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-- Hugo...doing it again.
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| Originally posted by Capitalizt Shakka, please delete this thread. |
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| Originally posted by Shakka Why? |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley RCTV participated in the Coup |
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The media is pretty balanced according to the stats (which don't include RCTV coming back on their air) |
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GW Bush's response to the media coup would be to have the coup leaders executed for treason, so I would say Chavez's response of letting them all off the hook incredibly lenient |
Thank you for posting the most ridiculous thing I have read today. Not only an unsubstantiated strawman but an irrelevant one as well. A godwin in modern sense. Bringing Bush into the discussion does not aid your argument against me unless you can actually use it constructively. The problem is is that A)I'm not a bush supporter and B) Even if Bush DID do exactly the same thing I'm not making an ideological hyprocritical appeal whereby I'm endorsing Chavez's behaviour among ANY other candidate. Sorry you're going to have to do better than that. | quote: |
I have no idea which parts you bolded. I think I responded twice to the post so if you want me to reply again you'll have to repeat it because I'm not going back to look |
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The EU's criticism is unfounded |
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I don't justify everything Chavez has done, I just dispute most of what the media say about him, and in turn, those who believe it |
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| Originally posted by occrider Ah so what do you think the pro-government stations did and what happened to them? No doubt they were shut down too?? Or did they not "participate"? |
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| And it's "pretty balanced" because a dictator is actively promoting and improperly promoting a pro-government line over free speech. Yes ... that's a lot better. |
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| Wow. Not only do you introduce a fallacy but you accentuate it with gross hyperbole. Yes George Bush would EXECUTE JOURNALISTS!!!! Therefore Chavez is a model of leniency!!! Thank you for posting the most ridiculous thing I have read today. Not only an unsubstantiated strawman but an irrelevant one as well. A godwin in modern sense. Bringing Bush into the discussion does not aid your argument against me unless you can actually use it constructively. The problem is is that A)I'm not a bush supporter and B) Even if Bush DID do exactly the same thing I'm not making an ideological hyprocritical appeal whereby I'm endorsing Chavez's behaviour among ANY other candidate. Sorry you're going to have to do better than that. |
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| It's all bolded in one post about 2-3 pages back. It's all in the same place that you selectively quoted me already so let me know if you can't find your way back. |
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| Well so far you have defended nearly EVERYTHING Chavez has done. Despite the fact that now we know you consider the EU's claims to be completely unfounded, you don't justify "everything" he has done. Can you tell us what actions Chavez has done that you think to be unjustifiable? |
Do me a favour mate, sort ya quotes out!!
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Would any of you know where to point to Venezuela on a map if Chavez had not re-nationalised the oil industry? |
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| Originally posted by Q5echo uhh, no? we still can't if your implying that we, as Americans, have only paid attention to him because of what he does with his oil then thats absurd. we can't even find Iraq on a map! |
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i'm almost positive LazFX would have trouble with Canada. |
Hugo Chavez threatening to nationalize private schools that will not change to his government's new textbooks. George Orwell unavailable for comment...........
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| Chavez threatens to nationalize non-compliant private schools * Story Highlights * Chavez: All schools must submit to the government's new educational standards * Opponents accuse president of aiming to indoctrinate young Venezuelans * Chavez: "Society cannot allow the private sector to do whatever it wants" * Chavez: Capitalist ideology has destroyed "the values of children" CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez threatened Monday to close or take over any private school that refuses to submit to the oversight of his socialist government as it develops a new curriculum and textbooks. "Society cannot allow the private sector to do whatever it wants," said Chavez, speaking on the first day of classes. All schools, public and private, must admit state inspectors and submit to the government's new educational system, or be closed and nationalized, with the state taking responsibility for the education of their children, Chavez said. A new curriculum will be ready by the end of this school year, and new textbooks are being developed to help educate "the new citizen," said Chavez's brother and Education Minister Adan Chavez, who joined him in a televised ceremony at the opening of a public school in the eastern town of El Tigre. The president's opponents accuse him of aiming to indoctrinate young Venezuelans with socialist ideology. But the education minister said the aim is to develop "critical thinking," not to impose a single way of thought. Just what the new curriculum will include and how it will be applied to all Venezuelan schools and universities remains unclear. "We want to create our own ideology collectively -- creative, diverse," the president said, adding that it would help develop values of "cooperation and solidarity." All schools will be bound to "subordinate themselves to the constitution" and comply with the "new Bolivarian educational system," he said, referring to his socialist movement named after South American independence hero Simon Bolivar. Anticipating criticism, Chavez said the state's role in regulating education is internationally accepted and it is not possible for a school administrator to insist on autonomy in countries such as Germany or the United States either. Chavez also noted that previous Venezuelan educational systems carried their own ideology. Leafing through old grade school textbooks from the 1970s, he pointed out how they referred to Venezuela's "discovery" by Europeans. "They taught us to admire Christopher Columbus and Superman," Chavez said, adding that education based on capitalist ideology had destroyed "the values of children." Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. |
This is a great story! Exactly what got me interested in Venezuela in the first place!
You (and CNN) don't even know what's IN the text books yet you're criticising already!!!
I don't even think you know what's in the text books of these private schools do you?
What would you say if the government of Palestine introduced new text books that forbid anti-Semitism and if private schools did not comply they would be taken over by the government!?
I really think people need to just wait until they leap in head first with their preconstructed criticisms of Chavez until the actual facts are known (for all I know he might want to brainwash kids, or the education system in Venezuela might be absolutely shite and he wants to do something about it - none of us know)
You also need to bare in mind the absolute polarisation in Venezuela meaning the kids are already likely to be indoctinated by the opposition...
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| CNN: Just what the new curriculum will include and how it will be applied to all Venezuelan schools and universities remains unclear |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley You couldn't make it up could you?! |
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| The president's opponents accuse him of aiming to indoctrinate young Venezuelans with socialist ideology. But the education minister said the aim is to develop "critical thinking," not to impose a single way of thought. Just what the new curriculum will include and how it will be applied to all Venezuelan schools and universities remains unclear. "We want to create our own ideology collectively -- creative, diverse," the president said, adding that it would help develop values of "cooperation and solidarity." All schools will be bound to "subordinate themselves to the constitution" and comply with the "new Bolivarian educational system," he said, referring to his socialist movement named after South American independence hero Simon Bolivar. |
I actually like this Thread... I saw some asking for it to close.. but lets leave it open...
We can all post new updates about George's dream love and how said lover is causing; step by mother focking step, to turn Venezuela into a septic pool of a failed dictatorship.
Any one want to place odds??
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| Originally posted by LazFX [/b] |
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| Originally posted by LazFX I actually like this Thread... I saw some asking for it to close.. but lets leave it open... We can all post new updates about George's dream love and how said lover is causing; step by mother focking step, to turn Venezuela into a septic pool of a failed dictatorship. Any one want to place odds?? |
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents...ulum/DG_4016665
Just what exactly is the problem with the government of the day setting educational standards? Is this not done in America? (Would explain a few things!)
All that story says, cutting out the bullshit designed for the Americans, is that Chavez is introducing a national education cirriculum...just like any government the world over would.
The issue is over WHAT is in that cirriculum, not the fact Chavez is introducing one in the first place...
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| CNN: Just what the new curriculum will include and how it will be applied to all Venezuelan schools and universities remains unclear. |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley You dumbass!!! You posted a story about an event that hasn't happened, that even those writing the story itself admit they don't know anything about it!!! All because of the anti-Chavez media machine that takes EVERY SINGLE mention of Chavez in the news and twists it into the acts of a dictator!!! |
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| Originally posted by LazFX How is posting a Story about "what Chavez is saying or wants to do" being a dumb ass?? Oh I get it... you are one of those reactive type of personalities?? You know the one that thinks inside the box?? Until shit hits the fan and starts knocking down your box...then fuck it, Right?? Are you sure your are not American??? George Please.... and i rather be a dumb ass than ...... well..... you Ha! |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Laz - do governments the world over set their own educational standards that all schools, private or not, have to adhere to? (Yes or no will do) |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Do me a favour mate, sort ya quotes out!! |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Eh? Four TV stations (including RCTV) participated and helped plan the military overthrow of a democratically elected government - which part of that don't you understand? Or is that a perfectly reasonable course of action? |
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Do you even know what replaced RCTV on the channel 2 frequency? |
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Broadcast battles Jul 19th 2007 | CARACAS From The Economist print edition Rebirth of a television station JUST seven weeks after disappearing from Venezuelans' television screens when the government refused to renew its broadcasting licence, RCTV is back. But the station, whose opposition politics and “capitalist” programmes aroused the ire of Hugo Chávez, the country's leftist president, is now available only to the roughly two-fifths of households that have access to cable or satellite television. The station's reappearance, says the government, proves that international criticism of the curtailing of freedom of expression in Venezuela was a storm in a teacup. Officials say RCTV could have switched immediately to become a subscription channel, and that it went off the air only to make a political point. But RCTV counters that it had to rejig its business model to fit lower revenues. It is not clear how depriving most of the poor, who lack cable and satellite, of what was their favourite channel amounts to “democratisation of the air-waves”, as the government claims. TVes, the new state-run channel which now occupies RCTV's Channel 2 slot, has struggled to reach a tenth of its predecessor's rating. TVes is supposedly a public-service station. But it has swiftly scrapped the newscasts it had commissioned from an independent producer. They were of poor quality, but the reason given by Lil Rodríguez, the channel's director, was that: “The editorial line must be determined by the company.” Perhaps foreseeing increased take-up of cable and satellite, the information minister suggested that these channels may soon be obliged to carry the (frequent and interminable) speeches to the nation of Mr Chávez, which all free-to-air television and radio stations must broadcast. The RCTV affair has cost Mr Chávez some international goodwill, and has stirred up fresh opposition at home, notably from a new student movement now preparing to wage a separate battle in defence of university autonomy. Some opinion polls, such as one by Hinterlaces, suggest that Mr Chávez's popularity with Venezuelans has suffered over RCTV. Another equally reputable pollster, Félix Seijas, found that the president's approval rating remains steady at around 70%. The main potential beneficiary of RCTV's problems is Gustavo Cisneros, who owns its biggest commercial rival, Venevisión. Mr Cisneros, once an opposition supporter, has faced accusations that his channel's anodyne news output is the result of a deal with Mr Chávez. In an editorial broadcast on his own channel, he accused “certain government figures” of wanting only news that was favourable to the regime. But he also said that it was not the role of television to take sides in a political conflict. A fine sentiment, but one that seems unlikely to catch on in Mr Chávez's Venezuela. http://www.economist.com/world/la/d...tory_id=9517231 |
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Who said anything about journalists? I've said all along that the owners of the TV stations would be charged with treason in the US. You're the one inventing arguments up in your head, not me. Tell me what would happen to someone in America that helped organise and took part in a military overthrow of the democratically elected government? |
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Then post it again and tell me exactly what you want me to comment on because iirc I've replied twice to that post and have no intention of repeating myself if you're not going to tell me what you're on about |
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You implied that I would justify anything Chavez has done simply because he is Chavez. That's not true by a long shot. What I have done consistently through this thread is to look for the truth behind the media fabrications - media censorship, undemocratic elections, undemocratic rule, etc etc - pretty much everything Chavez has been accused of by corporate America has been lies. He won the election fair and square - fucking deal with it |
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Would any of you know where to point to Venezuela on a map if Chavez had not re-nationalised the oil industry? |
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| This is the source of all the accusations about Chavez, nobody would care about him had he not posed a direct threat to corporate America, and your culture is so twisted that you have been conditioned to equate freedom to economic freedom (when the truth is economic freedom equates to a total loss of freedom for the vast majority). The only FACT about Chavez is that he nationalised the oil industry - nothing wrong with that whatsoever - yet in your culture that equals dictatorship |
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| Originally posted by LazFX again, you are doing it again.... Yes, but here its more on the state level not the fed. and as far as private schools. No! my kids curriculum is in no way the same as public schools. but if I lived in Chavez Land, it would be or soon be all the same set in stone by him. |
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| Originally posted by occrider Done |
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| Wait., once again I’ll ask the same question I posed before … you originally said that they staged the coup. After I asked you to confirm that, you changed your answer to that they participated in the coup. Now are you saying that a free speech endorsement of the opposition equivocates to a complicit, planed military overthrow of the government? |
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| Venezuela's private television stations are owned by wealthy families with serious financial stakes in defeating Chávez. Venevisión, the most-watched network, is owned by Gustavo Cisneros, a mogul dubbed "the joint venture king" by the New York Post. The Cisneros Group has partnered with many top US brands--from AOL and Coca-Cola to Pizza Hut and Playboy--becoming a gatekeeper to the Latin American market... All this helps explain why, in the days leading up to the April coup, Venevisión, RCTV, Globovisión and Televen replaced regular programming with relentless anti-Chávez speeches, interrupted only for commercials calling on viewers to take to the streets: "Not one step backward. Out! Leave now!" The ads were sponsored by the oil industry, but the stations carried them free, as "public service announcements." They went further: On the night of the coup, Cisneros's station played host to meetings among the plotters, including Carmona. The president of Venezuela's broadcasting chamber co-signed the decree dissolving the elected National Assembly. And while the stations openly rejoiced at news of Chávez's "resignation," when pro-Chávez forces mobilized for his return a total news blackout was imposed. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20030303/klein |
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| There is no doubt, and no dispute, that RCTV and the three other largest corporate television stations (Globovision, Venevision, and Televen) aided and abetted the ensuing coup throughout the three day period it was being carried out. They knowingly broadcast false and manipulated information, including the lies that Bolivarian supporters instigated violence against demonstrators, and that Pres. Chavez, as a result, had willingly resigned and left the country. Pres. Chavez had not resigned. He had been kidnapped and was being held prisoner by traitors within the Venezuelan military. During all this, RCTV hosted coup plotters, including co-leader Carlos Ortega of the corrupt and US government supported labor union, the CTV, and had broadcast Ortega's appeal rallying demonstrators to march on the presidential palace. http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2416 |
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| Ohhh So Bush would only EXECUTE TV station owners not journalists! That completely SUBSTANTIATES your entire argument! My bad! |
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| 1999 - Chavez forces private radio and TV stations to broadcast his hours-long speeches, blocking regular programming with political announcements or political commentary. 2001 - Chavez warns media following reports of military corruption, telling news channel Globovision "I should remind you that I could revoke that concession at any moment." |
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| With political rivals either discredited as part of the old guard or unable to offer the majority poor a credible alternative to "El Comandante," the media had been the president's main opposition. But, dependent on the government for advertising revenue, major private stations have changed their editorial line to favor a president whose brief ouster they had openly supported in 2002. The lone hold-out was RCTV. The ex-colonel pulled the plug on the 53-year-old station by refusing to renew its concession license on the grounds it backed the putsch. Chavez, 52, granted other channels an extension but changed their contracts so that their licenses come up for renewal again a few months before he faces re-election in 2012. The one Venezuelan station that avoids self-censorship and remains staunchly opposed to Chavez is only seen in limited areas across the South American nation of Amazon jungle, Andean mountains and Caribbean coastline. Chavez, who rules by decree, has publicly warned the station he will close it if he deems it has gone too far. |
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| Huh? Trust me I can “deal with it”. Hehe besides from me having no idea what you’re talking about (but it is easy to lump all your opposition into one bucket isn’t eh?) to me you have justified everything Chavez has done because you haven’t related to any of us what EXACTLY it is that you have criticized??? Can you correct that preconceived notion? I asked you to provide examples and once again I was disappointed because you didn’t attempt to answer my question …. |
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| Yes. Please tell me this is not an argument you are legitimately trying to make? |
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| There’s nothing wrong with nationalizing the oil industry … if it’s done for the right reasons, namely the market externalities prevent efficient operations in the private sector. Be absolutely clear with me how Chavez’s actions are conducive to the Venezuelan economy??? |
More info on the role of the media in the 2002 coup...
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| In a country that had not seen assassinations, disappearances or political prisoners for three years, the crackdown targeted ministers, members of the national assembly and militants. Premises and homes were searched; 120 Chávez supporters were thrown into prison. At the end of his interview on Venevisión, Colonel Julio Rodriguez Salas smiled and said: "We have a major weapon … the media. Let me congratulate you." In the name of democracy, "civil society" had set up a dictatorship. It would be up to the people to restore democracy. |
This guy's no egomaniac at all! He's just cuckoo. I'm sure George will now proclaim the wonders of waking up 30 minutes earlier and the great favor Hugo is doing for the kids as he cannot seem to read below the surface.
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| Call me cuckoo: It's Chavez time in Venezuela Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:09pm EDT By Saul Hudson CARACAS (Reuters) - President Hugo Chavez wants Venezuelan clocks turned back half an hour and he wants it done in record time -- next Monday. "I don't care if they call me crazy, the new time will go ahead, let them call me whatever they want," Chavez said on his weekly TV show. "I'm not to blame. I received a recommendation and said I liked the idea." The shift will allow children to wake up for school in daylight instead of before sunrise, Chavez said. That may seem reasonable to many Venezuelans but ordering the change with little notice and scant public education has raised questions over how much thought was given to the plan. It also highlights how the anti-U.S. president's governing style can sometimes be eccentric, improvised and rushed in his self-styled revolution to turn one of the world's biggest oil exporters into a socialist state. Chavez himself has not had time to get to grips with the practicalities of the clock shift. In his live show, he called on his brother, the education minister, so that the two men could explain the measure. But they mistakenly told Venezuelans to move their clocks forward at midnight on Sunday, when the policy is to move them back. Chavez dismissed criticism that moving the time only a half hour was quirky, questioning why the world had to follow a scheme of hourly divisions that he said was dictated by the imperial United States. The change will put Venezuela on its own time zone, shared by no other country. Several countries have adopted times that put them half an hour ahead or behind neighbors, and Nepal's official time is just 15 minutes ahead of that of India. Venezuelan businesses are now scrambling to call in technicians to reprogram their computers for the time change. Most countries advertise in the media any planned changes in clock times for months before the implementation date. But Chavez's government has only aired slots promoting the idea in principle without educating people on how to do it. "I'd like them to explain it to me so that I can understand what the new time is. I don't get it at all," said Esperanza Alcala, a 46-year-old office cleaning worker. TIME FOR CHANGE Since first announcing last month that Venezuela would shift from four hours behind Greenwich Mean Time to four and a half hours, Chavez, his brother and other senior officials have given varying dates for the change. This week, Chavez plumped for Monday, but his science and technology minister then said coordination with international organization might postpone the move until January. Venezuelans could be forgiven for not taking the government at its word. In a year of change when Chavez is overhauling the constitution and nationalizing swathes of the economy, some other attention-grabbing proposals have come to nothing. Most notably, Chavez announced that Venezuela was immediately withdrawing from the International Monetary Fund. Venezuela's debt then plunged and four months later the country remains an IMF member. Still, for Chavez, the clock move is simpler than people think. It is a one-off change and he notes that Venezuela does not follow many other countries in regularly moving clocks an hour forward for summer and back for winter. "It's something that's done around the world each year and several times a year and here we are just doing it once in a century." |
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| Originally posted by Shakka This guy's no egomaniac at all! He's just cuckoo. I'm sure George will now proclaim the wonders of waking up 30 minutes earlier and the great favor Hugo is doing for the kids as he cannot seem to read below the surface. |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley We've already done this story I notice you like to post a lot of articles up without offering your own opinions on them... |
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| Care to tell me why this is a bad idea? |
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| Venezuelan businesses are now scrambling to call in technicians to reprogram their computers for the time change. |
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