when the evidence must also be interpreted by the senses - but this is not a problem. Nothing can be known 100% sure, but by repeating an experiment again and again, we can get as close as possible, which nothing else can. Pink, invisible unicorns are all around you, you just need to look at it differently. Do you believe in them now? That is not how it works. Explain to me how they can be perceived.

quote:

Originally posted by Znack quote: Originally posted by EddieZilker I would state that I prefer to view almost any conflict in an analytical fashion. I'm sure you do, it gives you all the answers, and the chance to express your incredible insight into the human psyche. Thanks for pointing out that anyone outraged by terrorist activity, is little more than a grown up abused child, striking back at their wicked step father, or paedophile uncle. Despite you no doubt brilliant analysis, I think I prefer my participative role in the "psycho-drama", to that of the sneering critic in the third row. The one who sits well away from any unpleasant spittle that might fly his way from the stage.

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...18#post10754018

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Originally posted by EddieZilker The real irony is that those whose faith is in logic seem to also be adherent to logic only when it suits their purpose. At all other times, viewing one's opponent through a lens of contempt and interrogating their opinion as though they arose from a child seems, to them, a reasonable approach.

It would seem that you only adhere to your faith when it is convenient for you and dispose of it when it's convenient for you, as well.

quote:

Originally posted by ken_lee its per definition true that the idea of a god exists - therefore god exists.

No. The idea of a god exists, therefore, exists the idea of a god. To think about an object will not make it exist, regardless of how many people think of it. Me thinking that I own a red Ferrari Modena 468, standing outside my house does not make it true.

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Originally posted by ken_lee how could something not existing affect so many?

Very easily, apparently. Again, the fact that many believe in something does not makes it true. Many also believed that once the earth was the galaxy's center. Today there are not many who believe in it. Do you think it means the earth has suddenly become much smaller and has moved to the edge of the Milky Way and the sun changed from rotating around the earth?

Thoughts are just thoughts, not reality. Thoughts can be consistent with reality, but is neither a requirement nor a result of them.

quote:

Originally posted by ken_lee its like a virus, alot of people dont believe in that either because they cant actually see it

Again, faith does not matter. We know viruses exist because we can measure and prove them - not because somebody once said "I think there are viruses!".

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Originally posted by ken_lee the proof that god is present is the fact that the bible is the most sold book of all time.

Harry Potter books also sell quite well. Does Harry Potter then exist?

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Originally posted by ken_lee and to most humans some sort of god is central to their life

No. Belief in a god is central for them. What is central to people's lives has no influence whatsoever on reality.

You are aware that sense and perception are two different things, right? Like, you are (presumably) reading these words... but do they exist? Not the pixels on the screen, but the words, themselves- do they exist? Are they communication? Are they communicating an idea to you, thereby influencing the perception of the conversation?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, here.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker It used to be Atlas Shrugged, but now it's Catcher in the Rye. Gabriel finally got tired of Rand's over-simplified characters and thought Salinger a bit more nuanced.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On You are aware that sense and perception are two different things, right? Like, you are (presumably) reading these words... but do they exist? Not the pixels on the screen, but the words, themselves- do they exist? Are they communication? Are they communicating an idea to you, thereby influencing the perception of the conversation? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, here.

Your words exist as words yet they have no meaning because their is no direct evidence for the existence of their meaning. Individually, they do have meaning - yes - but there is no direct evidence supporting the existence of meaning in the totality of their assemblage. Ergo, your argument is moot.

*Taps Lira back into discussion*




@ Miss Pie:

quote:

Originally posted by Miss Pie

The true irony is that when you look at the mythology Rand was trying to sell, that the people in positions of power presented roadblocks to progress through their own misguided incompetence, and then look at what has been done in the effort to realize Rand's vision for a free-market economy, the United States appears to be living inside a Rand novel the manifestation of which is antithetical Rand's ideal.

How can you believe god is real, but not believe in him? It makes no sense.
That fact that you can feel the actions of others, because they believe in God, is again not an argument for God - it only shows that people believe in him.


No, the world did not get any smaller when we discovered it was not the center. Earth kept exactly the same size as it was before. The only difference was our new knowledge. Only symbolically can we talk about changes in world size.

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Originally posted by ken_lee my GF wants to see harry potter on movie theatre. it affects me directly having to make my dinner myself that night. therefore harry potter isnt just a fantasy - its real.

Again: Harry Potter the movie affects you. The movie is real. People who see and read Harry Potter affect you. Harry Potter himself does not effect you, for he is not real.

quote:

if it wherent for god id never been in a church playing an organ pipe because the church wouldnt be there. not to mention all the war and violence in the world. its real to me.

Again, things that show evidence that there are people who believe in God. It says nothing whatsoever about the existence of God.

Well then we are in agreement. God is an idea. Ideas exist as ideas, but not as real objects. If this really is your only claim - that an idea is an idea - i Don't disagree.

Re: God

quote:

Originally posted by chlola Do you believe in God? If so... please explain to me why he lets a 17 year old boy with a heart of gold, die of liver failure the day before his senior prom ....

Well, if there were a God, surely it is no more likely that he's the kind, caring type than say, the pernicious, malevolent variety. No?

Re: Re: God

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Well, if there were a God, surely it is no more likely that he's the kind, caring type than say, the pernicious, malevolent variety. No?

Reason why I reckon dystheism and maltheism are more plausible hypotheses than the plain-vanilla (eu)theism most people seem to espouse in Abrahamic religions.

Re: Re: God

God hates all of us and will send us all to Hell when we die.

Re: God

quote:

Originally posted by chlola Do you believe in God? If so... please explain to me why he lets a 17 year old boy with a heart of gold, die of liver failure the day before his senior prom ....

In retrospect, God is simply LOVE, not a 'he' who makes any decisions...


"Yielding means inner acceptance of what is. You are open to life. When you yield internally, when you surrender, a new dimension of consciousness opens up. Circumstances and people then become helpful, cooperative. Coincidences happen. If no action is possible, you rest in the peace and inner stillness that come with surrender." -Eckhart T.

i do not believe in god or the way to control people aka religion

quote:

Originally posted by ken_lee dont u believe in government and society either?

It's hard not to believe society exists when society is just a short word for "a bunch of people around you" and there is, in fact, a bunch of people around me.

I used not to believe in government, then I stopped paying my taxes and found out it does believe I exist, and is very good at demanding retribution.

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Originally posted by ken_lee dont u believe in government and society either?

Nope.

Government = corruption
Society = brainwashed sheep

Wow, never thought of it that way!

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Wow, never thought of it that way!

Me neither! Since I heard about it, my mind's been bulging with new ideas. What do you think we should call people if they're actually brainwashed sheep? How about "sheeple"? I kind of like the way that sounds!

Sheeeeeeeeple!

A concept.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Me neither! Since I heard about it, my mind's been bulging with new ideas. What do you think we should call people if they're actually brainwashed sheep? How about "sheeple"? I kind of like the way that sounds! Sheeeeeeeeple!

You do a study to back up your new hypothesis on what "people" actually are, now that we know the government and society do not exist. See if you can get it published before proof of God's existence.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam You do a study to back up your new hypothesis on what "people" actually are, now that we know the government and society do not exist. See if you can get it published before proof of God's existence.

Actually, publishing all three at the same time would be much more awesome: I'd get to say what people really are and that the government and society don't exist but God does!

I'm totally going to add a chapter about Chem Trails and 9/11!

Actually, I'm going to make it a novel and I'm going to call the protagonist Ashleigh Williams!

...

Wait, this is actually a good idea! Can you imagine how epic a novel this would turn out to be?!

I stumbled upon this a few minutes ago and immediately thought of this thread.

quote:

TRANSCENDENTAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. PRESUPPOSITIONALIST (I) (1) If reason exists then God exists. (2) Reason exists. (3) Therefore, God exists. COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. FIRST CAUSE ARGUMENT (I) (1) If I say something must have a cause, it has a cause. (2) I say the universe must have a cause. (3) Therefore, the universe has a cause. (4) Therefore, God exists. ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I) (1) I define God to be X. (2) Since I can conceive of X, X must exist. (3) Therefore, God exists. ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II) (1) I can conceive of a perfect God. (2) One of the qualities of perfection is existence. (3) Therefore, God exists. MODAL ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (1) God is either necessary or unnecessary. (2) God is not unnecessary, therefore God must be necessary. (3) Therefore, God exists. ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN, a.k.a. GOD OF THE GAPS, a.k.a. TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I) (1) Check out the world/universe/giraffe. Isn't it complex? (2) Only God could have made them so complex. (3) Therefore, God exists. ARGUMENT FROM BEAUTY, a.k.a. DESIGN/TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II) (1) Isn't that baby/sunset/flower/tree beautiful? (2) Only God could have made them so beautiful. (3) Therefore, God exists. ARGUMENT FROM MIRACLES (I) (1) My aunt had cancer. (2) The doctors gave her all these horrible treatments. (3) My aunt prayed to God and now she doesn't have cancer. (4) Therefore, God exists. MORAL ARGUMENT (I) (1) Person X, a well-known atheist, was morally inferior to the rest of us. (2) Therefore, God exists. MORAL ARGUMENT (II) (1) In my younger days I was a cursing, drinking, smoking, gambling, child-molesting, thieving, murdering, bed-wetting bastard. (2) That all changed once I became religious. (3) Therefore, God exists. ARGUMENT FROM CREATION, a.k.a. ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (I) (1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists. (2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable. (3) Therefore, God exists. ARGUMENT FROM FEAR (1) If there is no God then we're all going to not exist after we die. (2) I'm afraid of that. (3) Therefore, God exists. ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE (1) [arbitrary passage from OT] (2) [arbitrary passage from NT] (3) Therefore, God exists. ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE (1) Look, there's really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid atheists; it's too complicated for you to understand. God exists whether you like it or not. (2) Therefore, God exists. ARGUMENT FROM UNINTELLIGENCE (1) Okay, I don't pretend to be as intelligent as you guys � you're obviously very well read. But I read the Bible, and nothing you say can convince me that God does not exist. I feel him in my heart, and you can feel him too, if you'll just ask him into your life. "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish from the earth." John 3:16. (2) Therefore, God exists. ARGUMENT FROM BELIEF (1) If God exists, then I should believe in Him. (2) I believe in God. (3) Therefore, God exists. ARGUMENT FROM INTIMIDATION, a.k.a. TOMAS DE TORQUEMADA'S ARGUMENT (1) See this bonfire? (2) Therefore, God exists.

And hundreds more here ---> http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

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