TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Music Discussion
-- Did Ferry Corsten killed trance?
Pages (12): « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12]

quote:

Originally posted by Zombie0915 alright, I can come up with a couple songs off the top of my head, that some people sonsider epic style, but doesn't quite fit in to this "definition" "How can anyone take this trite, derivative garbage seriously? What the hell is this, anyway. It's bombastic melodrama; a pompous, over-the-top, monstrously grotesque caricature of what trance used to be. The final betrayel. Trance is dead. Ferry Corsten killed it." It seems like you want an example of some epic trance songs that aren't pompous, over-the-top, obnoxious, what have you. Now this is kind of hard because ideas like pompous, over-the-top, and grotesque caricature are subjective terms, any song I give can be judged as pompous or not depending on each person's point of view. But I still have a few ideas, PvD - Nothin but You this one can fit that idea, as you have already said I also find that PvD - Forbidden Fruit is an epic trancer that isn't pompous, it has a lot of emotion, so it can be argued that is is a "grotesque caricature of what trance used to be", since trance used to not have such emotion in it, but one can counter this argument by saying that this track is not grotesque, a songs "grotesqueness" canot be measured objectively. I find that this isn't a pompous track though, it almost has a humble vibe to it actually. Another tune which could qualify is Salt Tank - Eugina, another epic track, but even people with a highly developed taste for EDM find this one pleasing to hear. The classification of this track as epic is arguable, so is any sort of over-the-top factor. Subjective ideas, so if you really want to beleive ishkurs definition badly enough, you can just say "this track is pompous." If you judge the music for yourself, you might come to a different conclusion.

I think this has more to do with definition of epic trance (particularly Dutch) than it does with finding Dutch epic which isn't pompous and over-the-top. Some people will say there are pompous tracks within epic, whereas others will say that all Dutch epic trance is pompous and overblown, considering this a separate subgenre. I would go in the latter group, because I think the dividing trademark of Dutch epic trance IS overblown anthems with ridiculously long breakdowns. Take that away and it's just epic trance (like Forbidden Fruit), not Dutch. Eugina I wouldn't even call epic trance -- instead balearic trance or epic house -- so it's very dependent on the definitions people use.

Still, I think Dutch epic trance can be both its signature overblown self AND be good, but only on rare occasions, such as in Tenshi and Armin's 2000-01 work. It seems one of the most difficult trance genres to pull off effectively, actually. The problem isn't with the genre itself, but that it's enormously difficult to make, and legions of people with relatively little skill have taken on production. It's like high school watercolorists attempting to make Renaissance frescos.

quote:

How about Tiesto vs Junkie XL - Obsession This one is most definately a dutch trancer, because tiesto had a hand in it.

Obsession is textbook progressive trance, not epic, and Junkie XL had more to do with its production than Tiesto.

Nothing But You I'm really on the fence about. I think it's too abrasive to be Dutch, which is much more melodic and orchestral. In addition, its breakdown isn't extraordinarily long compared to most Dutch.

boy if i was ferry corsten...seeing threads talking about my responsibility for the destruction of a genre would really make me wanna stop by and say hello

quote:

Originally posted by Sykonee That's about it in a nutshell, really. Of course, a breakdown here and there is fine, but not song after song. It just kills the flow of the rhythm. That's just my taste, mind. I'm sure there are those who enjoy breakdowns every 5-8 minutes just fine, even look forward to them. More the power to them.

I completely agree. Maybe there are parties that thrive on constant breakdowns, but I sure as hell haven't seen them.

Occasional insane breakdowns can work, but I find that track after track of them kill a party. Fast.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Laher ferry did not kill trance Just listen to indigo, kyoto, sublime and cubikated and then tell me if he killed trance.

You don't understand.

Ferry is one of the few people who can make effective Dutch trance. Not many can. But the defining features of Dutch trance are antithetical and opposite to those of trance in its original form.

The genres themselves are value neutral. It's just that Dutch thrives off the very features that its root genre disavows. Ishkur phrases this as Ferry "killing" trance to highlight the irony of it, purely satirical.

Ferry's Up Coming Book

quote:

Originally posted by Blue Balls If you were to ask them to defind dutch epic trance, what are examples of good and shit dutch epic trance, and what they think of the genre currently you would get a variety of intellegent answers. It was only recently that I read cobalt,Ian, and torontotrance say some very interesting things on the topic.

Aw, thanks. I just post here because no one else in my real life gives much of a sh�t about the music I like.

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt Aw, thanks. I just post here because no one else in my real life gives much of a sh�t about the music I like.

that's what ta is here for

quote:

Originally posted by Alexan Ferry's Up Coming Book

they've spelt oakenfold worng.

quote:

Originally posted by JakeC they've spelt oakenfold worng.

correction, I spelt oakenfold wrong

and you spelt wrong wrong

quote:

Originally posted by Alexan correction, I spelt oakenfold wrong

lol

quote:

Originally posted by JakeC lol

yeah well I did it in like 2 minutes out of boredom so I didn't pay much attention when I did that thing in paint!

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Classic trance is very simplistic and repetitive. Epic trance actually has more musical merit than classic trance.

So you're saying musical merit is based on how "complex" music is? Does minimal techno have less musical merit than trance then? Tech-House has more musical merit than Glitch House maybe? What the hell are you talking about? I should probably just leave it at that since your very premise that less complex music has less "merit" is faulty and it doesn't matter how simple or complex Classic Trance was, but i'll go on.

Now on to the simplistic part. If you've heard many Classic Trance songs you'll notice that none have less than 5 "tracks" (a repeating melodic or percussive segment other than the kick and hi-hats--mostly melodic since we're talking about trance here) that are played synchronously in at least one part of the track if not most of it. You'll also notice that Epic Trance averages no more than 6 usually. All trance songs average about 5-7+ individual "tracks" running at the same time in a given section of a given song. 6 and 7+ usually only on GOA/psy songs. I purposely listened to the four most simple Classic Trance songs i've ever heard, and only one had no more than 4 "tracks" playing at once in any given section of the song. House music averages about 3-5 "tracks" playing at once in the busiest section of a song. Techno about 1-4. Classic Trance is every bit as complicated as Epic.

But you say the melodies are more complex in epic trance. Well that depends. Is complexity simply the chord progression changing notes for more bars before repeating? Or is complexity several relatively repetitive melodies being added, removed, replaced, and synchronized at proper intervals and due time complex? I think either. Epic trance is complex because of the former and Classic because of the latter. The difference being when you incorporate the former, the latter becomes nullified, therefore losing the original repetitive intent of the music. You don't think Classic Trance producers knew how to vary the notes on their melodies so that they weren't more repetitive? They did. Epic trance producers didn't invent the idea of melodies in music lasting for long periods of time without repeating. Classic trance producers made the music that way because that was how it was supposed to be. It was what it was supposed to be, therefore it had merit. Since it has turned into something that is no longer what it was supposed to be, Epic Trance, it has no merit.

quote:

For all the talk of pop melodies and pop elements (as if breakdowns are pop), everyone fails to realise that this actually could be a good thing.

No it can't. All popular music does is take small things from its root genre and add things which appeal to more people and take away from the original intent of the music.

quote:

Classic trance is unrefined, rough and in a lot of cases very weak music. It may have cut the mustard in 1992, but thirteen years and countless musical and technological developments since, it sounds very dated.

Countless musical and technological developments since 1992 huh. Oh, you mean the advent of the JP-8000. Is it really an advancement more than something that creates a different sound? It makes super sawtooth waves in trance music. Now how is that sawtooth more advanced than the one that comes from a 303 for example? It's not, in fact it's worse because it's never arpeggiated when it's used often as the lead synth, and when it's not the lead it's of course washing behind a blaring epic trance melody lasting god knows how many bars. Accordingly, all trance is based on arpeggiated melody and 99% of trance songs contain it. Okay, 100% have it, else it would not be trance. Anyway, that's why what I explained in the middle part of this paragraph is bad.

Oh, and you must think highly of your evolved trance music. Your "technical developments" haven't seemed to affect in any significant way, say, Deep House since 1992{or earlier}, and certain types of Techno since the mid 90's. Those genres must be immune to the advent of super sound technology or something.

quote:

It's ridiculous to assume that all breakdowns are bad, all melodies are pop and that all classic trance was good. A lot of it was absolute shite, just as a lot of modern trance is.

Not all melodies are pop. All epic trance melodies are pop. Not all classic trance was good trance. All epic trance is bad trance. Not all epic trance is bad. Hope that explains something. Likely it won't sink in this time either.

quote:

Anyone who thinks that melodies are bad things is obviously a very boring sod indeed.

I like melody. That's why I listen to Trance.

quote:

Not all epic trance melodies are massive, not all of them are pop and some of them are very subtle indeed.

Most of them are.

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt I completely agree. Maybe there are parties that thrive on constant breakdowns, but I sure as hell haven't seen them. Occasional insane breakdowns can work, but I find that track after track of them kill a party. Fast.

You've just been going to the wrong parties then mate

viva la London trance scene!!

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt I think this has more to do with definition of epic trance (particularly Dutch) than it does with finding Dutch epic which isn't pompous and over-the-top. Some people will say there are pompous tracks within epic, whereas others will say that all Dutch epic trance is pompous and overblown, considering this a separate subgenre. I would go in the latter group, because I think the dividing trademark of Dutch epic trance IS overblown anthems with ridiculously long breakdowns. Take that away and it's just epic trance (like Forbidden Fruit), not Dutch. Eugina I wouldn't even call epic trance -- instead balearic trance or epic house -- so it's very dependent on the definitions people use. Still, I think Dutch epic trance can be both its signature overblown self AND be good, but only on rare occasions, such as in Tenshi and Armin's 2000-01 work. It seems one of the most difficult trance genres to pull off effectively, actually. The problem isn't with the genre itself, but that it's enormously difficult to make, and legions of people with relatively little skill have taken on production. It's like high school watercolorists attempting to make Renaissance frescos. Obsession is textbook progressive trance, not epic, and Junkie XL had more to do with its production than Tiesto. Nothing But You I'm really on the fence about. I think it's too abrasive to be Dutch, which is much more melodic and orchestral. In addition, its breakdown isn't extraordinarily long compared to most Dutch.

Another quality post. I agree 100%

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt You don't understand. Ferry is one of the few people who can make effective Dutch trance. Not many can. But the defining features of Dutch trance are antithetical and opposite to those of trance in its original form. The genres themselves are value neutral. It's just that Dutch thrives off the very features that its root genre disavows. Ishkur phrases this as Ferry "killing" trance to highlight the irony of it, purely satirical.

Beautifully said

quote:

Originally posted by muckluck So you're saying musical merit is based on how "complex" music is? Does minimal techno have less musical merit than trance then? Tech-House has more musical merit than Glitch House maybe? What the hell are you talking about? I should probably just leave it at that since your very premise that less complex music has less "merit" is faulty and it doesn't matter how simple or complex Classic Trance was, but i'll go on. Now on to the simplistic part. If you've heard many Classic Trance songs you'll notice that none have less than 5 "tracks" (a repeating melodic or percussive segment other than the kick and hi-hats--mostly melodic since we're talking about trance here) that are played synchronously in at least one part of the track if not most of it. You'll also notice that Epic Trance averages no more than 6 usually. All trance songs average about 5-7+ individual "tracks" running at the same time in a given section of a given song. 6 and 7+ usually only on GOA/psy songs. I purposely listened to the four most simple Classic Trance songs i've ever heard, and only one had no more than 4 "tracks" playing at once in any given section of the song. House music averages about 3-5 "tracks" playing at once in the busiest section of a song. Techno about 1-4. Classic Trance is every bit as complicated as Epic. But you say the melodies are more complex in epic trance. Well that depends. Is complexity simply the chord progression changing notes for more bars before repeating? Or is complexity several relatively repetitive melodies being added, removed, replaced, and synchronized at proper intervals and due time complex? I think either. Epic trance is complex because of the former and Classic because of the latter. The difference being when you incorporate the former, the latter becomes nullified, therefore losing the original repetitive intent of the music. You don't think Classic Trance producers knew how to vary the notes on their melodies so that they weren't more repetitive? They did. Epic trance producers didn't invent the idea of melodies in music lasting for long periods of time without repeating. Classic trance producers made the music that way because that was how it was supposed to be. It was what it was supposed to be, therefore it had merit. Since it has turned into something that is no longer what it was supposed to be, Epic Trance, it has no merit. No it can't. All popular music does is take small things from its root genre and add things which appeal to more people and take away from the original intent of the music. Countless musical and technological developments since 1992 huh. Oh, you mean the advent of the JP-8000. Is it really an advancement more than something that creates a different sound? It makes super sawtooth waves in trance music. Now how is that sawtooth more advanced than the one that comes from a 303 for example? It's not, in fact it's worse because it's never arpeggiated when it's used often as the lead synth, and when it's not the lead it's of course washing behind a blaring epic trance melody lasting god knows how many bars. Accordingly, all trance is based on arpeggiated melody and 99% of trance songs contain it. Okay, 100% have it, else it would not be trance. Anyway, that's why what I explained in the middle part of this paragraph is bad. Oh, and you must think highly of your evolved trance music. Your "technical developments" haven't seemed to affect in any significant way, say, Deep House since 1992{or earlier}, and certain types of Techno since the mid 90's. Those genres must be immune to the advent of super sound technology or something. Not all melodies are pop. All epic trance melodies are pop. Not all classic trance was good trance. All epic trance is bad trance. Not all epic trance is bad. Hope that explains something. Likely it won't sink in this time either. I like melody. That's why I listen to Trance. Most of them are.

Wow, I think I got smarter after reading this. Good job.

I haven't replied this thread yet

Did Ferry kill trance? It's a joke or what? :rolleeyes:

Ferry has definitely brought a new breath of life on trance. This man is a more than a genius..

R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

quote:

Originally posted by muckluck [Post Content Here]

Very nice post.

quote:

Originally posted by muckluck So you're saying musical merit is based on how "complex" music is? Does minimal techno have less musical merit than trance then? Tech-House has more musical merit than Glitch House maybe? What the hell are you talking about? I should probably just leave it at that since your very premise that less complex music has less "merit" is faulty and it doesn't matter how simple or complex Classic Trance was, but i'll go on. Now on to the simplistic part. If you've heard many Classic Trance songs you'll notice that none have less than 5 "tracks" (a repeating melodic or percussive segment other than the kick and hi-hats--mostly melodic since we're talking about trance here) that are played synchronously in at least one part of the track if not most of it. You'll also notice that Epic Trance averages no more than 6 usually. All trance songs average about 5-7+ individual "tracks" running at the same time in a given section of a given song. 6 and 7+ usually only on GOA/psy songs. I purposely listened to the four most simple Classic Trance songs i've ever heard, and only one had no more than 4 "tracks" playing at once in any given section of the song. House music averages about 3-5 "tracks" playing at once in the busiest section of a song. Techno about 1-4. Classic Trance is every bit as complicated as Epic. But you say the melodies are more complex in epic trance. Well that depends. Is complexity simply the chord progression changing notes for more bars before repeating? Or is complexity several relatively repetitive melodies being added, removed, replaced, and synchronized at proper intervals and due time complex? I think either. Epic trance is complex because of the former and Classic because of the latter. The difference being when you incorporate the former, the latter becomes nullified, therefore losing the original repetitive intent of the music. You don't think Classic Trance producers knew how to vary the notes on their melodies so that they weren't more repetitive? They did. Epic trance producers didn't invent the idea of melodies in music lasting for long periods of time without repeating. Classic trance producers made the music that way because that was how it was supposed to be. It was what it was supposed to be, therefore it had merit. Since it has turned into something that is no longer what it was supposed to be, Epic Trance, it has no merit. No it can't. All popular music does is take small things from its root genre and add things which appeal to more people and take away from the original intent of the music. Countless musical and technological developments since 1992 huh. Oh, you mean the advent of the JP-8000. Is it really an advancement more than something that creates a different sound? It makes super sawtooth waves in trance music. Now how is that sawtooth more advanced than the one that comes from a 303 for example? It's not, in fact it's worse because it's never arpeggiated when it's used often as the lead synth, and when it's not the lead it's of course washing behind a blaring epic trance melody lasting god knows how many bars. Accordingly, all trance is based on arpeggiated melody and 99% of trance songs contain it. Okay, 100% have it, else it would not be trance. Anyway, that's why what I explained in the middle part of this paragraph is bad. Oh, and you must think highly of your evolved trance music. Your "technical developments" haven't seemed to affect in any significant way, say, Deep House since 1992{or earlier}, and certain types of Techno since the mid 90's. Those genres must be immune to the advent of super sound technology or something. Not all melodies are pop. All epic trance melodies are pop. Not all classic trance was good trance. All epic trance is bad trance. Not all epic trance is bad. Hope that explains something. Likely it won't sink in this time either. I like melody. That's why I listen to Trance. Most of them are.

The amount of studio tracks filled on a track does not equate to musical complexity, especially when the bulk of those tracks comprise of extremely simplistic and short sequences looped in an attempt to mimick depth. When you remove the percussion tracks, you are left with the bassline and a lot of layers of what is essentially crap, and a melody. Epic trance removes the crap from the equation and increases the complexity of the melodies.

As for the technologic advancements comment, I didn't mean the introduction of super-saws. To be honest, I don't give a shit about super-saws. That's just another instrument the melody is played in. But I can give you hundreds of examples. Take any producer who has been producing since the early 90s and was or is still at it in the 00s. The Prodigy are a good example. Play any old and new track and you can tell which is old just from the production values. And if you want to try the "they're got better at their instruments" argument, just take any style of music that is still going strong. It's instantly obvious that newer tracks have better production. Don't even bother trying to disagree, because you'll be plainly wrong.

And we have the old chestnut. "It isn't good trance". Excuse me? Is progressive house less "good" house because it doesn't sound like the primordial post-disco stuff of the early 80s? Did people claim that acid house was musically lacking because it achieved different goals to earlier house music? When electro was put to hip-hop did Kraftwerk fans complain that it wasn't "good" electro because it was actually evolving its sound? If a genre evolves and has stylistic changes, you may not like where it's going, but that's subjective taste. It isn't factually any less accomplished as music.

Not only did Ferry "killed" trance, he also "killed" teh everything.

Micro-piglets are stalking the tranceaddict forums.

I am listening to dead music.

quote:

You might be able to create some correlation between those who know alot about music and those who dislike trance here on TA, but in real life this just doesn't stand up, and even a few of the biggest elitiests on here have admitted that.

who are the biggest elitists on this site? i been away for awhile...

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.