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quote:

Originally posted by Heinz I want all of you to think long and hard about this passage. long AND hard.

OKAY! I'll try AND do it:

quote:

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Keep reading:

Romans 2:6
"Who will render to every man according to his deeds."

Somewhat contradicts your previous statement:

John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

But it falls in line with:

Matthew 12:37:
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Luke 10:26-28:
"He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

John.5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

So which is it? Deeds or belief? Can't have both, but think about this long AND hard:

Why did Jesus and the Bible say both?

quote:

one day, if still you have not accepted the reality of god, one day u will. he will be revealed to you, right in front of you. as u wanted. u will SEE him, TALK to him, FEEL him, HEAR him. that will be your proof. u want science, u want evidence, u want this and that. YOU WILL GET SOMETHING EVEN BETTER THAN THAT!! u will see him right there in front of you, in your face, asking u what. what to what? u will find out.

I sure hope so. I'd like to ask him why the hell man wrote down so many inconsistencies and contradictions about Him, and that I hope he'll forgive mankind and Christianity for their idiocy in their belief in the illogical.

I think God will understand. He's a pretty righteous Being, ya know.

quote:

i give u evidence. from the bible. and thats the only evidence i need. ask me any question and i bet u, i will have a response directly from the bible. so dont get mad, because i have ONE SOURCE thats the most crediable source living man has in its precious possession.

----------------------

We've been over this Heinz, and unless you've either been blatantly ignoring previous posts or have been asleep at the wheel, it's not difficult to conclude that the Bible is the least credible historical reference there is. If there is madness on our part, it's due to your continual ignorance on the matter, and your continual usage of a book that utilizes circular reasoning (and is thus illogical).

quote:

My challenge for you is to ask me any logical, intelligent question, anything pertaining to the subject. and i will answer you from the bible. not from myself, or from any human being. and i want you to know.

So we ask you a logical question, and you'll give us an answer that utilizes circular reasoning, and is therefore illogical? I guess most would consider this a waste of time in a logical debate, as would I.

quote:

the bible isnt a "book" it is the Word of God. when i quote the bible, that is the literal speaking of god. the bible is god "speaking to you" believe it or not.

So God wrote it? I keep turning over and flipping through my KJ and Revised Standard Versions of my Bibles, and I have yet to see a tag that says, "Made From God". What I have seen are stories, some quite contradictory to historical record and logic, written by men. If you have a Bible that has the "Made From God" tag on it, could you send us a .pdf or .jpg of it?

I really wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, Heinz, and really wanted you to continue to post in hopes that you may have more logical statements. It's disappointing that you continue to resort back to the Bible and it's circular reasoning to support your opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 No,that's not what it means. 10 commandments, and it's not just those that set down rules/laws. God doesn't want you doing those things. Once you make it right with God, you don't do those things. You have no desire to. God will forgive you of your sins, but He also doesn't want you committing them. Further more, God knows your heart.

This does not negate the possibility of creating sins regardless, so long as God forgives me in the end?

Besides, there are plenty of addicts out there that simply can't control their sinful nature very well. True, God knows their hearts, but they continually commit sins relentlessly. So a rapist and serial killer (with addictive behaviors) will be saved so long as they believe in Jesus, versus a Buddhist monk who works for the PeaceCorps and does nothing but devotes his life to helping the needy.

Got it. Thanks.

Oh yeah, by your reasoning, shouldn't there be nothing but non-Christians and atheists sitting in jail?

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 To add, if you think you have to DO something to get to heaven,that's like slapping God in the face because He sent His son so you didn't have to do anything,except to ask Jesus into your heart.

So we can all be lazy asses and not give a crap about anyone or anything else, just so long as we accept Jesus?

Cool. Thanks.

Cool Site

http://ffrf.org/lfif/?t=contra.txt

Bible Contradictions
PAUL SAID, "God is not the author of confusion," (I Corinthians 14:33), yet never has a book produced more confusion than the bible! There are hundreds of denominations and sects, all using the "inspired Scriptures" to prove their conflicting doctrines.
Why do trained theologians differ? Why do educated translators disagree over Greek and Hebrew meanings? Why all the confusion? Shouldn't a document that was "divinely inspired" by an omniscient and omnipotent deity be as clear as possible?

"If the trumpet give an uncertain sound," Paul wrote in I Corinthians 14:8, "who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." Exactly! Paul should have practiced what he preached. For almost two millennia, the bible has been producing a most "uncertain sound."

The problem is not with human limitations, as some claim. The problem is the bible itself. People who are free of theological bias notice that the bible contains hundreds of discrepancies. Should it surprise us when such a literary and moral mish-mash, taken seriously, causes so much discord? Here is a brief sampling of biblical contradictions.


Should we kill?

Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

vs.

Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."
For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

Should we tell lies?

Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

vs.


I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Should we steal?

Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."

vs.


Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Shall we keep the sabbath?

Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

vs.


Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."

Shall we make graven images?

Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."

vs.


Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"

Are we saved through works?

Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

vs.


James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."
The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

Should good works be seen?

Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."
I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."

vs.


Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."
Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."

Should we own slaves?

Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."

vs.


Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."
Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Does God change his mind?

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

vs.


Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

vs.


Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Is God good or evil?

Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

vs.


Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

Does God tempt people?

James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

vs.


Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

Is God peaceable?

Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."
Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

vs.


Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."
Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Was Jesus peaceable?

John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."
Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."

vs.


Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Was Jesus trustworthy?

John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."

vs.


John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
"Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

Shall we call people names?

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]

vs.


Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]
Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

Has anyone seen God?

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."

vs.


Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

How many Gods are there?

Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."

vs.


Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."
I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

Are we all sinners?

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."

vs.


Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

How old was Ahaziah?
II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

vs.


II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

Should we swear an oath?

Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."
Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."
Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."
See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

vs.


Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

When was Jesus crucified?

Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."

vs.


John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him."
It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is the case.

Shall we obey the law?

I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."
Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.

vs.


Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."

How many animals on the ark?

Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark."
Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."
Genesis 7:15 "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."

vs.


Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."

Were women and men created equal?

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

vs.


Genesis 2:18,23 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. . . . And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Were trees created before humans?

Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

vs.


Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. . . And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."

Did Michal have children?

II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."

vs.


II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."

How many stalls did Solomon have?

I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

vs.


II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

Did Paul's men hear a voice?

Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

vs.


Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
(For more detail on this contradiction, with a linguistic analysis of the Greek words, see "Did Paul's Men Hear A Voice?" by Dan Barker, published in the The Skeptical Review, 1994 #1)

Is God omnipotent?

Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

vs.


Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Does God live in light?

I Timothy 6:15-16 " . . . the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach . . ."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
John 12:35 "Then Jesus saith unto them, . . . he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth."
Job 18:18 "He [the wicked] shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world."
Daniel 2:22 "He [God] knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." See also Psalm 143:3, II Corinthians 6:14, and Hebrews 12:18-22.

vs.


I Kings 8:12 "Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (Repeated in II Chronicles 6:1)
II Samuel 22:12 "And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies."
Psalm 18:11 "He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."
Psalm 97:1-2 "The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him."

Does God accept human sacrifice?

Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."

vs.


Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Exodus 22:29 "For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."
Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon . . . and the Lord delivered them into his hands. . . . And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: . . . And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed."
II Samuel 21:8-14 "But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal . . . and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest . . . And after that God was intreated for the land."
Hebrews 10:10-12 " . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . . . But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."
I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."

Who was Joseph's father?

Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."

vs.


Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."




Now edited for reading goodness

Jeez Occ, just blow up those floodgates why don't ya? lol.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 So we can all be lazy asses and not give a crap about anyone or anything else, just so long as we accept Jesus? Cool. Thanks.

obviously if you are a lazy ass and you do not give a crap about anyone you havent accepted Jesus. That just goes against the bible and his teachings.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Jeez Occ, just blow up those floodgates why don't ya? lol.

I had to post the contents of the entire site because the ones I would want to visit it wouldn't have. But I'm certain there's a rational explanation for each and every point because there are no contradictions of course.

C'mon ... even Ned Flanders admits it. And he's the holiest guy I know.

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Originally posted by albertoR obviously if you are a lazy ass and you do not give a crap about anyone you havent accepted Jesus. That just goes against the bible and his teachings.

Perhaps that is true, but in the core belief of Christianity, according to Nessa and Heinz, the only thing that truly matters is the belief in Jesus. Everything else merely falls by the wayside.

Now I know there are those who have committed heinous crimes, and there are those who's addictions to whatever sin albeit murder, rape, drugs, etc., who seemingly go against the teachings of Jesus and the 10 Commandments, yet are still able to receive a "free pass" into the Pearly Gates.

Not only is this unethical (which speaks volumes about the Christian God), but it says little about those "actions" you refer to (or lack of actions rather) that go against those teachings of Jesus.

Is this our dear Lord working in mysterious ways again?

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 This does not negate the possibility of creating sins regardless, so long as God forgives me in the end?

God knows our hearts, You think really differently when you're staring death in the face.

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Besides, there are plenty of addicts out there that simply can't control their sinful nature very well. True, God knows their hearts, but they continually commit sins relentlessly. So a rapist and serial killer (with addictive behaviors) will be saved so long as they believe in Jesus, versus a Buddhist monk who works for the PeaceCorps and does nothing but devotes his life to helping the needy.

That's not true. We know not to sin,and we can control it.
Ah,but a Buddhist monk has already rejected God. That's why he isn't permitted to heaven.

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Oh yeah, by your reasoning, shouldn't there be nothing but non-Christians and atheists sitting in jail?

Nope. Why would they need to be in jail?

Just apologizing if I miss typed anything, I can't see anything right now because I'm in the process of dying my hair..lol just waiting for it to set in.

Wicked nice post Occ!

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Ah,but a Buddhist monk has already rejected God. That's why he isn't permitted to heaven.

I really don't think he's going to care if the Christians think he's going to heaven or not considering he's a different religion.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 I can't see anything right now because I'm in the process of dying my hair..lol just waiting for it to set in.

Isn't that a sin for some reason?

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Originally posted by occrider Sigh ... and he who accepts God is good? Please, spare me the petty generalizations. Being good is not defined by a belief in God just as much as not believing in God does not define evil.

you've missed this one nellie, explain

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 That's not true. We know not to sin,and we can control it. Ah,but a Buddhist monk has already rejected God. That's why he isn't permitted to heaven.

I think he would be permitted to heaven. In fact, if we would judge by morals and actions, a buddhist monk is way more peaceful, respectful, and overall a better human being the most of the people in the world. Im probably generalizing here, and i don't know any monks, however Buddishm is a very peaceful religion, a monks keep to themselves and are in harmony with nature and everything else. I would believe your God would judge them by the life,morals,decisions and actions they took and not weather they accepted Jesus or not. Im sure there are christians and priests out there more sinful and a buddhist monk.

Also you are stating that the christian religion is the correct one. Im sure in your faith it is. But a buddisht faith is just as strong or stronger than yours, and his beliefs are just as valid. My point is, there is no use in judging who will go to heaven, maybe you should leave God to do that judgement.

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Originally posted by albertoR Also you are stating that the christian religion is the correct one. Im sure in your faith it is. But a buddisht faith is just as strong or stronger than yours, and his beliefs are just as valid. My point is, there is no use in judging who will go to heaven, maybe you should leave God to do that judgement.

Ahh but you see this is the crux of the argument. Christians claim to KNOW how God shall judge those going to heaven because they claim that the bible are the direct words from God. Therefore they can "authoritively" state that those who do not accept Jesus will not go to heaven .

I would actually say that a Buddhist's faith would be significantly weaker than a Christian's faith, if we put the same person in either circumstance. Only Christianity has the viruslike self-replicating insecurity that forces people to retreat into their little bubbles when their beliefs are brought into question. Buddhists would generally be more open-minded about life and hence be somewhat more suggestible or malleable.

Of course the silver lining is that although Buddhists could probably be swayed to some other belief system (like Taoism for instance), they would be far too rationally-minded to accept a a dogmatic religion like Christianity as an adult.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone really, what I'm trying to point out is that a Buddhist's confidence (or any other non-Abrahamic faith) comes from a tangible realization of tranquility and inner peace and an openness to new people and new ideas. They are not necessarily "faithful", but they are secure in themselves and therefore would have no use for self-hating Christianity.

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Originally posted by occrider Ahh but you see this is the crux of the argument. Christians claim to KNOW how God shall judge those going to heaven because they claim that the bible are the direct words from God. Therefore they can "authoritively" state that those who do not accept Jesus will not go to heaven .

The bible is not something that should be taken so literal, even Christians should know this. On top of that, the bible has been translated from the original which was in arameic and hebrew to latin, to all the other languages. Many verses have been changed in that process of translation. So if you think about it, the direct words from God might not be so direct. However a christian may say, a buddhist monk did not follow the 10 commandments so he will burn in the flames of hell. If that's the case, God isnt so merciful afterall, and christianity and derived religions are blind.

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Originally posted by albertoR I think he would be permitted to heaven. In fact, if we would judge by morals and actions, a buddhist monk is way more peaceful, respectful, and overall a better human being the most of the people in the world. Im probably generalizing here, and i don't know any monks, however Buddishm is a very peaceful religion, a monks keep to themselves and are in harmony with nature and everything else. I would believe your God would judge them by the life,morals,decisions and actions they took and not weather they accepted Jesus or not. Im sure there are christians and priests out there more sinful and a buddhist monk. Also you are stating that the christian religion is the correct one. Im sure in your faith it is. But a buddisht faith is just as strong or stronger than yours, and his beliefs are just as valid. My point is, there is no use in judging who will go to heaven, maybe you should leave God to do that judgement.

and yet another caveat of Buddhism towards Christianity or any other religion is that Buddhists are allowed to acknowledge, celebrate or support any other concepts or figures within religions outside of their own. (assuming those practices follow the teachings of Buddhism)

does Christianity? pretty much nil. its hard to feel accepting towards Christianity when so much of its 'organized teachings' are based on coercion and the exclusion of different groups of people.

an interesting conundrum: differences in Eastern and *more* Western religion are due to the difficulty of travel and the isolation of concepts and ideals. if Jesus were made aware of the teachings of Buddha, Confucius, et al - do you really think he would say they were far from what he strove towards?

(of course that would require devout worshippers to separate themselves from the vague memories of the Bible for imaginations sake - and assume they knew much about other religions)

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Originally posted by paranoik0 you've missed this one nellie, explain

Go look it up in the Bible my friend,there you will find all the answers to your questions.
Anyway, I'll explain what I choose to explain.

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Originally posted by albertoR I think he would be permitted to heaven. In fact, if we would judge by morals and actions, a buddhist monk is way more peaceful, respectful, and overall a better human being the most of the people in the world. Im probably generalizing here, and i don't know any monks, however Buddishm is a very peaceful religion, a monks keep to themselves and are in harmony with nature and everything else. I would believe your God would judge them by the life,morals,decisions and actions they took and not weather they accepted Jesus or not. Im sure there are christians and priests out there more sinful and a buddhist monk. Also you are stating that the christian religion is the correct one. Im sure in your faith it is. But a buddisht faith is just as strong or stronger than yours, and his beliefs are just as valid. My point is, there is no use in judging who will go to heaven, maybe you should leave God to do that judgement.

Buddhists don't believe in God, therefore they haven't accepted Jesus into their heart. Again,that's the only way into heaven.
A Buddhist has already committed a sin, the first commandment. But, that's not what keeps him from heaven, what keeps him from heaven is rejecting Jesus/God. So, no he won't be permitted to heaven.

Again, It's not how much sin you've committed,or how little. It's if you've repented for your sins, and if you've accepted Jesus into your heart. I'm sure many priests,and even a lot of people who call themselves Christians won't make it to heaven either.

I'm not judging each person,but I am telling you clearly what the Bible states. You all are asking me,so I'm just answering your questions. If you don't like the answers,that's not my problem.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 God knows our hearts, You think really differently when you're staring death in the face.

Pascal's Wager, once again:

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html

Why do Christians feel it necessary to "scare" people into conversion? Truly, this is in direct contradiction to the "peaceful, loving" God they continually profess. If God does, indeed, know my heart, as you point out below, He will most certainly know my intentions for trying to be as logical and as helpful on this planet as I can be. If that is not good enough for Him, then I would proclaim this God to be illogical and irrational (as it is clearly seen by his allowances and actions in a number of OT stories), and I want no part of Him. Period.

However, I do tend to believe God is a little bit above immaturity and irrationality. But that is merely my belief, and I freely acknowledge it as such.

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That's not true. We know not to sin,and we can control it.

You did not answer my question. It may or may not be controllable - that is not the point. What is the point is the action of sin. An addict continually performs the sin - a serial killer continually kills innocent children after he rapes them incessantly. But since he is a believer in Christ, regardless of his sins, he will be able to enter Heaven. Christ knows this killer's heart, and knows his beliefs are real, and somehow finds it okay to excuse his atrocious and evil behavior. And as you point out:

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Ah,but a Buddhist monk has already rejected God. That's why he isn't permitted to heaven.

Despite the wonderful deeds this monk has performed. If this is true, then I understand your point. Thank you for making this clear. It truly says wonders about this loving, peaceful, rational God.

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Nope. Why would they need to be in jail?

I believe this one flew completely over your head. Let's back up and see what you said:

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Once you make it right with God, you don't do those things. You have no desire to.

So it follows that only those who don't make it right with God, more specifically by accepting Jesus, are the ones who will sin and do evil. Therefore, only the atheists and non-Christians should be the ones committing sin, because Jesus is not in their hearts, and they should be the only ones occupying our jails.

I'm clear now. Thanks.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Go look it up in the Bible my friend,there you will find all the answers to your questions. Anyway, I'll explain what I choose to explain.

Can you show us where? There's quite a bit there.

Are you avoiding questions again? Please don't.

I find it a shame that so many people see the extremity of religion. I believe that you are judged on whether you have lived a life that was best to yourself and the people you know. You will be judged on ur life in accordance with how you treat people, help others, give to people in need, being unselfish. I do not think that if people do not accept Jesus they wont go into heaven, because whats wrong with this? they have done no harm to this earth if they have lived as i said, a good and decente life.

I know where Nellie is coming from because it seems he takes the bible literally, which is a shame because i see the bible as a teaching tool, a guide. GOd should not be feared.

Some people need to just think when they type coz its as if they are taking piss all the time, and it is quite insulting because religion is a part of allot of peoples lives, and some comments on here (wont mention anyway) have been very insulting (although i know that was not the intention).

If you wish to not follow religion, then thats great because allot of countries in todays world has free will, something that for so long all of us have been searching for, and also god gave you free will (or i BELIEVE he did) to choose whether to believe in him or not.

Just dont think this argument will ever be resolved because religion is about faith, faith in yourself and in your god, and science cannot measure faith.

Good descussion btw

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Pascal's Wager, once again: http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html Why do Christians feel it necessary to "scare" people into conversion? Truly, this is in direct contradiction to the "peaceful, loving" God they continually profess. If God does, indeed, know my heart, as you point out below, He will most certainly know my intentions for trying to be as logical and as helpful on this planet as I can be. If that is not good enough for Him, then I would proclaim this God to be illogical and irrational (as it is clearly seen by his allowances and actions in a number of OT stories), and I want no part of Him. Period.

We aren't trying to scare you into anything,we're just telling you what's going on,and how it is. Big difference.

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You did not answer my question. It may or may not be controllable - that is not the point. What is the point is the action of sin. An addict continually performs the sin - a serial killer continually kills innocent children after he rapes them incessantly. But since he is a believer in Christ, regardless of his sins, he will be able to enter Heaven. Christ knows this killer's heart, and knows his beliefs are real, and somehow finds it okay to excuse his atrocious and evil behavior. And as you point out:

Ask again then.

Again, we choose to sin or not to sin.
Of course there is a difference between ignorance,and stupidity. But, the fact of the matter is for those who know they are sinning,they know not to do it, and they can control it. It might be hard,but they can.

No you are totally not getting what I'm saying. You know, Satan believed/believes in Christ aswell,he knows Jesus and God are real. But, he isn't a follower, he isn't saved by them. There's a difference. If you are saved by Jesus Christ,then you will be permitted to heaven. Only God knows our hearts, you keep forgetting these details,friend.

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Despite the wonderful deeds this monk has performed. If this is true, then I understand your point. Thank you for making this clear. It truly says wonders about this loving, peaceful, rational God.

You are totally messed up on this. Shall I repeat once more? GOOD DEEDS WILL NOT GET YOU INTO HEAVEN. If that were the case,then why did Jesus even die on the cross? eh?
I quoted an old quote for you " The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions. "
Good deeds won't get you to heaven.

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So it follows that only those who don't make it right with God, more specifically by accepting Jesus, are the ones who will sin and do evil. Therefore, only the atheists and non-Christians should be the ones committing sin, because Jesus is not in their hearts, and they should be the only ones occupying our jails. I'm clear now. Thanks.

No,you aren't clear. Listen carefully, then you might comprehend what I'm telling you.

Those who are not saved by Jesus Christ,and have not repented for their sins, will not go to heaven. Is that clear? Ok,Good lets move on.

We all commit sin, we're all humans and we all make mistakes.Christians,atheists,Muslims,Jewish..etc etc etc. We all our sinners. But, some of us repent for our sin. There is a difference..

Now,you should be clear.
( to add, I hope you know this isn't a joke to me or others here.)

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Can you show us where? There's quite a bit there. Are you avoiding questions again? Please don't.

I don't know exactly where it is, I'll have to look for it.

And I never avoided questions in the first place.

But hey,you know it wouldn't hurt anyone to read the whole Bible anyway. Then again,you might actually learn something! That's probably why no one here wants to even pick it up.

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