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-- Keyed tunes for Harmonic mixers
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kev boy--thanks for the feedback! i bet those users are just autodetecting keys and not verifying their accuracy... or maybe they just have bad ears lol ;-) personally, i autodetect keys until i have the time to listen individually by ear, and i know i have a lot left to verify--the work never ends!

if you wish to help correct this information, right now the only way is to actually download and run RE2, then add those songs in question to your own database and correct the key... this will then tell the server and everything should correct itself!

speaking of which, i improved the formatting for the online database search on mixshare.com, it's now much easier to read...

cheers!

can anyone help me key these tunes:

whiteroom - someday ( vocal mix )
salt - lake - rendezvous (original mix)
mind makers - static, and alive again
ALT+F4- Alt+F4 (original mix and matthew adams mix)

qualia - are you the creator of the RE2 program?

When i search for a song in the online DB i get the results, choose on, click on it and then all the info is dipslayed - but at the bottom it also shows the user's email address - some people may not bother about this - but i do. Some people may not want others to view their email address like this - most web pages have an option whether other can see it or not - so maybe you can remove it or update it?

Re: dallas

quote:

Originally posted by Kev Boy Hey dallas, looked at your list, a lot of mistakes mate. Tiesto - Love Comes again is Cm not Am Armin - Communication likewise to above Steve Birch - Spaced out is Gm Peter martin - Perfect Wave is F#m Sarah Mclachlan - Fallen is Dm Whiteroom is Cm World doesn't Know is Gm Got fed up doing this after 10 minutes, TOO many mistakes mate!! No point in posting this stuff if it is so wrong! Sorry! I think if people post wrong keys it is even worse than not posting them at all. Creates too much confusion especially when starting out.

well the experts are meant to help us newbie's out!!! Its like learning to drive!!!

Hey Dallas,

I have checked through your list and as Kev Boy stated there are quite a few errors.
Worth checking again but do it with an instrument if you are using detection software.

The one track that stands out for me is Dogzilla's remix of So Damn beautiful.
You have detected this right but not 100%.

It's one of those tricky ones because it changes key after the intro from Bm to F# minor and again the outro changes too so heads up when mixing this one.

On the whole your list has a lot of good entries but have a look through it again and see if you can learn from it.

Marco V - Solarize goes in 4a (Fm)

Cheers
Nem

Hey just thought I should add, the database at mixshare.com is really great, and I found that most of the key tunes there are accurate. Should I still go through the earlier site to submit tunes (harmonics.defined.org was it??) or can i submit em directly to the new database.

reason being.. it takes time for the owner to verify the tunes i submit to the earlier database whereas in the new one it sorta instantly lists all submissions of users which haven't unfiltered/not verified.


cheeRsss

to Nem

this thread is incredible! endless props to you for sharing your knowledge of harmonics to the community, the concept has really opened doors for myself and many others im sure...

id been glancing at this thread on and off for a while but i hadnt tried to apply any of it to my mixes untill recently and the results had me hungry for more, this is like the holy grail of TA.com

after listening to a tape id made recently of random tracks thrown together and then listening to a mix made with harmonics in mind i was astounded at how much better the mixes sounded, even the bass kicks seemed to mix better

im sorry but i have a ?, i know its probably been asked, and id do a search, only im on a dialup connection at the moment and id be waiting a good 5min to get through each page

how do you find the key of a track? do you listen for the very first note to be heard or do you go from the first note of the melody?... ive got a keyboard that i was planning on using to key my tracks, have a few that arent in any database as of yet and i feel crippled trying to mix keys and not know like half of my bag

thx in advance, got tons to research about harmonics and all but i gotta cut this short for now

Ex

well dude, you kind of try to play the melody of the song on your keyboard. Once u've got it (meaning.. playing the melody on the keyboard sounds exactly as the tune being played), then you try to form a chord out of those notes that make up the melody..

experiment with different chords and try to play it continuously while listening to the track again.

often, a single chord will sound good in most parts of the song. sometimes you get two chords that sound good in diff parts of the song.

this is something that needs practice, and once you have enough, your ears will naturally pick up the differences and it'll be easier to pinpoint a particular chord.

that 'chosen chord' is the key of your track.

Hope I didn't confuse you!

cheeRsss

Theres an existing one at [[ LINK REMOVED ]]


could do with some improvements tho..


what I would really be interested in knowing.. is those combinations of camelot numbers/keys which really drive ppl nuts..

examples mentioned previously were 6a-->3a or vice versa, and a four step leap from 4a-->8a

can we also do 6 steps?
does 2a-->2b and 2b-->2a and 3a-->3b and 3b-->3a and 4a-->4b and 4b-->4a sound great?

post it here!!

cheeRsssS

Please can somebody help me?
I am total nOOb in terms of this "harmonic mixing". Can somebody post a tutorial or something for beginners? Or link to a post or something.
Thanx

ok so i printed off a copy of this chart http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/charts/keychart.mv which has really helped only i find myself stuck on one thing....

it has no reference to sharps, everything is in flat minor/major

does say at the bottom that its obsolete.......

i havent learned that much about music theroy yet(plan to) so im somewhat lost here - are there keys that are the same only have a diff name as you go higher up the scale?

johnny2003--somebody brought that point up to me before. basically, it pulls the email address from a field in the RE2 program. if you don't want your email address to be displayed on the website, simply clear out your email in RE2 and the website will update (eventually)...

rafale--i haven't added the ability to add/update songs over the web. right now i'm expecting people to download RE2 and do all their song adding/editing in it (which automatically communicates with the server and website). is this something that's important to you? i have been thinking about redesigning the website anyway, and when i do so i can make a user logon screen and the ability to edit songs directly over the web, because it sounds like more than just yourself would be interested ;-)

nou--if you want to help me redesign the [[ LINK REMOVED ]]
website i could use some help, as i've been busy working on the actual program...

Please somebody answer my questions:

1)Can I apply harmonic mixing techniques, when I spin progressive trance? Songs like
Sultan & The Greek - Wadi
Portishead - Roads (Sultan & Tone Depth Remix)
Barakka - Song To The Sirren (Max Graham Club Mix)
Can somebody key these tunes?

2)Which steps can I make, according to Camelot Sound System?
For example, when I have 6A tune, I can mix it with 5a/6a/7a?
Any other steps?

hey hailstone,

1) yes you can definitely apply harmonic mixing techniques to progressive trance, unless your songs are just totally atonal (highly unlikely)

2) if you have a 6A tune, it's compatible with 5A, 6A, 7A and 6B. furthermore, it wouldn't sound all that bad with 5B or 7B (so essentially plus or minus 1 number). some other people in this forum mentioned jumps (such as 6a<->3a and 4a<->8a) but it doesn't really work like that, and they would be slightly out of key (although maybe less than other combinations)... keep in mind, if you play a song at +/- 6% you're shifting it up/down one number too (unless you have key lock on)

Thank you qualia

My another question:
What is the best source for keying my tracks? I cant do it myself
I used [[ LINK REMOVED ]]
, but a lot of ppl here are talking about the errors in d-base.

thx Nou - i had printed off a copy of that chart but i was in too much of a hurry to actually read about how to use it hehe

also, ive found the database at mixshare to be pretty helpfull as far as reducing the number of unknown keys in my bag however ive also come a cross a few that ive seen as listed otherwise

like Tiesto - Adagio - i read it a couple times listed here on this thread as A#m but then i noticed it somewhere else as Fm


sucks not knowing which is right

must keep practicing!

hailstone, if you're looking for a free resource of key information, mixshare.com is the largest at the moment. there are a few other sites too (such as djprince and harmonizer), however, i made sure to assimilate all information from those sites into the mixshare server... you can also pay $$$ to get professionally keyed tunes from camelot, but mixshare.com is free ;-) not to mention, it is constantly growing as it's based on user submissions... i think it has more keyed tunes than camelot offers as well

i think all free key information will be slightly inaccurate since it's based on what people submit. you can always shell out cash for keyed tunes, but then you don't learn how to do it yourself, and in the end that's very important... such is the beauty of a free collaborative solution like mixshare ;-)

Here are a few breaks tracks I keyed. I used a guitar and I never bothered to memorize the notes on the neck so I may have mislabeled some. Let me know if you have any corrections.

Hybrid - Blackout (Hybrid Y4K Edit) 128 BPM A Flat minor 1A
Hybrid - I'm Still Awake part 2 (Christian J remix) 130BPM A Flat minor 1A
Meat Katie & Elite Force - Fabulous Mint 400 130 BPM A Flat minor 1A
Soul of Man - Shake em Down (Dylan Rhymes remix) 132 BPM A Flat Minor 1A
Dylan Rhymes - The Way (Evil 9 Remix) 132 BPM E flat minor 2A
Uberzone & Simply Jeff - Science (Mission to Mars mix) 132 BPM E minor 9A
DJ Icey - Bass Response 134 BPM B Flat Minor 3A
Fine Cut Bodies - Trekk Far (Elite Force Mix) 134 BPM D Minor 7A
Uberzone & Rennie Pilgrem - Fuego 134 BPM A Minor 8A
F Massif - Bitstreak 134 BPM B Minor 10A
Uberzone & Simply Jeff - Science (Prototype mix) 136 BPM E Minor 9A

quote:

does say at the bottom that its obsolete....... i havent learned that much about music theroy yet(plan to) so im somewhat lost here - are there keys that are the same only have a diff name as you go higher up the scale?

I'm in the same boat as this guy, and it says harmonic mixing is obselete now? --Ummm, is that true or did I misread it (or did I read it right? --in which case this entire thread is pointless?? I'll assume I misread it.)

quote:

Originally posted by trance85 I'm in the same boat as this guy, and it says harmonic mixing is obselete now? --Ummm, is that true or did I misread it (or did I read it right? --in which case this entire thread is pointless?? I'll assume I misread it.)

think it meant the chart was obsolete... still find it pretty usefull tho

quote:

Originally posted by qualia 2) if you have a 6A tune, it's compatible with 5A, 6A, 7A and 6B. furthermore, it wouldn't sound all that bad with 5B or 7B (so essentially plus or minus 1 number). some other people in this forum mentioned jumps (such as 6a<->3a and 4a<->8a) but it doesn't really work like that, and they would be slightly out of key (although maybe less than other combinations)... keep in mind, if you play a song at +/- 6% you're shifting it up/down one number too (unless you have key lock on)

I'm afraid I will have to correct you on that as it does work.

The reason is that let's take 6a (Gm) works with a 3a (A#m) is because those notes are actually found in the chord of Gm. What you in effect are actually doing is creating a chord from the two tracks.
If you do the 6a to 10a type mix you are creating a 'harmony' with Gm and Bm.
These methods do work and are used regularly by the likes of Tiesto and Armin to give their sets extra energy.
You will from time to time get tracks that don't work together in any of the harmonic mixing principals but that may be because they use incompatible scales rather than anything else.


Your words on pitch are however wise as when you change the pitch control you do change the key of a track.
To change a track by one whole semitone you have to change the speed by 4.5%

It has been stated in other threads that knowledge of scales is important but I actually beleive that knowledge of how chords work is actually more useful.

Cheers
Nem

hey Nem, thanks for explaining that! i may have learned something new here, and if so, will be incorporating this logic into rapid evolution...

so i'd like to clarify my understanding--are you saying a song in 6a and 3a are just as likely to sound in key as 6a and say, 5a? i assume this 3 step interval works across the board, i.e. 4a is compatible with 7a?

can you elaborate on "thsoe notes are actually found in the chord of Gm"? perhaps my chord knowledge is lacking, but in terms of key scales, the notes of 6a (Gm) and 3a (A#m) are:

Gm - G A A# C D D# F
A#m - A# C C# D# F F# G#

now, i can see that perhaps certain chords in these two keys might combine to make other interesting, harmonic chords, but in general i think there are a lot of notes in the keys that differ... it would seem to me 2 melodies in these different keys would not go over each other well (however a more harmonic, chord based song might work?)...

am i not undestanding?

thanks for enlightening me... ;-)

I hear what you are saying and yes... let's be clear about this. If you let the songs drift to far into each other you will get a less than enjoyable result but as far as basslines are concerned etc you can combine tracks in these keys successfully and maybe even more dramatically than the regular methods.

Let's think guitar for a minute.
If you play a chord in a G (not barre), natrually your first finger will be on the G. But then if you think what the next note in that progression is it's a B.
You can take it quite far and look into so many different chords.

Part of this does come down to knowing your records very well but you will find some truly awesome uplifting ways to mix by taking it further than just the regular way. Sometimes it can be trial and error but generally I find it works and does work on the dancefloor quite nicely.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Part of this does come down to knowing your records very well

Yup, knowing songs well enough that you can pinpoint when to start the next record is something that can make your mixes even more seamless. For example, occasionally I'll be in the middle of a mix between two songs, and the bassline on the outgoing one cuts out as it winds down, but the bassline on the incoming track hasn't begun yet. If you're trying to raise the energy level, this sort of thing can counteract your efforts, depending on what exactly you're going for. So as Nem said, just know the records well. Having not known some of my records has gotten me into a bit of trouble more times than I care to mention...

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Sometimes it can be trial and error but generally I find it works and does work on the dancefloor quite nicely.

Indeed - some of the coolest mixes and transition points between tracks that I've discovered have been purely trial and error. It's difficult to find things like that, and to progress as a DJ, if you aren't willing to risk trying something different every now and then.

I have no idea if these points relate much to what you guys were discussing, as I didnt read this entire page of new posts, but hey, some general advice never hurts

If I may add,.. sometimes techy sounding tunes which focus more on beats than melodies such as tech trance can be thrown in regardless of the pervious tunes' keys.. reason being these tunes are not 'melody-intensive' (as I call it) and therefore won't really sound terrible if not in 'harmony' with the rest.

Of course, knowing your tunes is essential beforehand.
Not the best of advice but just thought I'd share it... for those who are still clueless about harmonics and their 'rules'.

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