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Originally posted by Psy-T he mentioned them because it seems you value the palestinans' lives only when they're taken away by israeli forces, rather than when they're taken away period.

I detest all loss of life. But foreign occupation and internal civil war are two completely different things.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Shoo fly. Go do some research on an Israeli charter that matches Hamas' or something...

How about you go get some common sense and and sense of reality and then perhaps your tiny brain might just begin to see that Israel has killed more palestinians than hamas can even dream of killing israelis.

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Originally posted by Psy-T as though not having retaliated would've painted us as saints in their minds and would've stopped the rockets flying into sderot on a regular basis? you should shut the fuck up about the 'fucking itself in the ass by this', seeing as the only way in your mind israel wouldn't be 'fucking itself in the ass' is far, far, far more fucking specific than that, and would require a large number of changes, and not just the absence of retaliation.

Israel is fuckin itself from this war like the past.you people never learn do you?

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they can't afford food or fuel, yet rockets fit in their budgets perfectly?

you fuckin serious?what do you mean "they"? what does that have to do with the INNOCENT PEOPLE OF GAZA suffering?

you are killing everyone in the city because of Hamas?what a bunch of killers the IDF truly is.

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imagine your neighbouring country voted for an organization whose primary purpose is the destruction of your country. how should your country (or the world at large) react?

sounds like Israel actually.since they would love to see the Palestinians wipped off the map.No worries though they wont always be able to get away from their disgusting crimes against humanity.At some point they ll be stopped.

Muslims Akhmed KALLALALALALALALALALA: Good

Israelis: Bad

Thanks for the insight guys.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer How about you go get some common sense and and sense of reality and then perhaps your tiny brain might just begin to see that Israel has killed more palestinians than hamas can even dream of killing israelis.

...and if your tiny brain could even comprehend that it's Hamas' fault for hiding behind those innocent people that voted them in power in the first place, you'd understand the irony and Hamas' plan perfectly...


/but I'm certainly not counting on it...

Hezbollah is in.

Damn..

Edit: It seems now Hezbollah is denying any involvement, also the type of rockets and their amateurish launching points to a sporadic attack by Palestinians. Israel decided to leave it at a short firing back for the protocol and nothing beyond.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton The assertion that Israel notifies civilians by calling them to warn them of a strike is completely laughable. Have they done it before? Maybe in a few isolated instances. Does that excuse anything? NO. I didn't see those sources, can you repost them. I still think its completely bogus that Israel is warning all these civilians before they bomb some neighborhood.

:/ you already saw the quoted article in question and replied to it earlier:

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Originally posted by Krypton about the warning leaflets Oh thank you. That gives them such a warm and fuzzy feeling inside doesn't it? Leave your home because we're about to bomb the fuck out of it. Disgusting...

anyway, here's the source: http://in.reuters.com/article/world...-37272820090103

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Originally posted by Krypton WTF are they supposed to do anyways? How would you like to be called and told, "Leave your home immediately, we're about to bomb the fuck out it."

i'd like it a lot if i was in a state of war and i valued my life over my property.

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Originally posted by Krypton LOL, they don't buy their rockets. They produce them. And how the hell would they afford electricity or other basic services when they are being blockaded.

well, how about by selling those weapons they produce, that sounds like a decent moneymaking cow right there. since you seem to imply said production doesn't cost much of anything.

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Originally posted by Krypton Their economy is completely destroyed. With most young men unemployed,

and that's entirely israel's fault? even if we assume israel is absolutely at fault for any and all aggressions between itself and gaza, it was the people of palestine who elected the hamas - a party which is devoted to war in an extreme way, and claimed to be so from the begining. the palestinans knowingly chose a party which values destruction of israel far more than construction of gaza, hence i submit they themselves are largely to blame for the state of their economy and the percentage of unemployment.

also, i seem to recall reading in this thread about greenhouses and other such amenities that were left in gaza by the israelis, for the palestinians' use, and were destroyed and looted (lol) by those same palestinians.

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Originally posted by Krypton I'm surprised you guys have yet to figure out Israel's actions are simply convincing angry unemployed young men to fight the power which they perceive to be responsible for their destitute situation.

either you're not including me in "you guys", or your view is distorted. i fully realize that israel's actions will provoke more palestinians to take up jihad. the problem is, inaction from israel would lead to the very same result. i'll get back to this point later in this post.

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Originally posted by Krypton First off, I'd forcibly close down all Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Second, my aim would never be to "neutralize" Hamas. I would have thought by now, as smart as Israel's establishment is, they don't realize the futility of "neutralizing" a popular resistance movement especially when the underlying grievances are not addressed. Third, I'd reach some sort of truce with Hamas, end the blockade, and cease all missile strikes. Fourth, I'd give East Jerusalem back to the Palestinians (I believe Israel annexed the area in 1967). Fifth, I start compensating Palestinian families for their property losses. That's just a first step, and I'd do it unilaterally too.

wasn't the first part already taken care of in the disengagement?
as for the second, the underlying grievances of the hamas are israel's existence, not its actions or inactions, just its existence, the only way to address them is to engage in absolute self destruction.
the third: no real truce is possible with the hamas, it goes completely against their charter. yes, there have been so-called truces in the past, but during each of those, hamas kept firing at israel.
the fourth: again, so long as the hamas, or an organization with a similar charter is in power, it doesn't matter what concessions israel makes, it will remain a target for jihad. so why bother giving any more concessions?
fifth: i tend to think that one will happen regardless, at the formal end of the aggressions.

now note how you've said that those 5 actions are just the first step, and i assume that by that you realize that it wouldn't end all the aggressions, and it definitely wouldn't end the jihad.
again, so long as the hamas or an organization with a similar charter is in power, it won't matter how many concessions israel makes, so long as it exists.


and another thing about palestine's economy: http://news.google.co.uk/archivesea...range=1980,2006
it's a bit beyond my depth to start reading all of those results (and ones i'd find under better search terms), but in a broad stroke they seem to indicate that palestine has been receiving financial aid internationally, before the war 'broke out'. where did all that money go? was there any indication it was used for economic rebuilding? or maybe can we just assume it was spent on weaponry?

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Israel is fuckin itself from this war like the past.you people never learn do you?

is that even supposed to be an argument? get a couple of brain cells functioning and get back to me then.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer you fuckin serious?what do you mean "they"? what does that have to do with the INNOCENT PEOPLE OF GAZA suffering?

i mean the same "they" krypton mentioned as not having electricity and phone service. IF YOU READ THE ARGUMENT MAYBE YOU'D REALIZE THE CONNECTION IT HAS. wow, i can use caps lock too .

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer you are killing everyone in the city because of Hamas?what a bunch of killers the IDF truly is.

fuck you, i'm not killing anyone. me != israel. me != the IDF.

but personally, i think that the civilians deserve what they get because they elected the hamas.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer sounds like Israel actually.since they would love to see the Palestinians wipped off the map.No worries though they wont always be able to get away from their disgusting crimes against humanity.At some point they ll be stopped.

you have an extremely fucking distorted view of reality, you don't even know what the organization you're supporting stands for. go read the hamas charter, and please fuck off until you have.

There's something to be said for the fact that citizens are accountable for the governments they democratically elect. If Hamas was a dictatorship that would be one thing, but the catch-22 of a democracy is that the government is accountable to the people but the people are accountable for the government.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov There's something to be said for the fact that citizens are accountable for the governments they democratically elect. If Hamas was a dictatorship that would be one thing, but the catch-22 of a democracy is that the government is accountable to the people but the people are accountable for the government.

you gotta avoid this line of thinking, children are citizens too. given gaza's high birth rate they have a larger concentration of children.


and that un releif truck that got shelled was ridiculous, Israel knew the precise coordinates of its voyage, but still managed to murk it.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r ...and if your tiny brain could even comprehend that it's Hamas' fault for hiding behind those innocent people that voted them in power in the first place, you'd understand the irony and Hamas' plan perfectly... /but I'm certainly not counting on it...

Still here?shouldnt be joining the rest of those IDF cowards to fight the evil terrorists in Gaza?

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Originally posted by Pst-T fuck you, i'm not killing anyone. me != israel. me != the IDF. but personally, i think that the civilians deserve what they get because they elected the hamas.

I personally think you are a typical zionist scumbag who doesnt give a fuck about the loss of civilians.Iam glad you finally admitted that.They deserve to get killed?wow and you want peace with them?think again.

quote:

you have an extremely fucking distorted view of reality, you don't even know what the organization you're supporting stands for. go read the hamas charter, and please fuck off until you have.

Learn to read moron,when did I say I support Hamas?Just because I support the people of Gaza and Iam against the Israeli aggression against the Palestinians somehow makes me a Hamas follower?you are just like the rest of your zionist friends,making lies and blindly supporting the actions of your government.
Get lost and go join the rest of those IDF sheeps and kill some more innocnet Arabs in Gaza.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer I personally think you are a typical zionist scumbag who doesnt give a fuck about the loss of civilians.Iam glad you finally admitted that.They deserve to get killed?wow and you want peace with them?think again.

lol, zionist, right, that's the reason i'm leaving the country next month, because i'm an extreme zionist. dumbass.

and i do give a fuck about the loss of civilians, just not the civilians who voted in power a government who wants to kill me without even knowing who i am. is that so irrational in your little bubble world? please forgive me for not sympathizing with the people who want me dead.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Learn to read moron,when did I say I support Hamas?Just because I support the people of Gaza and Iam against the Israeli aggression against the Palestinians somehow makes me a Hamas follower?you are just like the rest of your zionist friends,making lies and blindly supporting the actions of your government.

you don't support palestine's government, and you don't support the choice the majority of palestine's citizens made... what do you support 'the people of gaza' in then?

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Get lost and go join the rest of those IDF sheeps and kill some more innocnet Arabs in Gaza.

heh, no thanks, i managed to get myself dishonorably discharged for a reason, that reason wasn't so i could willfully re-enlist at a later point in order to kill your innocent arabs.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Shoo fly. Go do some research on an Israeli charter that matches Hamas' or something...

Regardless of what you think the charter might say, Israels actions are of what a terrorist would do.

Hamas' greatest hits in their own words... and this is before the current crisis. Ask yourself, do they value the life of their people, or do the simply value death as a top priority?

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T :/ you already saw the quoted article in question and replied to it earlier: anyway, here's the source: http://in.reuters.com/article/world...-37272820090103

"Because of the terrorist actions carried by some terrorist figures out of the area of residence against the state of Israel, the IDF was forced to immediately respond and act inside your area of residence," it says. For your own safety you are required to leave the area immediately."

And this justifies their actions how? Leave the area? To where? The place is sealed off. Where are they going to go while their homes are being destroyed?

quote:

i'd like it a lot if i was in a state of war and i valued my life over my property.

Tell that to a Palestinian whose home was bombed or bulldozed. Oh, at least they still have their lives!

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well, how about by selling those weapons they produce, that sounds like a decent moneymaking cow right there. since you seem to imply said production doesn't cost much of anything.

The Qassam rockets were specifically designed to be easy to manufacture, using common tools, and components. The fuel used to propel it is a widely available fertilizer. And the warheads are made up of Urea nitrate, another widely available fertilizer. The Qassams are cheap and easy to produce. So you argument that, firstly they spend their economy making them, secondly they should sell them, is blatantly a false conclusion.

quote:

and that's entirely israel's fault? even if we assume israel is absolutely at fault for any and all aggressions between itself and gaza, it was the people of palestine who elected the hamas - a party which is devoted to war in an extreme way, and claimed to be so from the begining. the palestinans knowingly chose a party which values destruction of israel far more than construction of gaza, hence i submit they themselves are largely to blame for the state of their economy and the percentage of unemployment.

Yes it is Israel's fault. Key word is "blockade". Angry young unemployed men = eager militants for Hamas.

quote:

either you're not including me in "you guys", or your view is distorted. i fully realize that israel's actions will provoke more palestinians to take up jihad. the problem is, inaction from israel would lead to the very same result. i'll get back to this point later in this post.

Israel gets action, first off, because Palestine is slowly being settled and annexed by Israel, who refuses to fully disengage. What do you expect of the occupied population? That they will accept the cards they've been dealt, and accept national humiliation?

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wasn't the first part already taken care of in the disengagement?

Disengagement? Gaza was hardly disengagement. Look at the West Bank. The place is cut up like Swiss cheese with radical Israeli settlements.

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as for the second, the underlying grievances of the hamas are israel's existence, not its actions or inactions, just its existence, the only way to address them is to engage in absolute self destruction.

I'm not talking Hamas. I'm talking about the PALESTINIAN grievances. Hamas thrives because the underlying issues are not being addressed or even recognized by Israel.

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the third: no real truce is possible with the hamas, it goes completely against their charter. yes, there have been so-called truces in the past, but during each of those, hamas kept firing at israel.

I simply don't agree.

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the fourth: again, so long as the hamas, or an organization with a similar charter is in power, it doesn't matter what concessions israel makes, it will remain a target for jihad. so why bother giving any more concessions?

Again, perhaps if the underlying issues were addressed, there would not be a jihad.

quote:

now note how you've said that those 5 actions are just the first step, and i assume that by that you realize that it wouldn't end all the aggressions, and it definitely wouldn't end the jihad. again, so long as the hamas or an organization with a similar charter is in power, it won't matter how many concessions israel makes, so long as it exists.

Well, it's fallacious to believe either Israel or Hamas could be eliminated. If both sides realize this, perhaps some progress could be made.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi you gotta avoid this line of thinking, children are citizens too. given gaza's high birth rate they have a larger concentration of children.

That's faulty logic. Children, whether Israeli or Palestinian, deserve to die no more than children under the Nazi regime. Does that mean their parents get a free pass on accountability? You don't think German children died during the firebombing of Dresden?

The unfortunate reality of war is that children are often killed. But if you think that Hamas gets a free pass simply because the demographics of the territory they preside over tilt in the favor of non-voting youth... that's just naive. And not at all how the world works. If the parents of Gaza were so concerned with the safety of their own children, why did they elect a violent entity?

Laying the blame solely at the feet of Israel for any civilian casualties is nearly as silly as laying it solely at the feet of the Palestinians.

This remains the best thing I've read on the subject. Dispassioned and cogent, it appraises both sides soberly.

quote:

05 Jan 2009 09:36 am Proportionality And Terror Noah Pollak asked me to provide some framework for a discussion of proportionality and just war theory with respect to the Israeli attack on Gaza. In re-reading my Catechism and brushing up on just war theory, I am struck first of all by how alien the context seems for the current war. The asymmetric nature of the threat and the emergence of failed states run by mafioso religious fanatics makes everything more complicated. You could argue that this makes just war theory more important, rather than less, since we are in danger of having the rules of war dictated by barbarians. Or you could argue, along with the neocons, that Jihadist barbarism demands a response in kind. I favor the first view. And it is nonetheless fair to say, I think, that Israel's actions in Gaza fail every traditional just war justification. In the history of the West, the laws of war are clear enough. You do not launch a just war if it leads to greater evils than the status quo ante. There must be a reasonable proportion between means and ends. Both sides should be able to acknowledge common human values, even as they fight over territory or ideology. And yet Hamas has never done this; has no capacity for abiding by even minimal moral norms, believes it has a moral responsibility to eradicate the Jewish state, and certainly finds the universalist and liberal moral law embedded in Western and largely Christian culture meaningless outside Islamic hegemony. Israel, for its part, is on a different moral plane than Hamas. Its internal critics write op-eds; they are not taken out and shot. But, in the face of what is, essentially, a 60 year war against enemies on all sides and within, it has long since disappeared down the self-reflecting mirrors of survivalist logic and existential panic. It looks to me like a society in danger of losing its sense of restraint to the logic of violence. It is lashing out because it feels it can do no other and senses its long-term survival at stake. Even if violence does not solve the problem and may make it worse, war can seem a better option now than disappearing passively in the next couple of decades. The stunning near-unanimity of Israelis behind the Gaza attack is proof of this. In Israel, it seems, it is always America in 2002. But the point of just war theory is to give us a vantage point outside any particular contingency. Even though I may provoke a Jewish-Catholic fight here, the Catholic Catechism has as useful and concise a statement of the right of self-defense as anyone: quote: At one and the same time: * the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain; * all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective; * there must be serious prospects of success; * the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition. Let's take each condition separately. Is the damage Hamas has inflicted on Israel "lasting, grave and certain"? Taking the vantage point of the conflict from May 2007 on, Hamas has fired several thousand Qassam Gaza2abidkatibgetty rockets with such imprecision that no distinction between civilian and military targets is meaningful (which is to say they were all war crimes). Until the recent conflict, Israel suffered 11 military deaths, 131 wounded, 8 civilian deaths and 83 wounded, with more than a hundred treated for shock. In a country of several million, these deaths and injuries were sustained within a relatively small and limited geographical area. (Gazans, in the same conflict, with a much smaller population and far more geographically concentrated, suffered 409 military deaths, 436 injured, and 92 civilian deaths - before the current outbreak even started.) The idea that the indefensible damage Hamas has inflicted on Israel makes an "all-out war" on all of Hamas and Gaza morally necessary in Charles Krauthammer's typically nuanced view, is obviously a non-starter. But one recalls that Krauthammer also believes in the moral imperative of torture. Have all other means of ending Hamas's aggression been shown to be impractical or ineffective? At some level, this is meaningless with Hamas. It exists in order to wage total war on Israel. But it is also unclear if the brutal economic embargo on Gaza - imposed by Egypt, Israel and the West for more than a year - was not actually already weakening Hamas from within, and rendering it less popular. It's certainly a plausible reading of recent history. And under just war theory, any possibility that the goal of restraining Hamas or undermining it could be achieved by non-military means renders the current Israeli counter-attack illicit. Are there serious prospects for success? We will see. Perhaps the "don't fuck with the Jews" message will finally be heard and a profound shift will occur in the hearts and minds of Gazans. But the Middle East's history of the past two decades (and its culture of eternal revenge) is not exactly encouraging in this regard. If the goal is to prevent any further missiles ever reaching Israel from Gaza, I can't see it working either. Even if it is immensely successful as a military operation, this is a very hard test to meet. Even a few missiles will represent a "victory" for Hamas among those Muslims whom we need to appeal to. Even if Hamas is effectively wiped out in Gaza, its leadership massacred, its infrastructure badly damaged, it is hard to see who would replace it, or how a completely failed state in Gaza would then be more likely to restrain Islamist violence than even Hamas. If the goal is to persuade Gazans to ditch Hamas, the war has so far been counter-productive, and has certainly exposed the Sunni Arab dictatorships' de facto alliance with Israel against Iran-backed Hamas. So far, the big winner - again! - is Iran. Is the evil inflicted by the war greater than the evil prevented? It seems clear to me at this stage that the answer is yes. The loss of life this past week has been huge - far greater than any other stage of the conflict, and out of all proportion to the damage Hamas has inflicted on Israel. In terms of casualties, we are talking about ratios of roughly a hundred to one. That makes this far from a close call morally. There is a reason, in other words, for many Europeans' horror. This is an extremely one-sided war, with one side essentially being attacked at will in a way that cannot avoid large numbers of civilian deaths. It is all very well understanding and sympathizing with Israel's dilemma in tackling Jihadist terror, as we should and must; it is another thing to watch women and children being terrorized and killed as they currently are in Gaza, with very little tangible gained as a result in terms of Israeli security. Maybe the long-term gains will shift the balance here. But those now arguing for exactly that proposition are those who believe the Iraq war has been a great success. I need to repeat: There is no "just war" excuse for Hamas' murderous terrorism or for its refusal to acknowledge or peacefully co-exist with Israel. But there's no reading of traditional just war theory that can defend what Israel is now doing and has done either. Maybe I am missing an element here. Or maybe just war theory cannot account for modern terrorism. But if that is the case, then an argument must be made for a new framework of just warfare that can account for that. It does seem to me that the combination of apocalyptic terror and WMDs shift the equation. But with Hamas, we are not talking about WMDs. And we have to acknowledge something the neocons rarely do: Hamas is more democratically legitimate than the King of Jordan, an unelected plutocrat who runs a torture state. Maybe Noah has a response to these points. I'm happy to air it. These are provisional thoughts and I reserve the right to adjust them. But until neoconservatives can do a better job at defending the morality of the current assault, they will lose the battle for global opinion, and deepen the crisis that the Israelis face in the new century.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.c...stion-of-p.html

nice article, but it doesn't really mention the palestinians' very real grievances.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN nice article, but it doesn't really mention the palestinians' very real grievances.

There are links in the original that deal with the rise of Hamas and discuss why Palestinians would turn to a militant group to represent their interests.

Sullivan has always been viewed as pro-Israel... but reading his blog this week you can almost see his mind changing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg

Is that you Flotser?

Wow, those BBC camera men must have feared for their lives being "threatened" by two 14 year old boys




Note: Hebron settlers are an extremist tiny fraction of Israeli society, just like every nation has its radicals on all end of the political spectrum. Hamas, however, creates an entire industry of hate, a society that is thoroughly intoxicated from kindergarten up until university.

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Originally posted by TranceGiant Wow, those BBC camera men must have feared for their lives being "threatened" by two 14 year old boys Note: Hebron settlers are an extremist tiny fraction of Israeli society, just like every nation has its radicals on all end of the political spectrum. Hamas, however, creates an entire industry of hate, a society that is thoroughly intoxicated from kindergarten up until university.

LOL...no. There are 500,000 people like this. Look at the West Bank; how it's cut up like Swiss cheese among Israeli extremist groups. And you wonder why Palestinians resist your encroachments.

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Originally posted by Krypton "Because of the terrorist actions carried by some terrorist figures out of the area of residence against the state of Israel, the IDF was forced to immediately respond and act inside your area of residence," it says. For your own safety you are required to leave the area immediately." And this justifies their actions how? Leave the area? To where? The place is sealed off. Where are they going to go while their homes are being destroyed?

i never said anything about justification in there. as to the rest: wherever they can go. wouldn't you in their shoes? or would you just rather die?

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Originally posted by Krypton Tell that to a Palestinian whose home was bombed or bulldozed. Oh, at least they still have their lives!

so you would rather die than live without your home, i see.

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Originally posted by Krypton The Qassam rockets were specifically designed to be easy to manufacture, using common tools, and components. The fuel used to propel it is a widely available fertilizer. And the warheads are made up of Urea nitrate, another widely available fertilizer. The Qassams are cheap and easy to produce. So you argument that, firstly they spend their economy making them, secondly they should sell them, is blatantly a false conclusion.

use that widely available fetilizer to grow crops then, or sell it. fertilizer is a commodity which is bought and sold around the world. and by the way, "conclusion" isn't the correct term, i didn't reach a conclusion, i gave a suggestion off the top of my head.

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Originally posted by Krypton Yes it is Israel's fault. Key word is "blockade". Angry young unemployed men = eager militants for Hamas.

that's just being blind and deaf to the hamas and its charter.

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Originally posted by Krypton Israel gets action, first off, because Palestine is slowly being settled and annexed by Israel, who refuses to fully disengage. What do you expect of the occupied population? That they will accept the cards they've been dealt, and accept national humiliation?

i don't know enough about the occupied population, the cards they've been dealt, or the supposed humiliation you mention to answer those questions.

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Originally posted by Krypton Disengagement? Gaza was hardly disengagement. Look at the West Bank. The place is cut up like Swiss cheese with radical Israeli settlements.

i do not wish to learn more about the disengagement at present, so i will not argue on this matter further. all i know is that there was a big fuss in israel regarding it, and the general impression among israelis (or at least the ones who don't educate themselves on these matters) is that it has been done.

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Originally posted by Krypton I'm not talking Hamas. I'm talking about the PALESTINIAN grievances. Hamas thrives because the underlying issues are not being addressed or even recognized by Israel.

at present the hamas and the palestinans are quite inseparable in that context, because the palestinians elected the hamas to govern them. so long as the hamas is in power, the grievances which led to them being in power are irrelevant vs the hamas' own 'grievances'.

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Originally posted by Krypton I simply don't agree.

you can 'simply not agree' until you're blue in the face, but that still doesn't change the fact that it appears in various spots in the hamas' charter, such as:

quote:

Article Thirteen: Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know." Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers? "But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120). There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith: "The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

source: http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

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Originally posted by Krypton Again, perhaps if the underlying issues were addressed, there would not be a jihad.

quote:

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

same source as above, same article (13).

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Well, it's fallacious to believe either Israel or Hamas could be eliminated. If both sides realize this, perhaps some progress could be made.

of course it is.

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