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Originally posted by Enigmatik You can eat as carefully as you like, you're still increasing your chances of appendicitis by increasing the amount of plant matter going in you. In addition. Vegetarianism is a conscious attempt to evolve through regressing to a lower life form.

I bet people that have heart disease , gastritis , ulcers , etc are told to increase their meat intake by 200% right ???

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Originally posted by Enigmatik Gay bro. Why would you be discussing Bas' wiener?

because its meatless meat

My opinion:

I'm vegan because I'm in a position where I get to choose my diet and it seems logical to me to not consume animal products. Eating animal products is not necessary to my survival, so I'd rather try my best to avoid something that actively involves harming another living thing.

I realize that I'm not perfect in this regard. I take medications that were probably tested on animals and possibly contain animal products in order to function. As others have mentioned, there are plenty of things that are most likely harmed no matter what my diet is but I don't think that is a decent enough reason to stop. I'd rather do what I can.

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Originally posted by Enigmatik But then again, how healthy one is depends on that person more than their diet in almost every circumstance.

Diet still plays a huge role in determining health.

I don't think we're NOT supposed to eat meat, but I definitely think we're not supposed to eat as much as we do. Canada's Food Guide recommends 1-2 servings of red meat/week. Same with dairy. North Americans generally consume far too much of it.

And yes, if you have health problems, you will be told to eat more complex carbs (green leafy veg, whole grains, fruit) and to limit red meat (if your diet includes a lot of it). There's enough research to show that a diet high in red meat contributes to hyperlipidemia, atherosclerosis, etc.

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Originally posted by djhaziel you don't chew meat ??? so what do you do when you are having filet Mignon , you just rip and swallow ?? okay

meat is not to be chewed. Look at the muscle structure of any carnivore and you will see that they only have a vertical plane in movement (chewing requires horizontal plane movement as well for grinding motion). The serated teeth on a T-Rex for example, allowed for rip and tear and swallow. Have you ever seen a lion chew the meat it tears off a zebra?

Please read a intro to biology book.

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Basically humans get their calories from carbohydates(sugars) which are found in fruits and plants as an inmediate source of energy which are processed through the krebs cycle and the electron transport chain. Reason why it makes us Veggies more energetic.

wrong, humans get their calories from fats and proteins as well. ALL of which are contained in meat in one lump sum package. Inuits can survive off meat alone (as there is barely any plant life where they live)

My point is that meat gives you everything you need and its nutrient dense, meaning you can consume a fraction of the mass of meat as you would from vegetables/plants to gain the same nutritional value.

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Before an evolution there is always an involution

what ? this is just a pure bullshit statement right here. Form "meats" function in evolution. a smaller jaw allows for less muscle attachment, less chewing (as meat doesnt need to be chewed) and more energy can be used for developing other parts of the body, hence why we may have developed a larger cranial capacity, instead of a large jaw

(see gorilla jaw compared to homo sapien jaw and compare cranial capacities as well).

Again ill repeat, history speaks for itself. Lets hammer it into your head this time.

Here are the evolutionary groups for primates from about 8 million years ago

Hominae
- Pan (use meat as a social tool)
- Gorilli (plant eating)
- Homo (discussed below)


following the most plausable evolutionary path:



Starting from >2 million years ago:

Homo habilis ate meat
homo ergaster ate meat
Homo antecessor ate meat
Homo rhodesiensis ate meat
Homo sapiens ate meat
Homo sapiens sapiens eat meat

So with meat being a large defining characteristic in diet from the 3 groups, it is almost impossible to say that this characteristic did not help in the evolution from ape to man. In fact if the process were to repeat itself without the aid of meat in diet, its almost certain that we would simply be another outgroup such as pan or gorilli. You are simply going to take out 2 million or more years of integral evolution involving a specific diet of meat to tell me that we are suppose to be vegetarians?

FINAL satement:

We evolved eating meat, thus, we evolved to eat meat. Whatever we decide to do now will shape our future evolution. If we all refrained from eating meat, we could definatley sustain ourselves no question, im simply speaking here with regards to our biological history.

quote:

u done goof ?

yes

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit We evolved eating meat, thus, we evolved to eat meat. Whatever we decide to do now will shape our future evolution. If we all refrained from eating meat, we could definatley sustain ourselves no question, im simply speaking here with regards to our biological history.

Meat certainly is essential to humans, especially her

Oh come on. That fat fucktard's problem isn't meat, it's moderation/self-control. Bad example. I bet that cow eats cake for breakfast.

quote:

Originally posted by djhaziel I bet people that have heart disease , gastritis , ulcers , etc are told to increase their meat intake by 200% right ???

I believe I have already covered that part in my first post, so did Jenny in her post above.
Moderation and self-control are key.

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Originally posted by fughawzi so I'd rather try my best to avoid something that actively involves harming another living thing.

I really don't get that.
Prove that an animal has a wide range of possible emotions, prove that they have a desire to live outside of instinct, prove that they have non-instinctual decision-making capabilities, etc.

It's simple.

If you had to choose one to be shot in the face, a healthy human baby or a healthy calf, which would you pick?

End of story, really.

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Originally posted by jennypie Oh come on. That fat fucktard's problem isn't meat, it's moderation/self-control. Bad example. I bet that cow eats cake for breakfast.

Yes, but she would have a much easier time controlling herself if she wasn't completely surrounded by fast food joints that provide ample amounts of deliciously salty and cheesy meat for her fat ass to devour. I'm just saying that meat has consumed our population to where people feel like they can't eat anything unless it has meat or cheese on it. Something has to click with these people, where they suddenly realize that they're throwing their health down the toilet by eating all this garbage every day. I don't know what it's going to take for people to understand that they should eat meat with moderation instead of eating it as a requirement.

quote:

Originally posted by Enigmatik If you had to choose one to be shot in the face, a healthy human baby or a healthy calf, which would you pick?

That implies that one has to be killed, where vegetarians argue that neither does. I don't see how it contributes to the question at hand. I do eat meat, but I do think animals have emotions, some more than others of course. I have no doubt of it really. As to whether they act out of the limitations of instinct, now starts to become a question of what do you see as being a viable set of traits worth allowing to live, which is more grey that the weather in England.

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Originally posted by Lews I really hope you weren't being serious here.

Deadly serious. You're a terrible person for not doing your part (a conscious choice no less!) to save the planet from global warming by eating the terrible scourge otherwise know as cows.

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Originally posted by ziptnf Yes, but she would have a much easier time controlling herself if she wasn't completely surrounded by fast food joints that provide ample amounts of deliciously salty and cheesy meat for her fat ass to devour.

Dude, seriously? I was eating mcdonalds twice a day for a year in uni and havent gained a kilo. Sure i want feeling all that great but i havent gained weight at all. Keeping up with your daily exercises and saying no to the n-th supersized meal goes a long way. Look at that fat fuck in the pic, half of that hot dog shes holding would fill me up and i am not a small guy, but she has another one waiting for her. Overating like that, she would have gained weight eating salad.




Vegetables are not food, vegetables are what Food Eats!

Guys calm down. She has a thyroid disorder.

Just want to note that Arby's roast beef is gross.










and yet so delicious.

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Originally posted by Moongoose Dude, seriously? I was eating mcdonalds twice a day for a year in uni and havent gained a kilo. Sure i want feeling all that great but i havent gained weight at all. Keeping up with your daily exercises and saying no to the n-th supersized meal goes a long way. Look at that fat fuck in the pic, half of that hot dog shes holding would fill me up and i am not a small guy, but she has another one waiting for her. Overating like that, she would have gained weight eating salad.

You have a higher metabolism, and probably were able to burn off all the calories relatively easily. I was just like you, and my cholesterol was through the roof after eating fast food for lunch 3-4 times a week. You're naive if you think that meat and cheese isn't the sole reason why people's cholesterol is high, and why most of them are pretty fat.

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Vegetables are not food, vegetables are what Food Eats!

Your point was just rendered completely invalid.

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Originally posted by Enigmatik I really don't get that. Prove that an animal has a wide range of possible emotions, prove that they have a desire to live outside of instinct, prove that they have non-instinctual decision-making capabilities, etc. It's simple. If you had to choose one to be shot in the face, a healthy human baby or a healthy calf, which would you pick? End of story, really.

Really? It doesn't matter if they have a wide range of possible emotions in this instance, I was talking about actively harming another living thing. Killing is harmful as the previously living thing is kind of suddenly dead. Honestly, I don't understand your point in the slightest. I want to limit my participation as much as possible, so it really won't change my mind if it turns out animals can't do all that you mentioned. It's still killing something.

There is not going to be a situation where I have to make that decision so, no, not end of story. That is a completely ridiculous thing to say and adds nothing to the conversation.

Speaking of which, something that frustrates me is that people seem to assume an interest in animal rights cancels out an interest in human rights. It's utter bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by Enigmatik If you had to choose one to be shot in the face, a healthy human baby or a healthy calf, which would you pick?

The baby. I would find it exceedingly humourous, therefore pleasurable. I experience amusement as both a hereditary and a social transmission, therefore it is the result of evolution. I cannot help that I was designed to be this way; I simply lack a desire to live outside of instinct and do not possess non-instinctual decision-making capabilities, etc.

mmmmmmmmmmmm

filet mignon, peppercorn steak, any kind of liver









come to mama

*drools*
I love red meat.
I think I may be a bit of a vampire

It was just an abstract hypothetical to help me understand your cases a lot more.

(I'm not directing my comment to you alone, fughawzi)

I just think your stance is hypocritical.

Grow your own crops and stop relying on mass production arable farming which kills thousands of animals in harvesters each year.
It's not me who's complaining about the morality of the system.. you claim to want to limit animal death and suffering so do all you can and start growing your own food, until then you're a hypocrite with a value system you don't adhere to.

Bottom line is, if you decide to eschew meat, cool. But don't paint me as a villain because I include it in my diet, and using shaky arguements to convince me your stance makes more sense than mine.

I think the bigger health difficulty is probably people's consumption of chips, fries, cookies, and soft drinks, because those things are all much less filling than meat, and therefore easier to overconsume.

I suspect that a lot of people, if limited to a diet of steak, chicken, fruit, and vegetables (i.e. no flour and no sugary drinks), would lose weight. It's harder for most people to pig out on those every day than to sit down and eat a bunch of flour-made or potato-made snacks, or drink a few cans of soda.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I think the bigger health difficulty is probably people's consumption of chips, fries, cookies, and soft drinks, because those things are all much less filling than meat, and therefore easier to overconsume. I suspect that a lot of people, if limited to a diet of steak, chicken, fruit, and vegetables (i.e. no flour and no sugary drinks), would lose weight. It's harder for most people to pig out on those every day than to sit down and eat a bunch of flour-made or potato-made snacks, or drink a few cans of soda.

Agreed. I don't eat/drink any of that junk. It helps that I genuinely dislike the taste of it. Except for cookies. Chocolate chip + macadamia nuts cookies. Yum.

quote:

Originally posted by Enigmatik I really don't get that.

I don't get it either, and I'm a vegetarian myself.

Vegetables are living beings too, but I gleefully eat them every single day. What makes a chicken more special than a broccoli? Aren't both living beings in a sense? Just because chicken are closer to us anatomically (they have a heart, a nervous system, and so on) than carrots, it doesn't excuse us from the fact that we're eating living beings all the same.

If anything, the argument should be for moderation - not for vegetarianism - because do you really think you're so special that you can consume everyday a whole Mongolian town simply because bury your pitiful life under tons of food that could feed a whole family for a decade?

Edit: This being said, I can do everything for a healthy life, except cut soft drinks. I can live without alcohol, but I just have my weekly dose of Coca-cola

quote:

Originally posted by Enigmatik It was just an abstract hypothetical to help me understand your cases a lot more. (I'm not directing my comment to you alone, fughawzi) I just think your stance is hypocritical. Grow your own crops and stop relying on mass production arable farming which kills thousands of animals in harvesters each year. It's not me who's complaining about the morality of the system.. you claim to want to limit animal death and suffering so do all you can and start growing your own food, until then you're a hypocrite with a value system you don't adhere to. Bottom line is, if you decide to eschew meat, cool. But don't paint me as a villain because I include it in my diet, and using shaky arguements to convince me your stance makes more sense than mine.

I don't care about convincing you of anything. That might not have been solely directed at me, but I started off by saying I was just stating my opinion. People are going to eat meat. I have no interest in any animal products, they are repulsive to me. That's all.

I am not in a position where I could grow my own food, but I get all of my produce from small local farms because I live in Southern California. I can't really consume all those lovely mass production crops. I don't really see how any of this makes me a hypocrite. My "value system" is trying to limit my involvement in the harming of others as much as I reasonably can. I adhere to that and I do not expect perfection. I know I still participate, but the goal is to limit.

Not doing something perfectly does not equal doing nothing at all.

I can accept veganism as a pusillanimous attempt at boycotting factory farming (if chosen for ethical reasons).

(PETA's in my backyard)

quote:

Originally posted by Lira I don't get it either, and I'm a vegetarian myself. Vegetables are living beings too, but I gleefully eat them every single day. What makes a chicken more special than a broccoli? Aren't both living beings in a sense? Just because chicken are closer to us anatomically (they have a heart, a nervous system, and so on) than carrots, it doesn't excuse us from the fact that we're eating living beings all the same.

Damn, I knew I was doing the least amount of harm with the anorexia. You just can't win.

Edit: Oh god, but then I'm attacking my own body. That's a living thing! WHERE DOES THE INSANITY STOP?

quote:

Originally posted by fughawzi Damn, I knew I was doing the least amount of harm with the anorexia. You just can't win.

Or else, you can just come to grips with the fact that, in order to live, we have to unfortunately kill other beings so we can survive. Chickens, carrots, and so on.

It's not really romantic, but such is life. Oh, you can also try to do like those New Age Hindu guys that claim to live off sunlight! They all have nice tans

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