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-- Keyed tunes for Harmonic mixers
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btw just visited the site...great layout qualia...

thanks rafale, i just redid it this weekend, many more improvements to come ;-)

the online music search is a LOT better!

so lets get this right - its possible to mix these kind of tracks:

6a into a 3a
7a into a 4a

etc etc

what about major chords, does it still apply to them e.g can you mix a 6B into a 3B?

also what about the reversal can you mix a 3a into a 6a (not 6a into a 3a)

cheers

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular:

I am deeply thrilled that my thread has sparked this much enthusiasm and it is good to see that although the majority dismiss the value of this there are those of you who have taken it to hear.

My only boggle is this.
Instead of asking if one way or another sounds good, why don't you try it instead and you be the judge of whether it sounds good or not.
It's not always about conforming, sometimes it's about being experimental with it.
No one has ever taught me how to harmonically mix. It is something that I did naturally before 'I taught myself'the theory.

It's not that I mind giving anyone the information that they ask for but I think that you may be hurting yourself by the 'passive' approach to learning.

Go out and stand for something. Experiment, otherwise you will be one of they many DJ's who is just like the next.

Johnny2003
In answer to your question it's sometimes yes, sometimes no, depends on which octave the outgoing track compared to the incomming is in. It's actually quite a complicated answer to put into words.
Ultimately you should be able to hear if it's good or not. The ideal mix is that you should be getting a lift with this.

Cheers
Nem

sorry i use mix meister didn't know that i had so many wrong i'll correct them

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Hey Dallas, I have checked through your list and as Kev Boy stated there are quite a few errors. Worth checking again but do it with an instrument if you are using detection software. The one track that stands out for me is Dogzilla's remix of So Damn beautiful. You have detected this right but not 100%. It's one of those tricky ones because it changes key after the intro from Bm to F# minor and again the outro changes too so heads up when mixing this one. On the whole your list has a lot of good entries but have a look through it again and see if you can learn from it. Marco V - Solarize goes in 4a (Fm) Cheers Nem

Thanks for your help, I use mix meister and each program tells me a different key for different songs.. I'm getting very confused!
Any other ways besides using an instrument?? I only have a keyboard but I'm not too familiar with every key, only the easy ones like Am Dm and G#m .. haha
Thanks again.

one more question:

when i use fs2 theres a unit called 'key'
i analyze the mp3 , but the key is never revealed.. any ideas?

Could we PLEASE organize a TA list of songs w/ their keys? That would be really great. These programs are not very accurate and the web-sites have mixed answers and I think that having a list by TAers who are experienced with this would be really great.

dan--just a reminder, rapid evolution's main purpose is not as an automatic key detector, but a tool to determine this info yourself, and then to be able to see what songs can be made in key and how, and then save information about mixes you come up with, while at the same time conveniently sharing this info... (whew, one big run-on sentence!)

the one thing i hope, with all the websites, programs and postings, is that people don't become dependent on other people's key info... :-/

Lads,
I am loving this discussion! Good to see people are not just sticking to mixing perfectly in key! It does create mood changes by going from say Am to Cm.
I heard an interview with Oakenfold once where he said he can create any mood change he wants by going from one particular key to another, he can PREDICT what is going to happen on the dancefloor! I thought that this was amazing an then became obsessed with it myself! I sat down and listened to every single Oakenfold mix, and keyed every tune, and I have every mix he has done since 1998, and a few before! I then listened to the affect that going from one tune to another had on me, and noted what key change it was, and concluded that these key changes must have a similar affect on everyone, if what subconciously. I now do the same where you can pick your next tune by selecting the appropriate key, and have the knowledge of what will happen next!
Took a while to do this, and you have to be very careful mixing out of key, as I am talking about here. As we all know that mixing too incompatible chords on top of each other sounds horrible! So care and practise is needed! But say going from Am to Bm can lift you up, and remember the opposite also, Bm to Am. I am basically saying that you can mix any two keys together and create amazing mood changes, but be careful!!!!!!
I've heard 00 Fleming CDs and he mixes from Am to Cm and vice versa etc all the time. Alot of the mood changes are very subtle e.g. going from Bm to Gm compared with Bm to Dm. It doesn't always work, and can be more difficult to do there and then, but a bit of practise will help, and you can always mix percussion until the bassline/melody takes over to avoid clashes.

Keep up the good work lads

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 This isn't aimed at anyone in particular: I am deeply thrilled that my thread has sparked this much enthusiasm and it is good to see that although the majority dismiss the value of this there are those of you who have taken it to hear. My only boggle is this. Instead of asking if one way or another sounds good, why don't you try it instead and you be the judge of whether it sounds good or not. It's not always about conforming, sometimes it's about being experimental with it. No one has ever taught me how to harmonically mix. It is something that I did naturally before 'I taught myself'the theory. It's not that I mind giving anyone the information that they ask for but I think that you may be hurting yourself by the 'passive' approach to learning. Go out and stand for something. Experiment, otherwise you will be one of they many DJ's who is just like the next. Johnny2003 In answer to your question it's sometimes yes, sometimes no, depends on which octave the outgoing track compared to the incomming is in. It's actually quite a complicated answer to put into words. Ultimately you should be able to hear if it's good or not. The ideal mix is that you should be getting a lift with this. Cheers Nem

cheers - i kinda picked that up

quote:

Originally posted by Kev Boy Lads, I am loving this discussion! Good to see people are not just sticking to mixing perfectly in key! It does create mood changes by going from say Am to Cm. I heard an interview with Oakenfold once where he said he can create any mood change he wants by going from one particular key to another, he can PREDICT what is going to happen on the dancefloor! I thought that this was amazing an then became obsessed with it myself! I sat down and listened to every single Oakenfold mix, and keyed every tune, and I have every mix he has done since 1998, and a few before! I then listened to the affect that going from one tune to another had on me, and noted what key change it was, and concluded that these key changes must have a similar affect on everyone, if what subconciously. I now do the same where you can pick your next tune by selecting the appropriate key, and have the knowledge of what will happen next! Took a while to do this, and you have to be very careful mixing out of key, as I am talking about here. As we all know that mixing too incompatible chords on top of each other sounds horrible! So care and practise is needed! But say going from Am to Bm can lift you up, and remember the opposite also, Bm to Am. I am basically saying that you can mix any two keys together and create amazing mood changes, but be careful!!!!!! I've heard 00 Fleming CDs and he mixes from Am to Cm and vice versa etc all the time. Alot of the mood changes are very subtle e.g. going from Bm to Gm compared with Bm to Dm. It doesn't always work, and can be more difficult to do there and then, but a bit of practise will help, and you can always mix percussion until the bassline/melody takes over to avoid clashes. Keep up the good work lads

Agreed, what you are talking about is more to do with key changes than mixing in harmony but to be correct it is very powerful and can give an amazing lift on the dancefloor.

Cheers
Nem

hey does anyone know the keys of any of the following tunes:

love fist - hanging on a string (e craig) 6a ?
marcos - cosmic string (marc van linden) 5a ?
marc van linden - sunrise 8a ?
koglin & dewar - pushed on (stephen j kroos)
bk + nick sentience - flash
solo plastic - get down

i dont have a keyboard/guitar atm so its a bit hard to rely on just my ears n so if anyone could help me out here it'd be great..


cheerS !!

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Agreed, what you are talking about is more to do with key changes than mixing in harmony but to be correct it is very powerful and can give an amazing lift on the dancefloor. Cheers Nem

Nem/Kevboy,

if you guys could list out a few key changes and their associated effects it would be great!

so far I've read of

6a-->3a (Gm-->Bbm)
10a-->7a (Bm-->Dm)
10a-->6a (Bm-->Gm)
8a-->5a (Am-->Cm)
4a-->8a (Fm-->Am)

but i dont know what 'mood' it brings. hard to tell when i'm the one doing it.

The only other way i can figure out how to define which key changes bring on a feeling is by playing the chords on a keyboard/guitar and seeing how it sounds... but i dont have access to a musical instrument atm.

Rafale,
I would love to put down in words what moods these key changes make, but it is very difficult! Its just a feeling you get. Just listen to 2 tunes that are mixed together of known keys, and try to describe to yourself how the change made you feel. Going up a semi-tone (Am to Bbm) or up a tone (Am to Bm) should be obvious, likewise down the way.
Sorry, but its just practise and how it makes you feel, it may not affect everyone in the same way!

yeah i get it how the "one-semitone up" makes for a 'lift' in the mood, thats pretty obvious,.. but i didnt realise that say jumping two semitones would have a stronger effect..

anyway.. any other combinations to try other than those i mentioned ??

just get fl studio or something. you can key with it

its amamzing the effects you can create using the 3 step method - they are much more appealing to me than the 1 step up or even the normal 3a-4a, 3a-2a etc mixes. All those people who say that harmonic mixing limits the tunes you play - yeah right- with this new method we will all struggle to decide which tune to put on next,there are so many possibilities!!

i tried this short mixe and it sounded awesome, very different kind of uplift, amazing:

salt lake - rendezvous Cm
randy katana - in silence D#m
sunblind - believe F#m

ive been doing lots more too and they sound great!!!

i tried a mix from F to G# - didnt sound too good but i think it was the way the G# tune ended - i think it kinda changed key. Or maybe the major chords dont fit in with the 3 step method???

jp

quote:

Originally posted by johnny2003 its amamzing the effects you can create using the 3 step method - they are much more appealing to me than the 1 step up or even the normal 3a-4a, 3a-2a etc mixes. All those people who say that harmonic mixing limits the tunes you play - yeah right- with this new method we will all struggle to decide which tune to put on next,there are so many possibilities!! i tried this short mixe and it sounded awesome, very different kind of uplift, amazing: salt lake - rendezvous Cm randy katana - in silence D#m sunblind - believe F#m ive been doing lots more too and they sound great!!! i tried a mix from F to G# - didnt sound too good but i think it was the way the G# tune ended - i think it kinda changed key. Or maybe the major chords dont fit in with the 3 step method??? jp

Na, major chords is a different kettle of fish, thankfully there are not too many trance tracks that go in major keys.

Thought, I would let you know that the 3 step method is not taught anywhere else but here. Never seen it mentioned anywhere not even on the music theory sites... and some people have even told me that it wont work he he. One of Nem's own discoveries although I freely admit that I'm probably not the first to do it. Just worked it out through looking at a guitar... so if anyone else feels like sharing something like that we would love to hear about it.

Glad to see you enjoying it Johnny2003. You will find that this will make you different from a lot of other DJs.

Rafale
Simple rule really.
Take 3 from whatever number you are on or plus 4. Assuming you are in minor keys.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Na, major chords is a different kettle of fish, thankfully there are not too many trance tracks that go in major keys. Thought, I would let you know that the 3 step method is not taught anywhere else but here. Never seen it mentioned anywhere not even on the music theory sites... and some people have even told me that it wont work he he. One of Nem's own discoveries although I freely admit that I'm probably not the first to do it. Just worked it out through looking at a guitar... so if anyone else feels like sharing something like that we would love to hear about it. Glad to see you enjoying it Johnny2003. You will find that this will make you different from a lot of other DJs. Rafale Simple rule really. Take 3 from whatever number you are on or plus 4. Assuming you are in minor keys. Cheers Nem

nem i dont understand what u mean by this:

Simple rule really.
Take 3 from whatever number you are on or plus 4. Assuming you are in minor keys.

are you saying that, for example, if we had a tune playing in Gm (6A), and we want to mix, then you add 4(in mubers) which equals 10A (Bm) or take 3 which equals 3A (Dm)??

ive been steping up in 3's on the actual scale i.e. Fm(4A) to G#m (1a), G#m (1a) to Bm (10A) etc. Is this incorrect, should i be going up in numbers e.g 6A to 9A?

im confused

What is the best way to learn to hear keys? I havent played any instruments so I can not tell in what key a song is.. I can of course hear when a mix is awful or "in key", but not in which key it is

Jeremy1984

The best way to hear a key is by using a keyboard or other musical instrument. There has been much discussion here about using these programmes to key records, but I wouldn't touch them with the biggest barge pole you could find me! If they work for other people then great, but I've seen so many mistakes listed it puts real doubt in your mind.
It isn't difficult after some practise, only have to be able to match the note that is playing on your record with a note on your keyboard. At first it is difficult but it is best in the long run.

Johnny2003

Don't add numbers on and take numbers off. Take one record in a particular key, and then take as many records in as many different keys as you can get and mix them with this one record. See what moods it creates! Limitless possibilities!
Don't know what this 3 step method is, I assume its going from say Am to Cm, why not try Am to C#m or to Fm or to Ebm.
It may not be taught as they say, but listen to any film soundtrack or many classical pieces and the keys change all the time, been done for 100's of years! So for someone to say they came up with this idea is not quite right!

quote:

Originally posted by Kev Boy Jeremy1984 The best way to hear a key is by using a keyboard or other musical instrument. There has been much discussion here about using these programmes to key records, but I wouldn't touch them with the biggest barge pole you could find me! If they work for other people then great, but I've seen so many mistakes listed it puts real doubt in your mind. It isn't difficult after some practise, only have to be able to match the note that is playing on your record with a note on your keyboard. At first it is difficult but it is best in the long run. Johnny2003 Don't add numbers on and take numbers off. Take one record in a particular key, and then take as many records in as many different keys as you can get and mix them with this one record. See what moods it creates! Limitless possibilities! Don't know what this 3 step method is, I assume its going from say Am to Cm, why not try Am to C#m or to Fm or to Ebm. It may not be taught as they say, but listen to any film soundtrack or many classical pieces and the keys change all the time, been done for 100's of years! So for someone to say they came up with this idea is not quite right!

doesnt really answer my question!!! im still confused - ill wait for nem to reply :-)

jeremy i was in the same situation when i first started mixing... but your ear essentially needs to be trained to know the keys sound like. what i might recommend is playing a few songs that you know the key to, and then play the root note on an instrumental along with it at the same time. you could even play the root major/minor chord as well... do this for several songs and then try finding the root note/chord for a new song that you don't know the key too, it will start to click when everything is in key (although it takes time, have patience)... just a reminder, if you don't have an instrument you can download re2 from [[ LINK REMOVED ]]
it includes a full midi piano that you can control with the keyboard (midi meaning you can make it sound like a guitar or any other instrument that suits you)...

cheers!

quote:

Originally posted by Kev Boy Jeremy1984 The best way to hear a key is by using a keyboard or other musical instrument. There has been much discussion here about using these programmes to key records, but I wouldn't touch them with the biggest barge pole you could find me! If they work for other people then great, but I've seen so many mistakes listed it puts real doubt in your mind. It isn't difficult after some practise, only have to be able to match the note that is playing on your record with a note on your keyboard. At first it is difficult but it is best in the long run.

I kind of guessed that programs wouldnt be that reliable.. And in the end, training your ear is always better than trusting some stupid software

quote:

Originally posted by qualia jeremy i was in the same situation when i first started mixing... but your ear essentially needs to be trained to know the keys sound like. what i might recommend is playing a few songs that you know the key to, and then play the root note on an instrumental along with it at the same time. you could even play the root major/minor chord as well... do this for several songs and then try finding the root note/chord for a new song that you don't know the key too, it will start to click when everything is in key (although it takes time, have patience)... just a reminder, if you don't have an instrument you can download re2 from [[ LINK REMOVED ]] it includes a full midi piano that you can control with the keyboard (midi meaning you can make it sound like a guitar or any other instrument that suits you)... cheers!

Like i said.. i have never played an instrument so that's a big problem! But I will definitely try with the software midi piano


Thank you both for your advices

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