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-- Hugo...doing it again.
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Christ almighty you're either doing this on purpose or you're incredibly dense (I suspect it's the former but...)

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley CABLE AND SATELLITE

AND WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY HAD TO DO THAT??

am I talking to myself here?

Also, maybe you care to explain to the class why Venezuela's [then] largest national broadcast station wasn't on the air-waves for a month and a half after being refused their license AND why their central administration is now in Miami, Florida...

I say [then] because they've been stripped of their 'national broadcast' status the day they were revoked...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Erm is this sarcasm? Are you agreeing with me? From the quote you posted of me, I was asking what would happen to a media company in America that did this:

Yes and I was being sarcastic. And guess what, whatever the reaction by America OR THE EU it wouldn't be this:

quote:

1999 - Chavez forces private radio and TV stations to broadcast his hours-long speeches, blocking regular programming with political announcements or political commentary. 2001 - Chavez warns media following reports of military corruption, telling news channel Globovision "I should remind you that I could revoke that concession at any moment." . . . But, dependent on the government for advertising revenue, major private stations have changed their editorial line to favor a president whose brief ouster they had openly supported in 2002. . . . Chavez, 52, granted other channels an extension but changed their contracts so that their licenses come up for renewal again a few months before he faces re-election in 2012. The one Venezuelan station that avoids self-censorship and remains staunchly opposed to Chavez is only seen in limited areas across the South American nation of Amazon jungle, Andean mountains and Caribbean coastline. Chavez, who rules by decree, has publicly warned the station he will close it if he deems it has gone too far.

Or do you think that these actions are something that the EU would do and is wholly justifiable?

quote:

The "50/50" figure is explained in my thread about the media in Venezuela (tho this is either arrived before or after RCTV began broadcasting on cable, so if after, the figure would be back in favour of the opposition)

Give me the 50/50 breakdown. There's an equal number of pro-Chavez stations as anti-Chavez stations?

quote:

Yes and I replied. You highlighted these two events: For the 1999 event I'd need more information to see whether this was on public (government controlled) TV, or whether it was on private companies like RCTV (because the events of the 2002 coup would suggest the private media companies couldn't be forced to broadcast anything the government want). As for the 2001 event - that is entirely true. The government can revoke the licence of a media company at its dicression. And I think that criminal activity certainly warrants that (especially treason) However, I also highlighted two of those events you seem to have overlooked (and you never responded to it): Any comments?

Yes I highlighted far more than that.

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The second Reuters article was just the RCTV story, which I think we can put to bed now we all have accepted that it was never shut down, but just made to broadcast via a different media (which the government has every right to do)

Ummm no please read it again. Particularly ALL the parts I bolded.

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It's the same criticism of the decision not to renew RCTV's licence as made by everyone else from here to the media to the American government. I have said time and time again that this criticism is unfounded because it is based on the false assumption that RCTV was shut down and made illegal - clearly not the case as it is currently the most popular and most watched TV station in Vevezuela!

ARE THE EU'S CRITICISMS UNFOUNDED AND COMPLETELY BASELESS?? How many times do I have to ask this question?

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The reason I started that thread was to remove one of the accusations against Chavez from this thread to analyse it individually so the points were not lost amongst all the other accusations. Unfortunately, nobody who accused Chavez of media censorship made any comment on what I thought were interesting nuggets of information on the media in Venezuela that dispite what people think, is dominated by the opposition...

Chavez has done more to manipulate and control the media than RCTV alone. Is that not clear to you?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r AND WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY HAD TO DO THAT?? am I talking to myself here?

Because the government did not renew their licence to boradcast on the channel 2 frequency, am I talking to myself here?!

Firestarter - you claimed RCTV had been shut down, for fucks sake just be a man and admit that that's not true

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Yes and I was being sarcastic. And guess what, whatever the reaction by America OR THE EU it wouldn't be this:

If CNN staged a military coup, arrested President Bush for several hours, and were then caught out, the head of CNN would be in the electric chair...

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Give me the 50/50 breakdown. There's an equal number of pro-Chavez stations as anti-Chavez stations?

Like I said, I already did in the media thread (which you guys don't seem to have the stomach for, preferring instead your circular arguments)

quote:

As with most questions about Venezuela, there is almost complete disagreement about what Venezuela’s media landscape looks like. According to the opposition, Chavez already controls most of the broadcast media, either directly, though state ownership or sponsorship, or indirectly, via supposedly repressive media laws. According to Chavez supporters, though, the opposition controls 95% of all media. .......... Given the political positions and the relative audience shares of the different media outlets, we can divide Venezuela’s media landscape into three categories of opposition, neutral or balanced, and pro-government. Before RCTV’s demise it looked as follows: Opposition: 50-55% RCTV: 35-40% Globovisión: 10% Private local: 5% Neutral or balanced: 30-40% Venevisión: 20-25% Televen: 10-15% Pro-government: 20-25% VTV: 15-20% Other (Telesur, Vive, Community): 5% Now, in the post-RCTV era there is indeed a significant shift, so that the media landscape could look as follows, if, as promised, TVes (RCTV’s replacement) does not become a pro-government channel, but is neutral. Opposition: 15% Globovisión: 10% Private Local: 5% Neutral/balanced: 30-40% or more Venevisión: 20-25% Televen: 10-15% TVes: ??% Pro-government: 20-25% VTV: 15-20% Other: 5% .......... However, there are three unknowns that could change the ratio in favor of the opposition. First, those who used to watch RCTV might very well watch more Globovisión, thus increasing their share of the audience. Second, Venevisión could very well become more oppositional, now that many opposition supporters are looking for a new home. There are already first indications that this will happen, according to a recent news report in the weekly newspaper Quinto Dia.[5] And third, many lovers of RCTV who want to continue watching it but did not have cable access, might, if they can afford it, switch to cable to watch RCTV. Thus, if Globovisión’s audience share increases, if Venevisión moves back into the oppositional column, and if RCTV continues to attract a large audience on cable,[6] then the opposition to pro-government balance in the Television media could easily swing to at last 1:1. .......... In any case, RCTV and the opposition have once again bungled the political situation. Instead of challenging Chavez in the political arena, they focused exclusively on legal challenges, international appeals, and confrontation. They could have organized a consultative (non-binding) referendum back in January, right after it was clear that Chavez would not renew RCTV’s license. Polls indicated that the up to 70% of Venezuelans did not want RCTV to go off the air. With only 10% of registered voters’ signatures the Electoral Council would have been forced to convoke a referendum on the issue. If the polls are accurate, the opposition would have won that referendum easily, thereby embarrassing Chavez and perhaps forcing him to renew RCTV’s license. Maybe this course of action did not occur to anyone in the opposition, but more likely is that they prefer to challenge Chavez in the legal and international arenas and on the streets than politically because actions that use Venezuela’s democratic processes would legitimate a political system that the opposition continuously decries as a dictatorship and whose ultimate goal it is to de-legitimate. http://www.zmag.org/content/showart...fm?ItemID=12986

Now that RCTV is back on the airwaves, altho their share of the market will have been reduced due to being on cable, the media landscape will now be more like the first breakdown. It's roughly equal between the anti-Chavez and pro-Chavez (tho that depends how popular the pro-Chavez channels are, which don't have the fancy soap operas of the opposition!!)

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Yes I highlighted far more than that.

So no comments about the two events I highlighted, interesting...

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Ummm no please read it again. Particularly ALL the parts I bolded.

I have responded to the bold parts. If there's something else you want me to comment on you're gonna have to explain exactly what you want...

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ARE THE EU'S CRITICISMS UNFOUNDED AND COMPLETELY BASELESS?? How many times do I have to ask this question?

How many fucking times do you want me to answer it!? Yes, I said in my post before, I even fucking say "I have said time and time again that this criticism is unfounded" WHICH PART OF THAT ARE YOU HAVING DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING?!!?!?!?

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Chavez has done more to manipulate and control the media than RCTV alone. Is that not clear to you?

Oh, well in that case I'll take your word for it. I mean, who am I to question what you say, it's not like every post you have written in this thread has been wrong or complete media fabrication is it? I believe you 100%

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If CNN staged a military coup, arrested President Bush for several hours, and were then caught out, the head of CNN would be in the electric chair...

Ummm so RCTV STAGED the coup as opposed to endorsed it huh? Might want to get your facts straight.

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Like I said, I already did in the media thread (which you guys don't seem to have the stomach for, preferring instead your circular arguments)

What circular arguments did I make? Point them out to me? Heh so let me try to understand the statistics you’re referencing.. So according to you, the pre/post chavez actions resulted in the following actions:

Pre Chavez:

Opposition Networks 50-55%
Neutral stations were 30-40%
Pro-Government 20-25%

Post Chavez:

Opposition Networks 15%
Neutral media 30-40%
Pro-Government 20-25%

Learn some goddamn math . And the stipulation from that site was that RCTV’s replacement would not be a government channel …. Hey it was a government channel.

quote:

So no comments about the two events I highlighted, interesting...

Yea the media was anti-government. What’s new? Are Chavez’s response legitimate if it were the US, the US, etc???

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I have responded to the bold parts. If there's something else you want me to comment on you're gonna have to explain exactly what you want...

You accept every part that I bolded? You think that all those actions are legitimate? Really? Heh?

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How many fucking times do you want me to answer it!? Yes, I said in my post before, I even fucking say "I have said time and time again that this criticism is unfounded" WHICH PART OF THAT ARE YOU HAVING DIFFICULTY UNDERSTANDING?!!?!?!?

Pardon me. Perhaps I missed the part where you said that the Eus criticism is unfounded. I apologize for that. Can you point out the exact post where you said this?

quote:

Oh, well in that case I'll take your word for it. I mean, who am I to question what you say, it's not like every post you have written in this thread has been wrong or complete media fabrication is it? I believe you 100%

Are you willing to justify everything that Chavez has done that I posted? I could care less whether you think I’m fabricating shit. I know I post from credible sources. Don’t try to be coy or cute… if you’re disputing something I say than actually do it rather than fuck around the bush.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Because the government did not renew their licence to boradcast on the channel 2 frequency, am I talking to myself here?! Firestarter - you claimed RCTV had been shut down, for fucks sake just be a man and admit that that's not true

They WERE shut down; for a MONTH AND A HALF.
What part of that sentence don't you understand?

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Are you willing to justify everything that Chavez has done that I posted?

He does with me and everyone else on this subject...

3000+ people have viewed this thread, and they all got to see a proud socialist (smiley) vigorously defend this piece-of-shit tinpot dictator in Venezuela..

As far as I'm concerned, george is doing the forces of capitalism a huge favor. Please let him continue

As bad I think socialism is, the US should just accept what's happening in Venezuela as a reaction to the circumstances that they face, which is poverty and curruption. If the Venezuelans really didn't want Hugo and wanted a multi-party system, then they would have done something about. Take up arms or something. They havn't.

The UN Charter garentees... Each state has the right to freely choose and develop its own political, social, economic, and cultural systems.

If they want Hugo, then they're getting Hugo. Doesn't matter what we think, or what the US thinks or anything else. This is what the Venezuelans want. Now whether they know the implications or not of what they have chosen has yet to be known. But I don't see anyone taking up arms against Hugo. If they want to return to democracy, then they'll do it themselves, they'll either fight for it, or by some other means. We can't force it on them like we're doing to Iraq. Freedom isn't given, it's fought for. In every totalitarian state, the people themselves have to fight for their freedom, it can't be handed to them on a silver platter.

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Originally posted by Krypton As bad I think socialism is, the US should just accept what's happening in Venezuela as a reaction to the circumstances that they face, which is poverty and curruption. If the Venezuelans really didn't want Hugo and wanted a multi-party system, then they would have done something about. Take up arms or something. They havn't. The UN Charter garentees... Each state has the right to freely choose and develop its own political, social, economic, and cultural systems. If they want Hugo, then they're getting Hugo. Doesn't matter what we think, or what the US thinks or anything else. This is what the Venezuelans want. Now whether they know the implications or not of what they have chosen has yet to be known. But I don't see anyone taking up arms against Hugo. If they want to return to democracy, then they'll do it themselves, they'll either fight for it, or by some other means. We can't force it on them like we're doing to Iraq. Freedom isn't given, it's fought for. In every totalitarian state, the people themselves have to fight for their freedom, it can't be handed to them on a silver platter.

That may all be well and good, but we can still call it what it is and recognize it as such.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka That may all be well and good, but we can still call it what it is and recognize it as such.

I would somewhat disagree. Though Hugo goes against our capitalist democratic norms, why should we cut off friendly relations with them? Or with Cuba? But we're good ole' buddy buddy with China. The US foreign policy hypocritical, and I'll go as far as to say there may be a hidden agenda we don't know about. We should be friendly with all country's regardless of what their political structure is, just as long as they don't violate another country's sovereignty. Friends solve problems much better than enemies. We got North Korea to end its nuclear program by being friendly to them, not saber rattling. Even though they have concentration camps, experiment on human subjects, and oppress their people to bone, threatening the country would have no changed anything. It is up to the North Koreans to decide their fate. Even if they're brainwashed, that's their decision to make.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r They WERE shut down; for a MONTH AND A HALF. What part of that sentence don't you understand?

Ah you've changed your tune haven't you?!

You were trying to tell me that RCTV was shut down and banned a few days ago, now you've changed your mind and telling me they were only "shut down" for a month and half...

But that's not being shut down is it? That's just RCTV setting their Cable network up

RCTV has never been prevented from broadcasting, the government simply exercised a LEGITIMATE RIGHT not to renew their licence for the channel 2 frequency - you never answered my question - what gives RCTV the RIGHT to broadcast on that frequency and why is any Venezuelan government OBLIGED to renew their licence?

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt 3000+ people have viewed this thread, and they all got to see a proud socialist (smiley) vigorously defend this piece-of-shit tinpot dictator in Venezuela.. As far as I'm concerned, george is doing the forces of capitalism a huge favor. Please let him continue

My point throughout is that the accusations against Chavez have, for tha most part, been media fabrications or media spin designed to cast Chavez in a certain light so that people with limited intelligence are not able to spot the lies. Maybe he is a dictator, maybe he isn't, but what I am sure of is that what you think about him has been fabricated by the Venezuelan and American right-wing media, for the sole purpose that Chavez nationalised the oil industry - posing a direct threat to corporate America...

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Originally posted by occrider Ummm so RCTV STAGED the coup as opposed to endorsed it huh? Might want to get your facts straight. What circular arguments did I make? Point them out to me? Heh so let me try to understand the statistics you’re referencing.. So according to you, the pre/post chavez actions resulted in the following actions: Pre Chavez: Opposition Networks 50-55% Neutral stations were 30-40% Pro-Government 20-25% Post Chavez: Opposition Networks 15% Neutral media 30-40% Pro-Government 20-25% Learn some goddamn math . And the stipulation from that site was that RCTV’s replacement would not be a government channel …. Hey it was a government channel. Yea the media was anti-government. What’s new? Are Chavez’s response legitimate if it were the US, the US, etc??? You accept every part that I bolded? You think that all those actions are legitimate? Really? Heh? Pardon me. Perhaps I missed the part where you said that the Eus criticism is unfounded. I apologize for that. Can you point out the exact post where you said this? Are you willing to justify everything that Chavez has done that I posted? I could care less whether you think I’m fabricating shit. I know I post from credible sources. Don’t try to be coy or cute… if you’re disputing something I say than actually do it rather than fuck around the bush.

I'm starting to lose the will to live with this thread but I shall respond to some of your points:

RCTV participated in the Coup

The media is pretty balanced according to the stats (which don't include RCTV coming back on their air)

GW Bush's response to the media coup would be to have the coup leaders executed for treason, so I would say Chavez's response of letting them all off the hook incredibly lenient

I have no idea which parts you bolded. I think I responded twice to the post so if you want me to reply again you'll have to repeat it because I'm not going back to look

The EU's criticism is unfounded

I don't justify everything Chavez has done, I just dispute most of what the media say about him, and in turn, those who believe it

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley My point throughout is that the accusations against Chavez have, for tha most part, been media fabrications or media spin designed to cast Chavez in a certain light so that people with limited intelligence are not able to spot the lies. Maybe he is a dictator, maybe he isn't, but what I am sure of is that what you think about him has been fabricated by the Venezuelan and American right-wing media, for the sole purpose that Chavez nationalised the oil industry - posing a direct threat to corporate America...

Preach brotha preach

This corporatocracy need to end. It is not free market economics, its capitalist imperialism. Our own brand of stateless terrorism. Reformation is inevitable.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Preach brotha preach This corporatocracy need to end. It is not free market economics, its capitalist imperialism. Our own brand of stateless terrorism. Reformation is inevitable.

Serious question:

Would any of you on here slating Chavez even know where to point to Venezuela on a map were it not for the nationalisation (sorry, RE-nationalisation) of the oil industries?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley

Oh, I'm referring to American protectionism of its oil interests.

Remember when Egypt nationalized its industries in 1950's? Guess what happened? France and the UK invaded!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Ah you've changed your tune haven't you?! You were trying to tell me that RCTV was shut down and banned a few days ago, now you've changed your mind and telling me they were only "shut down" for a month and half... But that's not being shut down is it? That's just RCTV setting their Cable network up RCTV has never been prevented from broadcasting, the government simply exercised a LEGITIMATE RIGHT not to renew their licence for the channel 2 frequency - you never answered my question - what gives RCTV the RIGHT to broadcast on that frequency and why is any Venezuelan government OBLIGED to renew their licence?

I didn't change shit, you just weren't listening.

Legitimate right my ass. The only thing Chevez is legitimizing is himself.
While they might have 'had the right' you don't find it a bit odd after 50 YEARS of RCTV being Venezuela's number one channel, they suddenly need to be denied? Because they oppose the government? Please give your head a shake. Like that NEVER happens in any other country...
It's a clamp on free speech and nothing more.

And you never did answer why it is that their main administrative building is now located in Miami, Florida???
Could it be that if they know that if they remained in Venezuela, Chevez would probably arrest them (if not shoot them). Why would that be? I thought they could air in Venezuela via SATELLITE AND CABLE.
Why not remain at home?
Name me one other number one broadcaster in the world, for their country, that has their office OUTSIDE THEIR OWN COUNTRY.
Are you getting the picture yet?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I didn't change shit, you just weren't listening.

No you've claimed all along that Chavez shut RCTV down. You tried to deny that everytime I gave you evidence it was not true until you couldn't possibly deny it any further. Now to save face you trying to tell me RCTV was only shut down for 1.5 months. Even if that were true, it completely takes anything away from your argument as the fact of the matter is RCTV is broadcasting to Venezuela today. For your argument to stand, RCTV would not be broadcasting today.

But I'll humour you, are you telling me Chavez only censored the media for 1.5 months? If so, will you now admit the media is not censored?

quote:

Legitimate right my ass. The only thing Chevez is legitimizing is himself.

Yes or no: The decision to renew broadcast licences on specific frequencies is the responsibility of the current government?

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While they might have 'had the right' you don't find it a bit odd after 50 YEARS of RCTV being Venezuela's number one channel, they suddenly need to be denied? Because they oppose the government? Please give your head a shake. Like that NEVER happens in any other country... It's a clamp on free speech and nothing more.

Here you go again, reverting to your previous accusation that RCTV has been shut down - tell me - how is allowing RCTV to broadcast in Venezuela clamping down on free speech?

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And you never did answer why it is that their main administrative building is now located in Miami, Florida???

The RCTV operation in Miami started in 1982, hardly a "relocation" is it? They still have offices in Caracas (RCTV C.A, Dolores a Puente Soublette, Qta. Crespo, Caracas, DC 1010, VE) it's just the administration (ie legal side) that is now located in Miami, so the owners can get around Venezuelan law (not the law preventing them from broadcasting before you say because no such law exists). Chavez requires tv stations to broadcast his speeches, and that is one thing I will critcise him for, RCTV understandably, don't want to do that, and think that being legally international will allow them not to do so.

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Could it be that if they know that if they remained in Venezuela, Chevez would probably arrest them (if not shoot them). Why would that be?

But they are in Venezuela. And technically, the owners should be in jail for treason - agree?

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I thought they could air in Venezuela via SATELLITE AND CABLE. Why not remain at home?

They can and they did.

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Name me one other number one broadcaster in the world, for their country, that has their office OUTSIDE THEIR OWN COUNTRY. Are you getting the picture yet?

When you say "their office" that implies the singular, which is incorrect. RCTV's main office, where their owners work and they make all their TV programs is in Caracas (Venezuela). RCTV International is based in Miami (since 1982) and they hold the legal entity of RCTV merely as a technicality.

So, what you meant to ask me was, "name me one other number one broadcaster in the world, for their country, that has AN office outside their own country"

Shakka, please delete this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt Shakka, please delete this thread.

I second that motion!!!!!!

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