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-- Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11?
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| Originally posted by Trancer-X Even that much is dubious |
Atta looks a whole lot more like a government protected drug pilot than anything else. A government protected drug pilot? I read the rest but it's hard to find that kind of material convincing...
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| Originally posted by culorut Got it Lira, you believe that there are absolutely no lies in the official story then. |
probably been said somewhere in the 3k plus posts above but...
put option volume on american and united the day before and the morning of 9/11 was out of control above the normal daily average.
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| Originally posted by Lira More dubious than those reports? I mean, Atta looks a whole lot more like a government protected drug pilot than anything else. A government protected drug pilot? I read the rest but it's hard to find that kind of material convincing. |
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| N987SA On September 24, 2007 N987SA crashed in the Yucatan, Mexico, carrying 3.2 tons of cocaine. The Gulfstream II business jet was registered to Donna Blue Aircraft, Inc.[17] The Gulfstream with tail number N987SA has been involved in the transport of extraordinary rendition victims to Guantanamo Bay. Logs also show that the plane flew twice between Washington and Guantanamo and once between Oxford, Connecticut and Guantanamo. The American flights would have been CIA and Pentagon interrogators being ferried to interrogations at Guantanamo. At the time of the Guantanamo flights, the plane was managed by Air Rutter International, a California-based air charter service. It was then sold on August 30 to Donna Blue Aircraft, owned by two Brazilians and sold on to two Florida men on September 16. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendition_aircraft#N987SA |
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| A Learjet belonging to the true owner of the Venice flight school that trained both (official) terrorist pilots who flew into the World Trade Center was seized with more than 30 pounds of heroin onboard by Federal Agents in July of 2000 at the Orlando Executive Airport. Authorities at the time called it the biggest seizure of heroin ever found in central Florida. The seized plane belonged to 70-year old Wallace J. Hilliard of Naples, FL., multi-millionaire businessman, self-styled Mormon Bishop, and the newly-discovered secret owner of Huffman Aviation at the Venice Airport since its purchase in 1999, just months before terrorists began arriving in force in Southwest Florida. Hilliard was already well-known in aviation circles as the 'money man' and deep-pocketed financial backer of Rudi Dekkers, according to local aviation observers like chief flight instructor Tom Hammersly, who taught at the Venice Airport while the two flight schools there experienced a flood of Arab student pilots. http://911review.org/Sept11Wiki/Learjet.shtml |
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| (From American Conservative Magazine) Found in Translation FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds spills her secrets. By Philip Giraldi Most Americans have never heard of Sibel Edmonds, and if the U.S. government has its way, they never will. The former FBI translator turned whistleblower tells a chilling story of corruption at Washington�s highest levels�sale of nuclear secrets, shielding of terrorist suspects, illegal arms transfers, narcotics trafficking, money laundering, espionage. She may be a first-rate fabulist, but Edmonds�s account is full of dates, places, and names. And if she is to be believed, a treasonous plot to embed moles in American military and nuclear installations and pass sensitive intelligence to Israeli, Pakistani, and Turkish sources was facilitated by figures in the upper echelons of the State and Defense Departments. Her charges could be easily confirmed or dismissed if classified government documents were made available to investigators. But Congress has refused to act, and the Justice Department has shrouded Edmonds�s case in the state-secrets privilege, a rarely used measure so sweeping that it precludes even a closed hearing attended only by officials with top-secret security clearances. According to the Department of Justice, such an investigation �could reasonably be expected to cause serious damage to the foreign policy and national security of the United States.� After five years of thwarted legal challenges and fruitless attempts to launch a congressional investigation, Sibel Edmonds is telling her story, though her defiance could land her in jail. After reading its November piece about Louai al-Sakka, an al-Qaeda terrorist who trained 9/11 hijackers in Turkey, Edmonds approached the Sunday Times of London. On Jan. 6, the Times, a Murdoch-owned paper that does not normally encourage expos�s damaging to the Bush administration, featured a long article. The news quickly spread around the world, with follow-ups appearing in Israel, Europe, India, Pakistan, Turkey, and Japan�but not in the United States. Edmonds is an ethnic Azerbaijani, born in Iran. She lived there and in Turkey until 1988, when she emigrated to the United States, where she received degrees in criminal justice and psychology from George Washington University. Nine days after 9/11, Edmonds took a job at the FBI as a Turkish and Farsi translator. She worked in the 400-person translations section of the Washington office, reviewing a backlog of material dating back to 1997 and participating in operations directed against several Turkish front groups, most notably the American Turkish Council. The ATC, founded in 1994 and modeled on the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, was intended to promote Turkish interests in Congress and in other public forums. Edmonds refers to ATC and AIPAC as �sister organizations.� The group�s founders include a number of prominent Americans involved in the Israel-Turkey relationship, notably Henry Kissinger, Brent Scowcroft, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, and former congressman Stephen Solarz. Perle and Feith had earlier been registered lobbyists for Turkey through Feith�s company, International Advisors Inc. The FBI was interested in ATC because it suspected that the group derived at least some of its income from drug trafficking, Turkey being the source of 90 percent of the heroin that reaches Europe, and because of reports that it had given congressmen illegal contributions or bribes. Moreover, as Edmonds told the Times, the Turks have �often acted as a conduit for the Inter-Services Intelligence, Pakistan�s spy agency, because they were less likely to attract attention.� Over nearly six months, Edmonds listened with increasing unease to hundreds of intercepted phone calls between Turkish, Pakistani, Israeli, and American officials. When she voiced concerns about the processing of this intelligence�among other irregularities, one of the other translators maintained a friendship with one of the FBI�s �high value� targets�she was threatened. After exhausting all appeals through her own chain of command, Edmonds approached the two Department of Justice agencies with oversight of the FBI and sent faxes to Sens. Chuck Grassley and Patrick Leahy on the Judiciary Committee. The next day, she was called in for a polygraph. According to a DOJ inspector general�s report, the test found that �she was not deceptive in her answers.� But two weeks later, Edmonds was fired; her home computer was seized; her family in Turkey was visited by police and threatened with arrest if they did not submit to questioning about an unspecified �intelligence matter.� When Edmonds�s attorney filed suit to obtain the documents related to her firing, Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft imposed the state-secrets gag order. Since then, she has been subjected to another federal order, which not only silenced her, but retroactively classified the statements she eventually made before the Senate Judiciary Committee and the 9/11 Commission. Charismatic and articulate, the 37-year-old Edmonds has deftly worked the system to get as much of her story out as possible, on one occasion turning to French television to produce a documentary entitled �Kill the Messenger.� Passionate in her convictions, she has sometimes alienated her own supporters and ridden roughshod over critics who questioned her assumptions. But despite her shortcomings in making her case and the legitimate criticism that she may be overreaching in some of her conclusions, Edmonds comes across as credible. Her claims are specific, fact-based, and can be documented in detail. There is presumably an existing FBI file that could demonstrate the accuracy of many of her charges. Her allegations are not insignificant. Edmonds claims that Marc Grossman�ambassador to Turkey from 1994-97 and undersecretary of state for political affairs from 2001-05�was a person of interest to the FBI and had his phone tapped by the Bureau in 2001 and 2002. In the third-highest position at State, Grossman wielded considerable power personally and within the Washington bureaucracy. He had access to classified information of the highest sensitivity from the CIA, NSA, and Pentagon, in addition to his own State Department. On one occasion, Grossman was reportedly recorded making arrangements to pick up a cash bribe of $15,000 from an ATC contact. The FBI also intercepted related phone conversations between the Turkish Embassy and the Pakistani Embassy that revealed sensitive U.S. government information was being sold to the highest bidder. Grossman, who emphatically denies Edmonds�s charges, is currently vice chairman of the Cohen Group, founded by Clinton defense secretary William Cohen, where he reportedly earns a seven-figure salary, much of it coming from representing Turkey. After 9/11, Grossman reportedly intervened with the FBI to halt the interrogation of four Turkish and Pakistani operatives. According to Edmonds, Grossman was called by a Turkish contact who told him that the men had to be released before they told what they knew. Grossman said that he would take care of it and, per Edmonds, the men were released and allowed to leave the country. Edmonds states that FBI phone taps from late 2001 reveal that Grossman tipped off his Turkish contact regarding the CIA weapons proliferation cover unit Brewster Jennings, which was being used by Valerie Plame, and that the Turk then informed the Pakistani intelligence service representative in Washington. It is to be assumed that the information was then passed on to the A.Q. Khan nuclear proliferation network. Edmonds also claims that Grossman was instrumental in seeding Turkish and Israeli Ph.D. students into major American research labs by godfathering visas and enabling security clearances. She says that she reviewed transcripts in which the moles in the U.S. military and academic community involved in nuclear technology reportedly carried out several �transactions� involving the sale of nuclear material or information relating to nuclear programs every month, with Pakistan being a primary buyer. In the summer of 2000, the FBI recorded a meeting between a Turkish official and two Saudi businessmen in Detroit in which nuclear information stolen from an Air Force base in Alabama was offered: �We have a package and we�re going to sell it for $250,000,� the wiretap allegedly recorded. �The network appeared to be obtaining information from every nuclear agency in the United States,� Edmonds told the Times. She further reports that beginning in 1999, the FBI was investigating senior Pentagon officials who were assisting agents of foreign governments, including Turkey and Israel. Edmonds has not publicly named names at the Pentagon, but a website linked to her appears to be a non-incriminating instrument for identifying suspects without doing so directly. Its �rogues gallery� includes photos of Richard Perle and Douglas Feith. Perle was chief of the Pentagon�s prestigious Defense Policy Board when Edmonds was working at the FBI, and Feith was undersecretary of defense for policy. If either were being investigated, it would be a matter of record, as would any reasons for dropping the investigation. �If you made public all the information that the FBI have on this case, you will see very high-level people going through criminal trials,� Edmonds told the Times. She claims to have also learned that corrupt officials in the Turkish and Israeli Ministries of Defense falsified end-user certificates on weapons purchased in the United States to enable sales to third countries not allowed access to the technology. Principal recipients include the five �Stans� in central Asia�Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Kazakhstan. Furthermore, Edmonds says that former House speaker Dennis Hastert and at least two other congressmen were investigated as suspected recipients of illegal political contributions or even bribes from Turkish sources. Her website gallery includes photos of Congressmen Roy Blount, Dan Burton, and Tom Lantos, though she has not otherwise implicated any of the three directly. A low-level contractor might seem poorly positioned to expose major breaches of national security, but the FBI translators� pool, riddled with corruption and nepotism, was key to keeping these secrets from surfacing. Edmonds�s claims that the section was infiltrated by translators who should never have received security clearances and who were deliberately failing to translate incriminating material are supported by the Justice Department inspector general investigation and by an FBI internal investigation, which concluded that she had been fired after making �valid complaints.� One translator, Melek Can Dickerson, who had worked for three Turkish front organizations under investigation�she failed to reveal this when applying for employment�allegedly stamped many documents of interest �not pertinent,� removed classified documents from FBI premises, and forged signatures on classified documents relating to 9/11 detainees. An Urdu translator was the daughter of a Pakistani Embassy employee who worked for Gen. Mahmoud Ahmad, the head of the Pakistani intelligence service who is accused of authorizing a $100,000 wire transfer to Mohammed Atta�s Dubai bank account immediately before 9/11. The Justice Department IG report confirmed Edmonds�s charge that translators� section managers issued a go-slow order shortly after the terrorist attacks to create an artificial backlog that would justify an increase in budget and manpower. Those managers are reportedly still in place. Some have been promoted. Edmonds�s revelations have attracted corroboration in the form of anonymous letters apparently written by FBI employees. There have been frequent reports of FBI field agents being frustrated by the premature closure of cases dealing with foreign spying, particularly when those cases involve Israel, and the State Department has frequently intervened to shut down investigations based on �sensitive foreign diplomatic relations.� One such anonymous letter, the veracity of which cannot be determined, cites transcripts of wiretaps involving Marc Grossman and a Turkish Embassy official between August and December 2001, described above, in which Grossman warned the Turk that Brewster Jennings was a CIA cover company. If the allegation can be documented from FBI files, the exposure of the Agency cover mechanism took place long before journalist Robert Novak outed the company in his column on Valerie Plame in 2003. The anonymous informant conveniently provides the FBI file number containing the transcripts of the recorded conversations: FBI Washington Field Office, Counterintelligence Division, Turkish Unit File 203A-WF-210023. According to the source, the FBI also recorded a subsequent conversation in which a Turkish official contacted the Pakistani Embassy to inform an ISI officer of Grossman�s warning. The FBI also reportedly informed the CIA of the Grossman conversations to determine if there was any �conflict of interest,� presumably to determine if the CIA was running its own operation that might be compromised as a result of the phone tap. Curiously, the states-secrets gag order binding Edmonds, while put in place by DOJ in 2002, was not requested by the FBI but by the State Department and Pentagon�which employed individuals she identified as being involved in criminal activities. If her allegations are frivolous, that order would scarcely seem necessary. It would have been much simpler for the government to marginalize her by demonstrating that she was poorly informed or speculating about matters outside her competency. Under the Bush administration, the security gag order has been invoked to cover up incompetence or illegality, not to protect national security. It has recently been used to conceal the illegal wiretaps of the warrantless surveillance program, the allegations of torture and the CIA�s rendition program, and to shield the telecom industry for its collaboration in illegal eavesdropping. Both Senators Grassley and Leahy, a Republican and a Democrat, who interviewed her at length in 2002, attest to Edmonds�s believability. The Department of Justice inspector general investigation into her claims about the translations unit and an internal FBI review confirmed most of her allegations. Former FBI senior counterintelligence officer John Cole has independently confirmed her report of the presence of Pakistani intelligence service penetrations within the FBI translators� pool. Edmonds wasn�t angling to become a media darling. She would have preferred to testify under oath before a congressional committee that could offer legal protection and subpoena documents and witnesses to support her case. She claims that a number of FBI agents would be willing to testify, though she has not named them. Prior to 2006, Congressman Henry Waxman of the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee promised Edmonds that if the Democrats gained control of Congress, he would order hearings into her charges. But following the Democratic sweep, he has been less forthcoming, failing to schedule hearings, refusing to take Edmonds�s calls, and recently stonewalling all inquiries into the matter. It is generally believed that Waxman, a strong supporter of Israel, is nervous about exposing an Israeli lobby role in the corruption that Edmonds describes. It is also suspected that Waxman fears that the revelations might open a Pandora�s box, damaging Republicans and Democrats alike. Edmonds�s critics maintain that she saw only a small part of the picture in a highly compartmentalized working environment, that she was privy to only a fragment of a large operation to penetrate and disrupt the groups that have been stealing U.S. weapons technology. She could not have known operational details of what the FBI was doing and why. That criticism is serious and must be addressed. If Edmonds was indeed seeing only part of a counterintelligence sting operation to entrap a nuclear network like that of A.Q. Khan, the government could now reveal as much in general terms, since any operation that might have been running in 2002 has long since wound down. Regarding her access to operational information, Edmonds�s critics clearly do not understand the intimate relationship that develops between FBI and CIA officers and their translators. Operations run against a foreign target in languages other than English require an intensive collaboration between field officers and translators. The translators are invariably brought into the loop because it is up to them to guide the officers seeking to understand what the target, who frequently is double talking or attempting to conceal his meaning, is actually saying. That said, it should be conceded that Edmonds might sometimes have seen only a piece of the story, and those claims based on her own interpretation should be regarded with caution. Another objection is that Edmonds would only have seen �raw intelligence� that does not provide nuance and does not really indicate whether someone is guilty. That argument has merit, and it is undeniable that many intercepted communications lack context. But it ignores the fact that someone recorded in the act of taking a bribe or interceding to have a suspect in a criminal investigation released is behaving with a certain transparency. One either takes money or does not. There is very little interpretation that can change that reality. Sibel Edmonds makes a number of accusations about specific criminal behavior that appear to be extraordinary but are credible enough to warrant official investigation. Her allegations are documentable: an existing FBI file should determine whether they are accurate. It�s true that she probably knows only part of the story, but if that part is correct, Congress and the Justice Department should have no higher priority. Nothing deserves more attention than the possibility of ongoing national-security failures and the proliferation of nuclear weapons with the connivance of corrupt senior government officials. _________________________________________ Philip Giraldi, a former CIA Officer, is a partner in Cannistraro Associates, an international security consultancy. http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/jan/28/00012/ |
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| Originally posted by diesel_tron3000 probably been said somewhere in the 3k plus posts above but... put option volume on american and united the day before and the morning of 9/11 was out of control above the normal daily average. |
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| Originally posted by Krypton I answered your fucking question jackass...  ...What do you have that is better than the 9/11 commission report? I know. NOTHING... |
Apparently firefighters do not believe the official story either. 1 Million times better then any omission report krypton.
Firefighters For 9/11 Truth at Chicago 9/11/08 Street Action
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| Originally posted by culorut Dodging the question that will make you an ass again I see, I understand you cannot admit that the official story is bullshit otherwise you would serve no purpose in this thread. I never asked if the commission report was good or not, everyone knows it is garbage, try reading the last 20 posts or so. I asked you specifically if the official story given to public is 100% true, yes or no. Does not get any simpler than that. |
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| Originally posted by culorut Apparently firefighters do not believe the official story either. 1 Million times better then any omission report krypton. Firefighters For 9/11 Truth at Chicago 9/11/08 Street Action |
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| Have some fucking respect asshole.. |
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| Originally posted by culorut Respect? You and the other trolls dismiss the people who where actually there at ground zero and hold the commission report like a bible. |
It sure would have been nice if the Israelis had given us a heads up regarding the attacks of that day.
I mean, what was the point of keeping that info to themselves? 
Israeli spies knew about 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7LYQkjwaYA
I think it's fairly obvious why... you just stumbled upon this now? 
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| Originally posted by culorut Respect? You and the other trolls dismiss the people who where actually there at ground zero and hold the commission report like a bible. Firefighters know fires, who better to ask about them then about the fires you fucking moron. Wait I know you rather hear it from a collection of morons who where put together to write up a report on limited data who where not at ground zero and where set up to fail from the beginning. Go fuck yourself you flake. ps answer the question already you pussy. |
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| Originally posted by shaolin_Z I think it's fairly obvious why... you just stumbled upon this now? |
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| Originally posted by Fledz What percentage of firefighters agree with the view? How many of those suffered mental stress due to 9/11? Are human beings capable of lying subconsciously? |
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Graeme MacQueen, Founding Director of the Centre for Peace Studies (McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario) reads testimony from New York Fire Dept. firefighters:
"When we hit the 19th floor, something horrendous happened. It was like a bomb went off. We thought we were dead. The whole building shook."   http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packag...HIC/9110489.PDF
I thought that I saw...low level flashes...I saw flash-flash-flash, and then it looked like the building came down. You know like when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw." http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packag...HIC/9110008.PDF
"At first I thought it was... Do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear, 'pop-pop-pop-pop-pop'? That's exactly what, because I thought it was that, when I heard that frigging noise, that's when I saw the building coming down." http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packag...HIC/9110035.PDF
Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash kept popping, all the way around the building, and that building had started to explode." http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packag...HIC/9110192.PDF The New York City Fire Department, under the direction of Fire Commissioner Tom Von Essen, collected the testimony of 503 first-responder EMTs, Port Authority police, and firefighters. It came to 12,000 pages. The 9/11 Commission, run by White House appointee and insider, Philip Zelikow, rejected the testimony, just ignored it, not germane to the foregone conclusion. Also, somewhat explosive. MacQueen's statement was drafted for the Vancouver 9/11 Conference, June 22-24, 2007. Snowshoe Documentary films << COMPLETE ORAL HISTORIES> |
I still am amazed to this day how American government has gotten away with this. Either way, either some agency / group did this, or the terrorists (with some help), but one thing for sure is that US government intentionally ignored intelligence and warnings and allowed this to happen. They failed to prevent the attacks. They failed to protect the country. And ever since, have made things worse for the American people and for the world's security and stability. Its madness. Look at the situation from Palestine to Iraq to Afghanistan and Pakistan. Situation has tremendously deterioated since before 9/11.
I posted on here before, glad that my posts are buried, but the point is that whether the government did it or not they still failed and they took the wrong actions, lied to people all over again on the whole reasons for ivading Iraq, gave faulty reports (how some terrorists who died then turned up alive), and so on. And in the end, they got away with everything. Its horrible.
Goodbye democracy and goodbye freedom. If the most democratically country in the world can suffer this, that means that the world's turn for democracy is now rapidly deteriorating. Laws are passed more and more all over to curb peoples freedoms, and other things like censorship of media and internet.
Some people are just retarded, I guess. Some are viciously defending the governments while they fail to grasp the bigger picture, the things that are REALLY at stake here. Its appalling. The evidence to convict the government and its agencies will never see the light, the videotapes that are CLEARLY showing the planes hitting the Pentagon will never be released (because they were destroyed), and plenty of things have been confiscated and the government-paid folks have talked and talked enough to draw even in this argument. You see, just like Fox News, government folks dont have to win the argument to get their point across. They can make up some crazy fake evidence and shift it to the cospiracy wing that has little to do with actual story and spin it and make the whole 9/11 thing look like a joke. And they have succeeded. And they will succeed again. Its fucking disgusting.
LOL at the conspiracy theorist calling other people "retarded".
seriously, you have ZERO evidence with which to support any of your claims so i must wonder why the fuck youre bothering.
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN LOL at the conspiracy theorist calling other people "retarded". seriously, you have ZERO evidence with which to support any of your claims so i must wonder why the fuck youre bothering. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium There will never be enough evidence for you |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium You just wont accept that the US government or the folks behind it can do something like this. Thats all. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Just curious, as western media has been saying it, do you conclude that the Russian government was behind attacks that brought down some apartment buildings in 1999 and blamed it on the terrorists to restart a war in Chechnya? |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Yeah, fuck the eyewitness reports (previous post by Trancer-X), eh |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium the videotapes that are CLEARLY showing the planes hitting the Pentagon will never be released (because they were destroyed) |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN stop telling lies. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium You're lying to yourself. Its not a lie if I dont believe in the government's cover-up of 9/11. Until the government releases ALL evidence and ALL videos from cameras that were seized (the least they can do) |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium until all the questions are answered properly - this will always be a strong cover-up belief movement. Just look at the results of this poll - last time I checked, its not in your favour despite your 1,000,000 posts on this thread. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium How much money are they paying you to do this? |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium I personally still hope the government releases the FULL videos (not just the dam photo edits) of the alleged planes hitting the Pentagon. From the gas station - the tape that was seized and not released, thats right - the gas station across from the Pentagon. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Hundreds of cameras on the Pentagon and not a single one that can clearly show a plane hitting the Pentagon! WHAT A JOKE! Save your breath and dont bother posting the edited image frames ... |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium ANyways, why am I wasting my time feeding a troll? Are you a troll, pkc? Why are you still posting on this thread? Havent you HAD ENOUGH? We've heard your point loud and clear ... stop the bullshit. |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN prove to me that the government has ANY other videos of the plane hitting the building. your childish assumptions don't cut it. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Prove to me anything that I have that you dont know about. Makes more sense now? |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium And its not just this forum, the cover-up belief movement has strong support elsewhere... of course not everywhere, I mean, consider some conservative forum for example. I recall too many polls which show the strong scepticism of the government story. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium After all the government explanation and huge effort to show everything so clearly and beautifully and with open arms "all" evidence and proof, why is there still a huge degree of scepticism? You think people can get fooled so easily? |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Anyways, that does it for me on this thread for now ... |
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| Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ........oh look, its that time again! 10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists A useful guide by Donna Ferentes |
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