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This thread failed so long ago, I haven't bothered posting any additional replies. I really don't need anybody telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about. Because I know very well that I do, I just don't necessarily want to discuss certain things and I also have no patience to write paragraphs and paragraphs about the subject.

Just like the conflict itself, this thread has become a cycle with no end. No point giving an opinion if the next person will come out and say that his opinion is better.

quote:

Originally posted by Anas Attia

You still haven't given me a straight answer about your position on Hamas.

And no, I'm not going to let go in this thread until you can answer one simple question

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7802295.stm

Was a bit sad reading this blog

edit: another article on Israeli propaganda efforts (it is pro Palestinian-safe!)

[urlhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809371.stm[/url]

Is this article really pro Israeli?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809959.stm

quote:

Excerpt Israeli ground troops have started to enter the Gaza Strip, Israeli military officials have confirmed, a week after the offensive against Hamas began. An Israeli military spokeswoman said the intention was to take control of areas from which Palestinian militants have been firing rockets into Israel. Witnesses say armoured vehicles crossed into northern Gaza at four separate points, supported by helicopters. Earlier, Israel intensified air and artillery attacks on the territory. In one raid, at least 13 people were killed when a missile struck a crowded mosque in Beit Lahiya, Palestinian medics said. Witnesses said more than 200 people had been inside the Ibrahim al-Maqadna mosque for evening prayers when it was struck. Correspondents say Israel has accused Hamas of using mosques to hide weapons and ammunition, but this is the first time a mosque has been hit at prayer time.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan You still haven't given me a straight answer about your position on Hamas. And no, I'm not going to let go in this thread until you can answer one simple question

"My heart cries inside when you say such things. Israel is the anti-christ. Hammas does no wrong. I am not biased. HERE! Watch a conspiracy video! LINK"

All of this is not a surprise. Those on the Gaza strip shooting rockets, akin to a David & Goliath situation, are using that to show that they want Israel gone and aren't happy with the current 'state' of affairs. Israel, obviously not seeing this as acceptable (and rightly so), will eventually retaliate (like now). It's implied/hoped that the greater the severity of the attack on Gaza then the greater the message not to mess with Israel.

I don't have a side to take on this - other than religions give ppl the moral conscience to do things they wouldn't likely do otherwise - but all I will say is that both sides have hatred for the other and somehow think violence will help them in the long run. IMO, this is a situation that can escalate -- Hamas keeps saying fuck you to Israel with rockets, Israel says don't fuck with us x 1000 back at them, the surrounding Arab nations complain about how the UN/USA side with Israel in most things and ignore them, Iran will go "hey we still want a nuclear program for energy but you know we don't like Israel either" - then the USA will step in and go to Iran: "well don't go messing with Israel else you mess with us too and oh oh look here we have intelligence that says Iran is building a nuke to get rid of Israel so we better launch a pre-emptive strike" and so begins a huge Middle East war.

Religious/ideological differences will always be around but sadly even if you wipe out the leaders of one group you can never be certain another won't take their place. You also run the risk of dealing with pissed off children years from now who had their innocent parents (civilians) killed and from that moment on have venom/motivation within them to form a part of some other anti-whatever group. For example, few bother to tackle the topic of how blowback influenced 9/11 and how the de-Baathisation/dismantling of the Iraqi military magnified the insurgency -- sadly it becomes a soundbite in the news of how there are simply "Iraqis/terrorists(aka insurgents) against the US" - nobody cares to ask WHY are they against something? For example, how much is discussed in the media (currently) about *why* there are rockets fired at Israel? What's the use of having a 6 month truce/cease-fire if after those 6 months all the same shit comes back again because the underlying issues are never resolved/agreed upon to where both parties are satisfied. All you're doing is delaying the next inevitable conflict and the same cycle is fired up again.

Israel shouldn't bomb mosques while prayers are going on

That's just not cool, and prayers are always at the same time so it's not like they could say they don't know when they take place.

I just heard some University Professor named Antonus something speak on CTV Newsnet. Very smart what he said, basically that Israel has been tightening its hold on Palestinian territories since things fell through (after the last Palestinian uprising) and that basically all of this will be in vain, because you cannot bomb the fuck out of your neighbors and expect to peacefully co-exist with them.

If people from an Indian reserve throws bombs at my neighborhood, you can bet your ass that I and my neighbors would have no mercy to them.

I don't see whats different between Israel and the Territories.

It's a war, not a walk in the park.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam420 ...you cannot bomb the fuck out of your neighbors and expect to peacefully co-exist with them.

What these super-smart university profs don't understand (or just won't accept) is that they presently can't co-exist peacefully period, for much more fundamentally deeper reasons.

Essentially, there are three psychological "levels" that a conflict can exist at:

1. Rational conflict with the ultimate goal of peace, freedom, or long-term stability. Examples would be various Civil Wars and the Cold War.

2. Rational conflict with the aim of acquiring specific territory or resources or having specific demands met. Obvious examples would be WWI/II and the more recent invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

3. Irrational conflict motivated by strong emotions - hate, honour, religious or spiritual imperatives, vengeance, etc. This tends to describe the much longer and bloodier wars like the Crusades or any of the numerous blood feuds of the 18th and 19th centuries. It was also the clear motivator for the 9/11 attacks, assuming you're not one of the crackheads who believe it was an inside job.

Westerners, especially academics and pacifists, desperately want to impose the first type on every conflict. It all seems so simple when you look at it that way; you just call a cease-fire, write up some treaty and agree to stop fighting from then on. If that doesn't work, if the pieces don't seem to fit together for #1, then they reluctantly fall back on #2 and assume that the dispute can be resolved by making some concessions - and indeed, most disputes can be resolved this way.

But this just isn't the reality in the Middle East. In fact, all of the worst possible #3 elements are in place; religious fervor, political and ideological hate (Israel is a "western" power), AND an ongoing blood feud. To suggest that they can just kiss and make up is simply outrageous. It's beyond the pale.

Unfortunately, Israel itself falls into this trap time and again. When dealing with a rational adversary, responding to hostile acts with overwhelming force will almost always prevent further hostile acts. Not in this case. It may be partly due to Hamas having learned to make themselves very difficult targets, hiding out in bunkers during air strikes and so on, as well as having an almost inexhaustible supply of people willing to die for the cause and the ability to wage war on a shoestring budget, but largely it's due to the fact that they just don't care how many of their own are killed because their singular and unwavering belief in the nobility and holiness of their ultimate goal (whether that's dhimmifying the Jews or simply wiping Israel them off the map - depends on whether you're dealing with Fatah or Hamas).

Sadly, in the past, the solutions to these "problems" have often involved simply letting them play out until enough of one side or the other are dead and their resolve has weakened enough to force them into a more rational state of mind. Sometimes a sustained propaganda war can bring this around quicker, but Israel really sucks at that.

I don't have answers. Nobody does, obviously, or this would have been over years ago. I can accept that. What doesn't sit so well with me is pacifists who can't even begin to grasp the mentality or the physical reality over there assuming that they do have the answers. Sorry folks, but this is one argument that's not going to be solved with a smile and a handshake.

I've been absent from reading this thread for a while but here's an interesting article I came across recently.

quote:

Top 5 Lies About Israel�s Assault on Gaza January 3, 2009 by Jeremy R. Hammond Lie #1) Israel is only targeting legitimate military sites and is seeking to protect innocent lives. Israel never targets civilians. The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated pieces of property in the world. The presence of militants within a civilian population does not, under international law, deprive that population of their protected status, and hence any assault upon that population under the guise of targeting militants is, in fact, a war crime. Moreover, the people Israel claims are legitimate targets are members of Hamas, which Israel says is a terrorist organization. Hamas has been responsible for firing rockets into Israel. These rockets are extremely inaccurate and thus, even if Hamas intended to hit military targets within Israel, are indiscriminate by nature. When rockets from Gaza kill Israeli civilians, it is a war crime. Hamas has a military wing. However, it is not entirely a military organization, but a political one. Members of Hamas are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Dozens of these elected leaders have been kidnapped and held in Israeli prisons without charge. Others have been targeted for assassination, such as Nizar Rayan, a top Hamas official. To kill Rayan, Israel targeted a residential apartment building. The strike not only killed Rayan but two of his wives and four of his children, along with six others. There is no justification for such an attack under international law. This was a war crime. Other of Israel�s bombardment with protected status under international law have included a mosque, a prison, police stations, and a university, in addition to residential buildings. Moreover, Israel has long held Gaza under siege, allowing only the most minimal amounts of humanitarian supplies to enter. Israel is bombing and killing Palestinian civilians. Countless more have been wounded, and cannot receive medical attention. Hospitals running on generators have little or no fuel. Doctors have no proper equipment or medical supplies to treat the injured. These people, too, are the victims of Israeli policies targeted not at Hamas or legitimate military targets, but directly designed to punish the civilian population. Lie #2) Hamas violated the cease-fire. The Israeli bombardment is a response to Palestinian rocket fire and is designed to end such rocket attacks. Israel never observed the cease-fire to begin with. From the beginning, it announced a �special security zone� within the Gaza Strip and announced that Palestinians who enter this zone will be fired upon. In other words, Israel announced its intention that Israeli soldiers would shoot at farmers and other individuals attempting to reach their own land in direct violation of not only the cease-fire but international law. Despite shooting incidents, including ones resulting in Palestinians getting injured, Hamas still held to the cease-fire from the time it went into effect on June 19 until Israel effectively ended the truce on November 4 by launching an airstrike into Gaza that killed five and injured several others. Israel�s violation of the cease-fire predictably resulted in retaliation from militants in Gaza who fired rockets into Israel in response. The increased barrage of rocket fire at the end of December is being used as justification for the continued Israeli bombardment, but is a direct response by militants to the Israeli attacks. Israel's actions, including its violation of the cease-fire, predictably resulted in an escalation of rocket attacks against its own population. Lie #3) Hamas is using human shields, a war crime. There has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields. The fact is, as previously noted, Gaza is a small piece of property that is densely populated. Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare such as the assassination of Nizar Rayan, in which members of his family were also murdered. It is victims like his dead children that Israel defines as �human shields� in its propaganda. There is no legitimacy for this interpretation under international law. In circumstances such as these, Hamas is not using human shields, Israel is committing war crimes in violation of the Geneva Conventions and other applicable international law. Lie #4) Arab nations have not condemned Israel�s actions because they understand Israel�s justification for its assault. The populations of those Arab countries are outraged at Israel�s actions and at their own governments for not condemning Israel�s assault and acting to end the violence. Simply stated, the Arab governments do not represent their respective Arab populations. The populations of the Arab nations have staged mass protests in opposition to not only Israel's actions but also the inaction of their own governments and what they view as either complacency or complicity in Israel's crimes. Moreover, the refusal of Arab nations to take action to come to the aid of the Palestinians is not because they agree with Israel�s actions, but because they are submissive to the will of the US, which fully supports Israel. Egypt, for instance, which refused to open the border to allow Palestinians wounded in the attacks to get medical treatment in Egyptian hospitals, is heavily dependent upon US aid, and is being widely criticized within the population of the Arab countries for what is viewed as an absolute betrayal of the Gaza Palestinians. Even Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has been regarded as a traitor to his own people for blaming Hamas for the suffering of the people of Gaza. Palestinians are also well aware of Abbas' past perceived betrayals in conniving with Israel and the US to sideline the democratically elected Hamas government, culminating in a counter-coup by Hamas in which it expelled Fatah (the military wing of Abbas' Palestine Authority) from the Gaza Strip. While his apparent goal was to weaken Hamas and strengthen his own position, the Palestinians and other Arabs in the Middle East are so outraged at Abbas that it is unlikely he will be able to govern effectively. Lie #5) Israel is not responsible for civilian deaths because it warned the Palestinians of Gaza to flee areas that might be targeted. Israel claims it sent radio and telephone text messages to residents of Gaza warning them to flee from the coming bombardment. But the people of Gaza have nowhere to flee to. They are trapped within the Gaza Strip. It is by Israeli design that they cannot escape across the border. It is by Israeli design that they have no food, water, or fuel by which to survive. It is by Israeli design that hospitals in Gaza have no electricity and few medical supplies with which to treat the injured and save lives. And Israel has bombed vast areas of Gaza, targeting civilian infrastructure and other sites with protected status under international law. No place is safe within the Gaza Strip.

article: http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com...lt-on-gaza.html

I usually stray away from "articles" that are Top 5 or 10's of anything; but it does offer an interesting perspective on the whole issue and the supposed "justified" reasons Israel is fighting back the way they are.

I was the rally today and it was one of the best things I have done in my life..it was inspiring and emotional.....i am so happy to have been there to witness today's events

There were at least 5000 people there and news outlets that are saying that they had expected 5000 and ONLY got 2-3 to me are not reporting accurately..i don't know what the point of making this massive scale rally seem insignificant is?

Anas and InfiniteEclipse..it was amazing meeting the both you..too bad they wouldn't put our tables together! Table for 14 please!

btw, Anas is not in any way a hateful person or someone with evil intentions as some have tried to say..now that i have personally met him..i find the shit that has been said to be totally slanderous and a bunch of bullshit..


The situation is complicated..but what is happening today and now is not..it is so black and white to some of us..there is no justification for these air attacks and now the ground assault..none..and anyone who wants to argue this point is just filled with hatred....

Today helped me realize that there are many, many people out there who do understand the severity and consequences of Israel's actions....

btw..i was very inspired to hear the words of the person from the Jewish Independent Voices..i will definitely be doing reasearch on this group...very impressive..

edit: never mind

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH I've been absent from reading this thread for a while but here's an interesting article I came across recently. quote: The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated pieces of property in the world. The presence of militants within a civilian population does not, under international law, deprive that population of their protected status, and hence any assault upon that population under the guise of targeting militants is, in fact, a war crime. Moreover, the people Israel claims are legitimate targets are members of Hamas, which Israel says is a terrorist organization. Hamas has been responsible for firing rockets into Israel. These rockets are extremely inaccurate and thus, even if Hamas intended to hit military targets within Israel, are indiscriminate by nature. When rockets from Gaza kill Israeli civilians, it is a war crime.

Honestly, is this guy for real? This has got to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever read. Effectively what he's saying is that terrorists who hide amongst civilians should be able to attack with impunity, and that any attempts to stop them are war crimes. And he suggests that the inaccuracy of the rockets at least partially justifies civilian casualties, ignoring the fact that they are being fired nowhere near a single target of military importance.

And most of the world considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization, not just Israel.

Sheesh, I'm not even going to comment on the rest. What an awful piece of drek. "Perspective" my left nut.

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear there is no justification for these air attacks and now the ground assault..none..

"None?" You can argue if you want over whether or not it's the right response, or even the most effective under the circumstances, but you can't expect anybody to take you seriously when you claim that there is "no justification."

only justification is that israel is backed by both usa and un so they can do as they please.

ill bet you anything that cnn will cry murder when any of the arab countries strikes at israel (and its bound to happen)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
only justification is that israel is backed by both usa and un so they can do as they please.

ill bet you anything that cnn will cry murder when any of the arab countries strikes at israel (and its bound to happen) [/QUOTE


someone should stick up for the people of palestine..and i wouldn't blame any of the arab countries for striking israel at this point..but it's a very slippery slope and could have catastrophic consequences...

the concept i don't understand is....how is israel defending itself when they have only 4 casualties..and the other side is being bombed into oblivion? Why are they the defenders and the palestinians the aggressors?

maybe some of the scholars in this thread can explain it to me?

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear the concept i don't understand is....how is israel defending itself when they have only 4 casualties..and the other side is being bombed into oblivion? Why are they the defenders and the palestinians the aggressors? maybe some of the scholars in this thread can explain it to me?

you think whoever suffers the least casualties is the aggressor?

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan you think whoever suffers the least casualties is the aggressor?

yes, i believe the number of casualties indicates who the aggressor in this current situation is....it's a one sided war..if you say that Hamas broke the cease fire therefore becoming the aggressor..maybe you may want to read the following article..i don't believe it to be propaganda and written by a united nations special reporter..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richa...a_b_154777.html

there really are some of us out there that just want the truth....

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear ... the concept i don't understand is....how is israel defending itself when they have only 4 casualties..and the other side is being bombed into oblivion? Why are they the defenders and the palestinians the aggressors? maybe some of the scholars in this thread can explain it to me?

Israel's military response is unjustifiable.

having said that, I'm just as puzzled by the illogical behaviour of Hamas and Palestinian militants.

as you point out, the rocket attacks cause little damage and almost no injury or loss of life...so what's the point?

If Israel uses the attacks as 'justification' for its response and an ignorant public somehow equates the two behaviours by saying "well, if Hamas halts the rockets, Israel will halt its operations"...then isn't in Hamas' best interests to stop the attacks, not because others are demanding it, but because it is the beneficial thing to do for all Palestinians?

or are Hamas and the militants attempting to draw greater global attention to the underlying occupation by baiting Israel into this type of response (yet sacrificing its own people in the process)?

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear yes, i believe the number of casualties indicates who the aggressor in this current situation is....it's a one sided war..

i'm trying to think abstractly here, without putting israel and hamas in it

i'm thinking, should it not be about who started this round of war in the first place? now both sides can use whatever justification to claim self defence, but if i feel that i'm being wronged and attacked, i really wouldnt care what the casualties numbers are (strictly speaking philosophically from self defence point of view, not how the war is being conducted)

quote:

there really are some of us out there that just want the truth....

please stop using cliche terms like this. it really makes pro palestinian (or for anyone for that matter using such cliches) like righteous bumpkins

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT Israel's military response is unjustifiable. having said that, I'm just as puzzled by the illogical behaviour of Hamas and Palestinian militants. as you point out, the rocket attacks cause little damage and almost no injury or loss of life...so what's the point? If Israel uses the attacks as 'justification' for its response and an ignorant public somehow equates the two behaviours by saying "well, if Hamas halts the rockets, Israel will halt its operations"...then isn't in Hamas' best interests to stop the attacks, not because others are demanding it, but because it is the beneficial thing to do for all Palestinians? or are Hamas and the militants attempting to draw greater global attention to the underlying occupation by baiting Israel into this type of response (yet sacrificing its own people in the process)?

hamas needs israeli attacks on palestinians civvies for support. more israelis kill palestinians, more anger towards israel = support and money for hamas cause

remember. one of hamas's goal is destruction of israel. it needs hatred from palestinians against israel in order to achieve that goal (and stupid of israel for keep playing into hamas hands)

i wasn't trying to use it as a cliche....

what i was getting at is...there are people who base their opinions according to what they see as the truth..and not some type of emotional attachment to one side or the other...

i provided a link to an article and wanted to let people know that i felt it was an article that rang true and not something people may consider propaganda...maybe if others in this thread weren't accused of doing such things, i wouldn't have felt the need to be defensive and point out that i was a seeker of facts..

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan hamas needs israeli attacks on palestinians civvies for support. more israelis kill palestinians, more anger towards israel = support and money for hamas cause remember. one of hamas's goal is destruction of israel. it needs hatred from palestinians against israel in order to achieve that goal (and stupid of israel for keep playing into hamas hands)

did u even read the article i provided a link to..? is what you just said fact or how you feel?

quote:

Originally posted by gummybear did u even read the article i provided a link to..?

actually i did, as much as i find poor paragraphing hard to read.

quote:

is what you just said fact or how you feel?

based upon one fact, hamas is working towards destruction of israel. it says so on its charter
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

the rest makes logical sense to me, and consistent with other terrorist movements requiring popular, grassroots support in order to succeed (IRA, Taliban, etc) same with resistance movements against Germans in WW2

It is really laughable when I hear stuff like: "why does everyone hate Isreal?" are you fuckin kidding me? they have no respect for humanity and dont care about the loss of innocent human lives.
We re talking about a country which has managed to isolate itself from the world because of its crimes and unjustified actions against the Palestinian people.

Isreal will always be hated and terrorism against them will never stop,untill they start doing things differntly and stop using illegal millitary force to achieve their goals.

This time I rally think shit is gonna hit the fan for them.

i guess we can agree to disagree...

like i said many times before..we all have our own truths....you're entitled to your opinion...but no matter what side we are all on here at TOTA..i would hope that this community as a whole, is progressive enough to agree that human rights violations against any group of people around this world is unacceptable..

maybe that's wishful thinking..

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer It is really laughable when I hear stuff like: "why does everyone hate Isreal?" are you fuckin kidding me? they have no respect for humanity and dont care about the loss of innocent human lives. We re talking about a country which has managed to isolate itself from the world because of its crimes and unjustified actions against the Palestinian people.

Are you sure it's not because for some reason, a lot of Muslims think a Jewish state in middle of Dar-as-Islam (sp?) is repugnant?
it's one thing to have Jews living in Muslim lands where Muslims are the overlords, but co-existing? Or even, Muslims under Jewish overlordship?

Because I hardly doubt that 1967 and 1973 happened because Arab nations were pissed off at Israeli treatment of Palestinians

If you ask all the anti-Jewish Muslims, I'd be genuinely curious to know how many people would say they hate Israel because of how Palestinians get treated

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