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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Actually, the current doctrine of the Roman Catholic church is that you do have a personal relationship with God and that you are able to express that relationship without the physical church itself, however, participation in the sacrament of the Eucerist is an affirmation of your relationship with God and it is through this that we are made new (forgiven our sins). Therefore it is not necessary to go to church but you may want to stop by for communion before you die. I agree with you that if the Vatican were in possession of anything that would disrupt the status quo they would not release it, however, in addition to the obvious selfish money reasons there are other valid reasons. Imagine if a billion Roman Catholics all of a suddon were told that what the church had been telling them for centuries was wrong. Additionally, all the protestant sects would have to acknowledge that if Roman Catholocism is wrong then so are we as we are based on it. Not only would people abandon the church but they would also question everything that is a derivative of the church. This would be especially true in the less enlightened societies. In those areas chaos would likely abound as the entire authority structure and legal system is largely based on christian morality. Important changes have to be made slowly when you're talking about something as large as the spirituality of 3 billion people.

This is something I don't get. Give me a verse that says one must take communion for salvation. Jesus says, "Do this in remembrance of me", not do this to be saved. I think communion is important as an act of obedience to God, as is baptism, but there isn't any scripture that says they are necessary for salvation.

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Originally posted by trancaholic ITS NOT A THEORY!!!! its a fact!! if u look in the internet u see a lot of proof,

eh, i don't consider the internet as valid source...

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I believe the parts of the bible that are coroborated by the historical record and my understanding of God. Like I said earlier, to believe that what exists today is exactly what was revealed by God shows a total lack of critical thought. Even the most devout priests and ministers would not argue that.

What are you saying God is a liar? If god is all knowing than he can see into the future, why would he write the bible knowing that man would change everything into a bunch of lies???? Wouldn't he write it better so it would flow perfectly? Well guess what, he did! That's why the bible is exactly what God meant to say. If he can't interfere in the lives of man at all, wouldn't him writing the bible through them be interfering with them??? No, he guided them as he continued to guide them in creating the entire bible as he intended it. Plus there are a lot of holy people who would disagree with you!



Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience; . . . Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know. ~ James Barr

WE DENY that Biblical infallibility and inerrancy are limited to spiritual, religious, or redemptive themes, exclusive of assertions in the fields of history and science. We further deny that scientific hypotheses about earth history may properly be used to overturn the teaching of Scripture on creation and the flood. ~ Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy

We assert that Moses spoke in the literal sense, not allegorically or figuratively, i.e., that the world, with all its creatures, was created within six days, as the words read. If we do not comprehend the reason for this, let us remain pupils and leave the job of teacher to the Holy Spirit. ~ Martin Luther

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The Vedicts are the earliest in a series of holy texts that make up the basis for the Hindu religion.... they predate the old testimate by approximately 1500 years. Hindus would contend that God inspired man to write the Vedics just the same as Christians say God inspired man to write the bible. Unless you know what is writen in the Vedics you cannot dismiss them as not being the word of God. I have studied them and I accept them as being the word of God and the same God that inspired the bible. Different words, same God because revealing himself to different people required different stories.

But they're not Christians. The only way you can acheive salvation and go to heaven is through God's son, Christ! Did Jesus die on the cross for them??? Did he??



I don't think so. THat's why they aren't going to get saved. God makes it very clear in the bible taht the only way to get to heaven is through my man jesus. If you don't believe in that then you might as well not beleive in the bible at all ... but then you'd definetely go to hell ... do not pass go ... go directly to hell.

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An athiest believes there is no god, gods, higher power, spiritual force, etc. Believe in any god/higher power means that one is not an athiest. Therefore while Hitler was not a christian (despite his Lutheran batism) he was also not an athiest.

Hitler did not believe God. The Christian God. THe ONLY GOD!!! Doesn't matter what else he believed in (Evolution!) he's an atheist for all intents and pruposes. You better belief he certainly went to hell (for teh killings yes probably, but DEFINETELY for not believing in God and believing in evolution!)

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Originally posted by trancaholic ITS NOT A THEORY!!!! its a fact!! if u look in the internet u see a lot of proof, disovery channel has programs too - but go ahead - be one off the stupid ppl fooled! bet bush is laffing real hard at u

I had better change my belief system! The internet has contradictory information to my faith! And the Discovery Channel too! I bet Bush is reading this right now, and laughing his ass off!

well she wrote back and got defensive. lol but i mean she's not like all mad at me.


she's acting like she didn't act the way she did.


like, "i wasn't saying i was going to push my views on him, i was just saying that bla bla bla"


i can't win. it's like does she think i imagined the way she was talking about it? she was so riled up about it, like she was on a mission to convert the kid, but now she's saying that she was just going to get him a few books and she had no intension of stirring anything up.

yea OK!

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seriously, they have proof!!!1 stop being ignorant and deny the obvious

um no buddy your wrong

the temple knights protected the holy grail. they were true SERVANTS of jesus so i dont think they would bertray him by taking over the world. maybe you should try reserching some histroy sometime????

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Originally posted by Renegade LOL i know. morans like him will beleive ANY crazy theories there told

Just like believing in organized religion as having a fundamentally sound basis without proof?

Note - I challenge anyone to find me a debate where evolutionists have defeated a creationist, clearly.

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Originally posted by trancaholic renegade and occrider: ur making good points. but toobad for u the bible is a frought!!! it is written by some group called the temple nights and they use it to control all the stupid ppl in the wordl. bush is a temple night think, about it!

You got that from that foolish book. Dan Brown is teh devil's mouthpeice. He likes to spread his lies and PROPOGANDA to make people atheists. Bush is not an atheist. He's a good christian! I can see thru your dirty tricks. Dont' try to tempt me, it won't work.

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Originally posted by UWM Just like believing in organized religion as having a fundamentally sound basis without proof?

In this case I actually have to agree with him. It's one thing to not believe in God, but to believe conspiracy theories, based on the internet, is the most foolish of options.

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Originally posted by NiteMer Note - I challenge anyone to find me a debate where evolutionists have defeated a creationist, clearly.

that obviously works both ways...that in itself doesn't prove anything either way...

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Originally posted by Renegade um no buddy your wrong the temple knights protected the holy grail. they were true SERVANTS of jesus so i dont think they would bertray him by taking over the world. maybe you should try reserching some histroy sometime????

dude, look in the bibel, full of betrayal! you just pwned yourself!!! n000b!!!

some ppl just never gets it, idiots =/

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Originally posted by NiteMer In this case I actually have to agree with him. It's one thing to not believe in God, but to believe conspiracy theories, based on the internet, is the most foolish of options.

So is evolution a "conspiracy theory"?

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Originally posted by UWM So is evolution a "conspiracy theory"?

Yeah dude, creationism is where it's at... did you read "Angels & Demons?"

i have hairy armpits.

Renegade and Occrider - Although I agree with your reasoning and idealogy, I would consider a different tactic when debating these issues. You aren't going to change anyone's mind by telling them they are going to burn in hell, or by getting worked up and attacking their idealogy. You have to debate the issues intelligently and allow individuals to make their own decision. God wouldn't want it any other way, as he really determines the end result.

so a topic about religion has turned into a flame war...how odd

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Originally posted by DJ RJT Yeah dude, creationism is where it's at... did you read "Angels & Demons?"

At what point in any of my posts did I reference Dan Brown or anything he has written?

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Originally posted by UWM So is evolution a "conspiracy theory"?

No. I'd be a fool to call it that. It's a scientific theory. I don't align myself with it, but I would not call someone stupid for believing it. Ideas of the bible being a big conspiracy by the Temple Knights, in my mind, is idiotic. I guess I won't even call someone stupid for believing that, but I'll sure laugh at it. I'm not trying to push anyone to believe things the way that I do, merely discussing. I find these discussions to be stimulating.

On another note - You coming out for GDF or what foo?!

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Originally posted by NiteMer You aren't going to change anyone's mind by telling them they are going to burn in hell

wasn't that the primary tactic of the church through out history? it seems like it was pretty effective...

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Originally posted by Slylee i have hairy armpits.

Disgusting!

Rob - I think he's talking about the Temple Knights thing, not anything you were arguing.

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Originally posted by Floorfiller wasn't that the primary tactic of the church through out history? it seems like it was pretty effective...

Not really. In this day and age that kind of a tactic will not work, and it's not the point of the Bible at all. So, dually, it's not the right approach.

well i don't know about the rest of you, but i know *i* am going to heaven... i have proof!

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Originally posted by l�cid well i don't know about the rest of you, but i know *i* am going to heaven... i have proof!

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Originally posted by NiteMer No. I'd be a fool to call it that. It's a scientific theory. I don't align myself with it, but I would not call someone stupid for believing it. Ideas of the bible being a big conspiracy by the Temple Knights, in my mind, is idiotic. I guess I won't even call someone stupid for believing that, but I'll sure laugh at it. I'm not trying to push anyone to believe things the way that I do, merely discussing. I find these discussions to be stimulating.

seriously, have you ever read all the proof they have?! if not i can show you im sure i can convert you cause i know im rihgt!!!!

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