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-- Israel bombs Gaza...again.
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Yohan, based on what you said, it seems that you dont know(or atleast i presume you dont know) the history of the Lebanese civil conflict in which Israel intervened and advanced halfway up their country. All he is saying is that their arguement is somewhat substantial knowing what happened historically. I mean, America funded many clandestine terrorist in central america as late as the reagan administration, meanwhile pointing fingers at so called terrorist supporters. Not to mention Israel was helped founded by sponsored terrorism....Menachim Begin is still a "freedom fighter" lol
and no, I am not a terrorist, nor do i support terrorist acts.
"Chomsky seems approving of Hezbollah kidnapping of Israeli soldiers"
How do you get this conclusion after he says its a very very irresponsible act.
He is speaking in the context of "Ok, so now they're kidnapped(very irresponsible), I hope people are freed and an exchange takes place(towards better relations), but this is not likely(shitty).
"The crimes against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and elsewhere, particularly Lebanon, are so shocking that the only emotionally valid reaction is rage and a call for extreme actions. But that does not help the victims. And, in fact, it�s likely to harm them. We have to face the reality that our actions have consequences, and they have to be adapted to real-world circumstances, difficult as it may be to stay calm in the face of shameful crimes in which we are directly and crucially implicated."
Noam is just calling it like it is, he always makes it clear that it is a shitty reality, but reality nonetheless. You are dellusional if you think the 1.5 million Gazans will all of a sudden love Israel after this nonsense, and extreme acts of terror will cease.
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| Originally posted by DJ Damerchi Yohan, based on what you said, it seems that you dont know(or atleast i presume you dont know) the history of the Lebanese civil conflict in which Israel intervened and advanced halfway up their country. All he is saying is that their arguement is somewhat substantial knowing what happened historically. I mean, America funded many clandestine terrorist in central america as late as the reagan administration, meanwhile pointing fingers at so called terrorist supporters. Not to mention Israel was helped founded by sponsored terrorism....Menachim Begin is still a "freedom fighter" lol and no, I am not a terrorist, nor do i support terrorist acts. |
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"Chomsky seems approving of Hezbollah kidnapping of Israeli soldiers" How do you get this conclusion after he says its a very very irresponsible act. He is speaking in the context of "Ok, so now they're kidnapped(very irresponsible), I hope people are freed and an exchange takes place(towards better relations), but this is not likely(shitty). |
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"The crimes against Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and elsewhere, particularly Lebanon, are so shocking that the only emotionally valid reaction is rage and a call for extreme actions. But that does not help the victims. And, in fact, it�s likely to harm them. We have to face the reality that our actions have consequences, and they have to be adapted to real-world circumstances, difficult as it may be to stay calm in the face of shameful crimes in which we are directly and crucially implicated." Noam is just calling it like it is, he always makes it clear that it is a shitty reality, but reality nonetheless. You are dellusional if you think the 1.5 million Gazans will all of a sudden love Israel after this nonsense, and extreme acts of terror will cease. |
by extreme actions, he means that they will pretty much go to extreme and do as much damage with their given resources, no matter how deprived they be...till the death mentallity has been instilled in these people. so if they had nukes they would use it. He is just making an observation, a prediction of what will happen.
but chomsky for many is an agree to disagree character. same with Ron Paul, a few people at PDD think he's a full on nutjob
I don't know but all it take is some reading up on history other then CNN.
How would you feel if someone came to your home, then invited more friends over, eventually taking over one of the rooms and declaring that now it belongs to them, at the same time taking even more. So now you go and fight for your right, but they take away your access to weapons, so no longer you can fight like a man, so you go and sacrifice yourself.
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Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty  |
the isrealis are really good at what they do
and ethnic cleansing is what they do
A few hundred of these and the problem would be solved.
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| Originally posted by UmmiE WOW.........pretty much thats all I can say. |
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| Originally posted by dj_souvlaki I wish it was the other way around. |
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| Originally posted by Anas Attia Deny Israel's existence? who the fuck are you kidding. go fuck yourself who ever you are. your just a hater. I am all for human rights and your telling me I don't believe in co-existence? Why in the fucking world would I not? All I am saying is there are people dying and it can be stopped, not fuck Israel... I cant believe how people like you can come to conclusions like that. And how can you say something like hammas and I will be fulfilled? FUCK YOU BIG TIME buddy. don't words in my mouth. |
Sickens me when i see that concrete wall. shits gonna hit the fan oh so hard.
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| Originally posted by Adam420 Israel shouldn't bomb mosques while prayers are going on  That's just not cool, and prayers are always at the same time so it's not like they could say they don't know when they take place. |
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| Originally posted by MarkT as you point out, the rocket attacks cause little damage and almost no injury or loss of life...so what's the point? |
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| Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty |
Here's what I don't get, and what really pisses me the fuck off.
Protestors. Here, in Canada. In my own city. In my neighbouring cities.
These people and/or their families before them likely came here to escape the bullshit going on over there. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU PROTESTING IT IN CANADA?
DON'T BRING YOUR BULLSHIT HERE. Leave it back there where it belongs. If you want to protest, get a goddamn plane ticket and do it where the action is. Don't muck up my city with your stupid bullshit.
That pisses me off so much. Canada has NOTHING to do with this, these people are wasting their time protesting, and I speak of both sides.
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| Originally posted by VERTiG0 DON'T BRING YOUR BULLSHIT HERE. Leave it back there where it belongs. If you want to protest, get a goddamn plane ticket and do it where the action is. Don't muck up my city with your stupid bullshit. |
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| Honestly, is this guy for real? This has got to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever read. Effectively what he's saying is that terrorists who hide amongst civilians should be able to attack with impunity, and that any attempts to stop them are war crimes. And he suggests that the inaccuracy of the rockets at least partially justifies civilian casualties, ignoring the fact that they are being fired nowhere near a single target of military importance. |
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| Originally posted by VERTiG0 Here's what I don't get, and what really pisses me the fuck off. Protestors. Here, in Canada. In my own city. In my neighbouring cities. These people and/or their families before them likely came here to escape the bullshit going on over there. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU PROTESTING IT IN CANADA? DON'T BRING YOUR BULLSHIT HERE. Leave it back there where it belongs. If you want to protest, get a goddamn plane ticket and do it where the action is. Don't muck up my city with your stupid bullshit. That pisses me off so much. Canada has NOTHING to do with this, these people are wasting their time protesting, and I speak of both sides. |
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| Originally posted by VERTiG0 Here's what I don't get, and what really pisses me the fuck off. Protestors. Here, in Canada. In my own city. In my neighbouring cities. These people and/or their families before them likely came here to escape the bullshit going on over there. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU PROTESTING IT IN CANADA? DON'T BRING YOUR BULLSHIT HERE. Leave it back there where it belongs. If you want to protest, get a goddamn plane ticket and do it where the action is. Don't muck up my city with your stupid bullshit. That pisses me off so much. Canada has NOTHING to do with this, these people are wasting their time protesting, and I speak of both sides. |
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| Originally posted by Abercrombie You are correct, Hamas's rockets have lost the lives and caused injuries of very little in comparison to the thousands they rained on Israel the last several years. |
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| Originally posted by jad - A crippled economy, |
.
This debate is way too tiring to keep writing detailed replies, so I'm resorting to point form here:
- Noam Chomsky was brilliant in his original field, but his political theories have always been highly suspect, as he cherry-picks his facts and tends to ignore context, particularly prior history.
- The map showing the "loss of Palestinian land" is misleading for several reasons:
* It suggests that there was a pre-existing Palestinian government when it was in fact controlled by the British, and earlier on was in pieces controlled by the various surrounding Arab powers.
* It ignores the actual population density - understandable on a territory map, but nevertheless gives a false impression of equal land use.
* The word "loss" suggests that it was somehow out of their hands. It's akin to a chart showing somebody's "loss of net worth" while they were investing 50% of their earnings in high-risk stocks and spending another 40% on drugs and booze.
* It doesn't show any other part of the region for context; that whole area is like a nickel on a football field.
- The notion of a return to pre-1967 borders is nonsensical because those areas are densely inhabited. It's impossible for those people to just pick up and leave, and it would also be nearly impossible for Israel to defend itself with those borders at this point. Can you really blame them for not trusting Palestine not to mount an attack from their new territory, when that is exactly what they've done with every other piece of recovered territory?
- Even if we could be 100% positive that such an agreement would completely end all hostilities, the idea of returning so much land after so many wars with no strings attached is unprecedented. It's like asking the U.S.A. to give Texas back to Mexico. Only with Israel does the rest of the world actually expect such massive concessions to be made.
- Once again, and it's unbelievable that I have to keep saying it, this isn't a land claim. That's a convenient way for westerners to frame it because it's easier for us to understand, but so-called loss of land is not the root cause of the fighting.
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| Originally posted by djeso How would you feel if someone came to your home, then invited more friends over, eventually taking over one of the rooms and declaring that now it belongs to them, at the same time taking even more. So now you go and fight for your right, but they take away your access to weapons, so no longer you can fight like a man, so you go and sacrifice yourself. |
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| Originally posted by DigiNut Oh goody, I love the analogy game. Let's try a new one: After searching for a couple of months in peak season, you and a few of your good buddies finally find a decent apartment in downtown Toronto for rent. You sign the lease and move in. It's in OK condition but you have to get a lot of repairs done. Other than that, everything is super for about a month. Then the next day there's a couple of guys waiting at your door; they say they had some friends that were supposed to be moving in but had to wait until their old lease was up and that you're going to have to leave. You say hey, sorry guys, but this is the first I've heard of it, and you should've said something to me before I signed the lease, and we kind of like this place, and besides, I really don't think it's up to you guys because you don't own the building. A couple of hours later you're just getting back from your grocery shopping and there's an angry mob at your door. Not realizing that two of your buddies are 3rd-degree black belts, they start a fight and subsequently get their asses whipped. You all tell the landlord what happened and he evicts them. You have some other friends that are now in the market so you tell them about the vacant apartment. They move in, everybody's happy. Except it turns out that the old gang moved in on the floor below you and started telling everybody how you whipped their asses and forced them out, so a few weeks later an even bigger mob shows up with knives, but you aren't stupid, you saw this coming and started stocking up on baseball bats a week ago, and you call your friends from down the hall to help out and together you once again whip their asses and have them thrown out. Couple of days later you're talking to some more distant friends, acquaintances really, but you tell them what happened and they say hey, we actually just started looking for a place with some of our friends but we want to stay together, and you say that's great because they actually just evicted two tenants and you can both move in. After a few more rounds of this, it's hard to remember anymore how it started, but everybody's in pretty rough shape physically and psychologically, so a bunch of you decide to go for drinks, talk things over. Everyone agrees firstmost that the feud has got to stop, but the devil's in the details. At the end they say look, we don't care anymore, our friends already found a different apartment, sorry for all the shit we caused and could we just get our original apartment back? And you say look, that's a very reasonable request but our close friends have been living there for like 8 months, and sure, you were there first, but they're there now and we can't just tell them to leave, and even if we did, it's not up to us, it's their decision. Dude says fine then, fuck you, if we can't even have OUR pad back then we'll just make YOUR life hell until you move out, and leaves in a huff. End of negotiation. Then one of your distant friends three floors down who moved in just a month ago says, screw this, I don't want to live here anymore getting harassed, I'm taking off. So you meet up again with Mr. Asshole and say hey, one of our posse just moved out, so as a sign of good faith we've told the landlord that he should give it back to the guy who was there before if he still wants it, and so maybe as a sign of good faith you and your posse could tone it down just a little. And he says that's great, now we're getting somewhere, but unfortunately that isn't _MY_ apartment and I'm still living in the 3B coat closet with Halitosis Hal, so I'll do what I can but I barely know half of these people and I'm still pretty f*ckin' pissed off myself. And for a while things do settle down, but it's not long before everybody's forgotten about what just happened and the gang wars start again, and of course the guy you convinced the landlord to let back in is in on it too. So at that point you say, well this is bullshit, we throw these douchebags a bone and immediately they try to get us out on the street again. Fuck them, we're not doing any more favours. And so on, and so forth, the saga continues. Yes, this is an absurd analogy. Yes, it's completely one-sided. But it's more accurate than yours for at least three reasons: 1. It acknowledges the 3rd-party ownership of the original property; 2. It identifies the reason for the "occupation". 3. It reveals an actual escalation of hostilities as opposed to a mysterious land grab. In the future, let's try not to oversimplify so much. |
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| Originally posted by DigiNut Oh goody, I love the analogy game. Let's try a new one: After searching for a couple of months in peak season, you and a few of your good buddies finally find a decent apartment in downtown Toronto for rent. You sign the lease and move in. It's in OK condition but you have to get a lot of repairs done. Other than that, everything is super for about a month. Then the next day there's a couple of guys waiting at your door; they say they had some friends that were supposed to be moving in but had to wait until their old lease was up and that you're going to have to leave. You say hey, sorry guys, but this is the first I've heard of it, and you should've said something to me before I signed the lease, and we kind of like this place, and besides, I really don't think it's up to you guys because you don't own the building. A couple of hours later you're just getting back from your grocery shopping and there's an angry mob at your door. Not realizing that two of your buddies are 3rd-degree black belts, they start a fight and subsequently get their asses whipped. You all tell the landlord what happened and he evicts them. You have some other friends that are now in the market so you tell them about the vacant apartment. They move in, everybody's happy. Except it turns out that the old gang moved in on the floor below you and started telling everybody how you whipped their asses and forced them out, so a few weeks later an even bigger mob shows up with knives, but you aren't stupid, you saw this coming and started stocking up on baseball bats a week ago, and you call your friends from down the hall to help out and together you once again whip their asses and have them thrown out. Couple of days later you're talking to some more distant friends, acquaintances really, but you tell them what happened and they say hey, we actually just started looking for a place with some of our friends but we want to stay together, and you say that's great because they actually just evicted two tenants and you can both move in. After a few more rounds of this, it's hard to remember anymore how it started, but everybody's in pretty rough shape physically and psychologically, so a bunch of you decide to go for drinks, talk things over. Everyone agrees firstmost that the feud has got to stop, but the devil's in the details. At the end they say look, we don't care anymore, our friends already found a different apartment, sorry for all the shit we caused and could we just get our original apartment back? And you say look, that's a very reasonable request but our close friends have been living there for like 8 months, and sure, you were there first, but they're there now and we can't just tell them to leave, and even if we did, it's not up to us, it's their decision. Dude says fine then, fuck you, if we can't even have OUR pad back then we'll just make YOUR life hell until you move out, and leaves in a huff. End of negotiation. Then one of your distant friends three floors down who moved in just a month ago says, screw this, I don't want to live here anymore getting harassed, I'm taking off. So you meet up again with Mr. Asshole and say hey, one of our posse just moved out, so as a sign of good faith we've told the landlord that he should give it back to the guy who was there before if he still wants it, and so maybe as a sign of good faith you and your posse could tone it down just a little. And he says that's great, now we're getting somewhere, but unfortunately that isn't _MY_ apartment and I'm still living in the 3B coat closet with Halitosis Hal, so I'll do what I can but I barely know half of these people and I'm still pretty f*ckin' pissed off myself. And for a while things do settle down, but it's not long before everybody's forgotten about what just happened and the gang wars start again, and of course the guy you convinced the landlord to let back in is in on it too. So at that point you say, well this is bullshit, we throw these douchebags a bone and immediately they try to get us out on the street again. Fuck them, we're not doing any more favours. And so on, and so forth, the saga continues. Yes, this is an absurd analogy. Yes, it's completely one-sided. But it's more accurate than yours for at least three reasons: 1. It acknowledges the 3rd-party ownership of the original property; 2. It identifies the reason for the "occupation". 3. It reveals an actual escalation of hostilities as opposed to a mysterious land grab. In the future, let's try not to oversimplify so much. |
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| Originally posted by ChemEnhanced you won't believe it but this exact thing happened to a friend of a friend of mine. The shit is still going down. |
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| Originally posted by ChemEnhanced you won't believe it but this exact thing happened to a friend of a friend of mine. The shit is still going down. |
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