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-- Israeli air strikes on Gaza kill 192
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| Originally posted by Krypton What you left out is the very real grievances with which the Palestinians have. Namely, the blockade. I view, as would most countries, a blockade to be an act of war. So whatever retaliation Gaza's rulers have undertaken is justified. I'm not going to fall for this, "The Palestinians are just blood thirsty killers" argument. |
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| Originally posted by IlanG You are setting new levels of stupidity and ignorance. Hamas is not firing rockets at Israel because the latter put a blockade on Gaza. It is the other way around: Israel put the blockade because Hamas was firing rockets at Israel. Hamas is firing rockets at Israel for 8 years now, Israel (and Egypt) deployed the blockade in June 2007. |
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| Originally posted by Krypton Israel initiated a blockade in response to Hamas's takeover of the Gaza Strip. |
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r Some 'moral clarity' for those that can't shake the Palestinian propaganda machine... >>Source<< |
...Hamas can only fight Israel through assymetrical warfare. You idiots expect them to fight on the open field of battle?! LOL. I love it how you Zionist propaganda constantly reiterates Hamas's supposed doctrinal use of civilian shields and that is the cause of all these civilian deaths. And you people eat it right up. The fact is...there is no separating civilians from a battlefield and mere thought that that is even possible is completely stupefying on so many levels.
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| Originally posted by IlanG Keep saying that to yourself. |
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| Hamas seized control of Gaza in June in a brief war, routing the rival Western-backed forces of Fatah. After the takeover, Israel sealed its border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that the Fatah forces had fled and were no longer providing security on the other side. Israel, like the United States and the European Union, lists Hamas as a terrorist group and will not deal with it. Israel also decided to press Hamas by admitting to Gaza only the minimum amount of goods required to avert a hunger or health crisis among its 1.5 million people, and prohibiting most exports. Israel contends that its approach is working. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/14/w...deast.html?_r=1 |
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| Originally posted by Krypton "Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis -- 6,464 launched from Gaza in the last three years -- deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people." LOLLLLLLLL Apparently, they failed to contact the 600 people who've already been killed, nevermind that they hardly have ELECTRICITY or PHONE SERVICE... ...Hamas can only fight Israel through assymetrical warfare. You idiots expect them to fight on the open field of battle?! LOL. I love it how you Zionist propaganda constantly reiterates Hamas's supposed doctrinal use of civilian shields and that is the cause of all these civilian deaths. And you people eat it right up. The fact is...there is no separating civilians from a battlefield and mere thought that that is even possible is completely stupefying on so many levels. |
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| Originally posted by Krypton Apparently, they failed to contact the 600 people who've already been killed, nevermind that they hardly have ELECTRICITY or PHONE SERVICE... .. |
CHRles: Chapeau!
Good to see some facts for a change.
definitely
and as for krypton, this is my first time in the political forum, and first time seeing you here too mind you. to be honest, I lost much respect for you. it may fly in the c0r, but over here you seem to spew incoherent blobs of emotionally attached information, everything seeming to come out one-sided. are you a sympathizer of some sort, or are you just simply uninformed?
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| Originally posted by Leon bud I don't want to argue but the 600 people killed did happen to have another label than just 'people'. to be involved in terrorist activities is well worthy enough of a cause to be targeted. not saying all of those numbers are terrorists, i'm damn sure innocents got in the way, but why would the military just go and kill civilians? don't you think that would set them back and get them in deeper shit than what they already are in? |
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| Originally posted by CHRles Most of those dead are militants. Hamas killed hundreds of people in Gaza last year when it was fighting with Fatah. Where were you then? Hezbollah killed hundreds of Arab Sunnis in the past couple of years. Why havent you been more vocal about that? Innocent Arab women all over the Middle East die each year at the hands of religious judges yet I havent heard you mention that at all. |
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| Do you have a problem with what the US did in Afghanistan? Speak up now. America had to retaliate against the Taliban. But dont think for one second there werent thousands (a lot more then those died on 9/11) of so-called innocent bystanders in Afghanistan who got caught in the crossfire and died. That's the reality of war. Do you think American forces werent aggressive in their fight against the Taliban? |
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| Now let's get back to Hamas |
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| *Hamas has been cutting off some of the electricity and phone service in Gaza. *Hamas has been forcing some Gaza residents to remain in their homes rather then let them try to flee to safer havens *Hamas is the one hiding in so-called safe havens, UN-owned buildings, and firing from them *Hamas is the one taking over parts of the hospitals in Gaza, only treating the people it wants to treat *Hamas is the one confiscating the international aid allowed into Gaza that was supposed to be handed out freely Gaza's citizens *Hamas is the one that hasnt allowed some of those injured to cross the border in Egypt *Hamas is the one with a charter that aims to annihilate Israel |
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| There are Palestinians who have been wounded in Gaza that Israel is actually treating back in Israel. Dont believe me? Ask New York's mayor, Michael Bloomberg, who was in Israel this week. He met up both with Israelis wounded and Palestinian ones. There's photos too if you still dont believe it. |
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| Hamas needs to surrender and let other Arab leaders who actually give a shit about Gaza do the talking. |
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| Originally posted by Leon and as for krypton, this is my first time in the political forum, and first time seeing you here too mind you. to be honest, I lost much respect for you. it may fly in the c0r, but over here you seem to spew incoherent blobs of emotionally attached information, everything seeming to come out one-sided. are you a sympathizer of some sort, or are you just simply uninformed? |
First of all there are sources to what I've written about Hamas in this very thread. I know, I know there's already like 20 something pages, but I was mainly recapping what others have already posted.
Second of all, those Arab dictators are a lot less dangerous not only to America and Israel, but to the people of the Middle East as well when compared to Iran.
What support is Iran planning to send? Suicide bombers? More weapons so Hamas can continue firing rockets as it has for the past 8 years?
Saudi Arabia and Egypt are offering real medical support, real food, and other forms of aid.
Iran is all talk about "helping the Palestinian cause" when it's not even their business - Iranians arent even Arabs. Iran needs to let the Arab world try to handle this crisis. But no, Iran is being overly vocal b/c Hamas is a proxy of Iran.
Lastly, what I'd posted with regards to Hamas vs. Fatah, Hezbollah, and America's just war on Afghanistan is all very relevant. You've got to put all the pieces of the puzzle together to get the big picture. You can show sympathy for the Palestinian cause if you want, and I think that's fair, but showing sympathy for Hamas is a whole other matter.
Only time will tell how this will affect Israel.
The UN is one hell of an impotent organization in security council issues. Israel has really shown the weakness of this the UN as a whole overtime.
If you are pro Israel or for the re-occupation of Gaza for its own sake, that's your perrogative. But atleast admit the flaws Israel has, especially how criminal of a state it is regarding international law.
But people start to develop some twisted logic that civilian losses are ok because they are civilians that elected hamas, you know, even if they arent of voting age, or didnt vote for Hamas. Or even the ones that did vote for Hamas out of desperation, in a hope that they somehow could make their shitty life better
(Hamas is fucked and i dont support their ideology)
If Israel knows that Hamas is gonna employ tactics like being amongst civilians, it wont hesitate to fire, knowing the consequences of what will happen, and they can blame Hamas. They have great intelligence, so they can easily predict collateral damage.
From what I have seen, most third party UN officials are usually appalled at this aggresion, and the humanitarian crisis as a result.
But people are so passionate about this issue that they will black/white label politicians entire crudentials based on what he has to think about "Israel's right to defend itself"
This debate soon becomes messy if people confuse and mix severeal seperate issues:
1. Is Israel's military intervention justified? If no, please proceed to provide an alternative solution to the problem of ongoing Hamas rocket launching.
2. Is the WAY the military operation is carried out acceptable? If no, please explain and provide a different approach.
3. How should the military/political/humanitarian status of Gaza-Egypt-Israel look like once this war is ended?
Israel-bashers and so called "critiques" often conclude from an alleged "excessive use of force" (issue 2) that the operation is not just altogether (issue 1). Never do they even think of the day after (issue 3).
I also noticed that many of those who oppose Israel's use of force are lacking a great amount of recent historical knowledge that would allow them to better understand the current operation. It seems as though people are stuck in a loophole around the early 1990s - Israel being the occupier, the Palestinians resisiting with sporadic violent crimes out of despair.
It's time you catch up: The Palestinian people have been governed by Palestinians for close to 15 years. Israel was on the edge of closing a final deal about a sovereign Palestinian state, even including parts of Jerusalem. After realizing that the land-for-peace formula could not work without a reliable partner on the other side (Arafat who jumped on the Intifada bandwagon), Israel changed the strategy and decided to unilaterally change the realities in the region, thereby enhancing Israel's security (the wall, the disengagement). In the course of this process, Gaza was completely cleansed (by force) from all Israeli settlements. In the first few months the borders were open and there were serious attempts to use this opprtunity to create a normal coexistence with an independent Gaza strip. What then happened has been discussed already.
It's fundamental to realize the nature of Islamist terrorism as opposed to secular "resistance movements". Hamas' fight for "Palestine" has got absolutely nothing to do with the early PLO movement. By definition, it does not acknoledge israel as a state nor any non-violent attempts to reach a compromise. Each and every cease fire agreement has been declared temporary and abused in order to regain strength and hit back harder once time ran out. The underlying ideology allows for no concessions. It's an absolute, fascist doctrine that cannot be appeased. Hundreds of dead israeli civilians are testimony to this world view.
Contrary to what is generally propagated, their terrorism is neither an act of despair, nor spontaneous, nor impulsive. The hundreds of smuggling tunnels, arm and rocket factories, huge arsenals of weapons, the equipment and professional organization of Hamas fighters - they all indicate a sopohisticated infrastructure. Terrorists are accordingly recruited, educated, brainwashed, trained, equipped. Video messages are prepared, potential targets are observed, transport is taken care of. TV stations are run, schildren's textbooks are manipulated.
I could list a chonology of events that clearly demonstrate that aggressive use of force DID halt their terrorist acitivites, while every cease fire and every unilateral concession on Israel's behalf was followed by an even increasing violence against its cicitzens. This may seem paradoxical if you think that Hamas is a political resistance movement. It make sense once you've understood their real nature as described above.
To those who would argue that, although logistics and infrastructure can be destroyed, the underlying ideology cannot, and Israeli force will only produce more angry, youn men: Ideology HAS been wiped off thousands of times in history. Latest examples: Fascism (by force) and Comunism (eventually due to implision from within). Admittedly, and unfortunately, this operation has already produced many men and women who are burning for revenge. That's a natural byproduct of every war - be it Georgie, Yugoslavia or Afghanistan. The question is, how these masses of hating young Palestinians are absorbed, and whether they are offered a catalyst in the form of Hamas' terrorism. Frustration, hate, despair, unemployment and bad education on its own never smuggles and shoots rockets.
I believe that Hamas needed to be hit hard this time. I'm extremely upset about dying innocent Palestinians, but I have no doubt whatsoever regarding the blame for their deaths. Nevertheless, Israel cannot and hopefully will not simply hit hard and retreat. This operation will have only made sense if, after destroying the "hardware" of terrorism, the "software" of the humantarian crisis in the Gaza strip is effectively tackled. This means first and foremost: money, money, money. But also, at least this time, an independent regulatory body which strictly controls the streams of these subsidies.
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| Originally posted by Krypton What you left out is the very real grievances with which the Palestinians have. Namely, the blockade. I view, as would most countries, a blockade to be an act of war. So whatever retaliation Gaza's rulers have undertaken is justified. I'm not going to fall for this, "The Palestinians are just blood thirsty killers" argument. |
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| Originally posted by hardcore trancer Stop spamming Israelipropaganda bullshit here. |
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| Originally posted by Krypton "Israel is so scrupulous about civilian life that, risking the element of surprise, it contacts enemy noncombatants in advance to warn them of approaching danger. Hamas, which started this conflict with unrelenting rocket and mortar attacks on unarmed Israelis -- 6,464 launched from Gaza in the last three years -- deliberately places its weapons in and near the homes of its own people." LOLLLLLLLL Apparently, they failed to contact the 600 people who've already been killed, |
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| Originally posted by Krypton nevermind that they hardly have ELECTRICITY or PHONE SERVICE... ... |
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| Originally posted by Krypton Hamas can only fight Israel through assymetrical warfare. You idiots expect them to fight on the open field of battle?! LOL. I love it how you Zionist propaganda constantly reiterates Hamas's supposed doctrinal use of civilian shields and that is the cause of all these civilian deaths. And you people eat it right up. The fact is...there is no separating civilians from a battlefield and mere thought that that is even possible is completely stupefying on so many levels. |
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| Originally posted by Krypton Most of the WOUNDED are civilians. Now you want to bring up the civil war between Hamas and Fatah factions huh? WTF do you want me to say? It's a bloody civil war. Most countries go through them you know, even the United States and now you bring up some other completely irrelevant issue of women's rights in the Middle East. Can we PLEASE stay on topic?... |
This has been posted before; but I just like how all of the "OMG ISRAEL IS SO EVIL" crowd seems not to UNDERSTAND what Hamas is and what Hamas wants:
* Hamas is an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood (Art. 2);
* Hamas' goal is Jihad and the death of Jews (Art. 7);
* Jihad is the path of Hamas, and death for Allah its most sublime belief (Art. 8);
* The land of Palestine is an Islamic inheritance (Art. 11);
* All Muslims are duty-bound to commit Jihad against Israel (Art. 12);
* Peace is not an option (Art. 13);
* Muslims everywhere are duty-bound to liberate Palestine (Art. 14);
* Muslims must study the enemy, looking for weak spots (Art. 16);
* Western culture is a Zionist plot to distance women from Islam (Art. 17)
* Women must train their children to become Jihad fighters (Art. 18);
* Enemies rule the world through intermediaries such as the United Nations (Art. 22);
* The PLO is too secular (Art. 27);
* All Arab states must support Jihad (Art. 28);
* All Muslim leaders must support Jihad (Art. 30);
* Hamas cares about human rights and religious toleration, provided all other religions live in the shadow of Islam (Art. 31);
* Peace accords are treacherous schemes of Zionists (Art. 32);
* Jihad will not end until liberation is complete (Art. 33); and
* Palestine is the navel of the earth and Jihad is our answer to the Christian Crusades (Art. 34).
Also I like Hamas with cheese and beef tips along with a mango salsa
cease fire. yes!
bring in UN peacekeepers and gather up your evidence
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| Originally posted by Q5echo cease fire. yes! bring in UN peacekeepers and gather up your evidence |
and if IDF come across armed Hamas, they will fire, but they are instructed to only open fire if the first bullets come from Hamas
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| Originally posted by hardcore trancer Stop spamming Israelipropaganda bullshit here. |
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| Originally posted by Psy-T the fact those people are dead doesn't show that israel's forces failed to notify the noncombatants amongst them, consider people sticking around to face a natural disaster despite being warned of it and recommended to evacuate. if it is true that israel sent warnings as was stated (with several sources) earlier in the thread, then israel didn't fail in this respect. |
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| they can afford rockets, but they can't afford electricity or phone service... sounds like a country with priorities way out of wack. |
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| let's hypothesize that you were the leader of israel and/or its armed forces, let's further hypothesize that you were in a declared war, in which your aim is to neutralize the hamas as efficiently as you could. what would you do? please keep the hamas charter in mind in your response. |
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