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-- The NO on Prop 8 thread....
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Originally posted by gehzumteufel No it was created for protection of both. So that the state doesn't intervene in religious proceedings that it shouldn't, and that the religious don't intervene in state proceedings when they shouldn't. This was to create EQUAL PROTECTION FOR ALL.

So your saying to you want the state to intervene into my beliefs by redefining marriage?

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Originally posted by system-7 that was my answer, but you present two absolutes yes or no. also, separation of church and state was setup to protect the church from the state, not the other way around. Isn't this why the pilgrims then colonist settled in new england?

at the end of the day, your jesus/bible views should not be pushed onto me. keeping marriage between two loving committed people does not at all affect you.

in the eyes of the law, my loving committed family should be no different than yours. in the eyes of the church, i dont give a fvck, you can keep your church..

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Originally posted by system-7 So your saying to you want the state to intervene into my beliefs by redefining marriage?

youre right. your beliefs are your beliefs.

this has no affect on you at all. aside from feelings, how does prior election day and after election day affected you directly? it prob doesnt. [edit - election day only in regards to prop 8]

but to me, it did.

and that is not fair.

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Originally posted by system-7 So your saying to you want the state to intervene into my beliefs by redefining marriage?

Your own definition of marriage will not change. You will still believe that it is between a man and a woman. How will that change?

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Originally posted by pnutttty fvck, you can keep your church..

Amen!

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Originally posted by pnutttty at the end of the day, your jesus/bible views should not be pushed onto me. keeping marriage between two loving committed people does not at all affect you. in the eyes of the law, my loving committed family should be no different than yours. in the eyes of the church, i dont give a fvck, you can keep your church..

thats fine, this belief didn't start by forcing people into it, also, check the book of Leviticus, alot of laws that are written there were mirrored into our law system. Which is the same law that allows us to have a voice, at times.

This thread always picks up a notch when System chimes in. I don't really want waist my time arguing with him. It's just not going to go anywhere. But you are the kind of person I was looking for to respond to my earlier post. Here it is:


I've been wanting to pose this question to the Yes people at some point. My girlfriend and I don't believe in god. We will not be married in a church or by a religious figure. We have not decided if we want to have children for sure. So, is that marriage? It certainly isn't "traditional marriage."
One of the ironies of all this is now we all have to sit back think about what marriage is. Actually question how we feel about marriage and what it means, what it is. How is that "protecting marriage? Over 4 months ago gay couple got the ok to get married. Did it change anything? Did it effect anyone other than the couples whom were able to elope. Did society as we kn ow it colapse?! Did 75% of the people in this state even know? No! But since this prop was brought up, all hell is breaking loose and it will only get worse. Oh...and by the way...because what the yes on prop people turned this into, it will for sure be taught in school. It is now a historic event that will be history books. Plus, what child has not asked they're parents about gay marriage now? Were they asking 4 months ago or being taught it in school?
Oh...I love irony

i love my wife and we're married for 7 years and have been together for 12 years. though i don't see what's so special about this f'n contract which really doesn't mean anything except forbidding me to bang another woman.

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Originally posted by gerard6975 i love my wife and we're married for 7 years and have been together for 12 years. though i don't see what's so special about this f'n contract which really doesn't mean anything except forbidding me to bang another woman.

You old romantic

Because people BELIEVE it is WRONG.
Other people BELIEVE it is "RIGHT" or They don't care/does not affect them.

This will never end if we have to base this decision on morality...
EVER.

Personally; I beleive Religion is lame, and their antiquated ideas should be put out to pasture. I grew up Catholic, get over yourselves.

My parents have been married for 40 years.

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Originally posted by gerard6975 i love my wife and we're married for 7 years and have been together for 12 years. though i don't see what's so special about this f'n contract which really doesn't mean anything except forbidding me to bang another woman.

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Originally posted by DJ Reese My girlfriend and I don't believe in god. We will not be married in a church or by a religious figure. We have not decided if we want to have children for sure. So, is that marriage? It certainly isn't "traditional marriage."

That is an excellent point. The overwhelming majority of Yes on 8 people want to keep marriage 'traditional'. The problem is we no longer live in traditional times. We live in modern times. We are a global society. We are free thinkers and innovators. Most importantly, we have basic freedoms.

If marriage is so sacred and traditional, why are we allowed to divorce, and why is our divorce rate so high? What kind of impact does divorce have for children? Sounds like we should ban divorce next. It's not sacred and religiously traditional!

We might as well bring back slavery too...you know, to keep our country in a 'traditional' state.

Welcome to 200 years ago.

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Originally posted by skizzell That is an excellent point. The overwhelming majority of Yes on 8 people want to keep marriage 'traditional'. The problem is we no longer live in traditional times. We live in modern times. We are a global society. We are free thinkers and innovators. Most importantly, we have basic freedoms. If marriage is so sacred and traditional, why are we allowed to divorce, and why is our divorce rate so high? What kind of impact does divorce have for children? Sounds like we should ban divorce next. It's not sacred and religiously traditional! We might as well bring back slavery too...you know, to keep our country in a 'traditional' state. Welcome to 200 years ago.

What would be interesting to me would be to look at the the divorce rate of people whom got married in the last 4 months (since gay couples have been able to get married), gay and straight over the next 5 to 10 years. I'm willing to bet the pecentage would significantly lower for gay couples. Now who's kids do you think will be more screwed up? The ones with gay parents or divoced parents?
I could go on and on with these kind of questions and points.

Let's wait to see system's response to the discussion we had over in the c0r about this that I posted here. He has yet to respond directly to it and I am awaiting his response.

System, also:

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Mark 12: 28-34 28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these." 32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel Let's wait to see system's response to the discussion we had over in the c0r about this that I posted here. He has yet to respond directly to it and I am awaiting his response. System, also:

What's your ? on this passage?

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Originally posted by system-7 What's your ? on this passage?

What is your response about to it? Do you get what he is saying, that how it was not really what everyone makes it out to be in the Christian faith? Or do you just brush it off as useless rhetoric? He proved my earlier claim that you are sinning by doing as you do to gays.

Mind you, this guy is a devout Christian.

This passage is a recap of the old testament law, aka 10 commandments.

you might ask, how is that? the 10 commandments covers two types sins that are:

1. Toward God, in which we should:

"30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and wth all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength."

2. Toward your neighbor

"31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself."

The reason that loving the Lord 1st is the greatest commandment is because in accomplishing this, we can go onto fullfilling the second: loving your neighbor as yourself

(sometimes I wanna kill my neighbor, especially when they like to party til 5am while my daughter tries to sleep)

but now lets go into detail about the 10 commandments and how they relate to loving God and loving thy neighbor. continued...

quote:

Originally posted by system-7 So your saying to you want the state to intervene into my beliefs by redefining marriage?

No the state shouldn't intervene to redfine marriage between man and women, because if you allowed gay marriage, you wouldn't not be changing anything to do with marriage, just allowing other another group to do it. It does not affect heterosexual marriage in any shape or form.

The constitution was also founded mainly on common sense (in both meanings ) and the need to separate religion from law, church from state. Marriage is for many people a non-religious act and more of a legal matter, therefore gay marriage should be a matter of law and has nothing to do with religion.

There is a severe double standard going here - If you are so moralistic or even religious about marriage, then why do you not have the exact same feelings (i.e. it's plain wrong and won't accept it in this day and age etc.) about divorce?

The only reason YOU can divorce today is that 400 years ago a certain king wanted more than one wife in his lifetime. No other reason. There was uproar and even a war over it. but over time people accepted and all the other religions and countries allowed it too.

So there might be a bit of resistance about gay marriage as the older more religious generations try to protect their crumbling way of life and tradition, but it's happening and it's only right.

If you're allowed to divorce, then gays should marry, because religion is the only thing stopping you from accepting it, once you realize that it does not affect you own marriage.

P.S. you clearly not at ease (from the way write) and show a measure of disrespect towards gay people - you refer to them as "your types".

Try referring to another group of people as "your types"....say a group of black people for instance.....you'll get knocked the fuck out pretty darn quick.

I don't seem to get all butthurt when people say "f your church".

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN No the state shouldn't intervene to redfine marriage between man and women, because if you allowed gay marriage, you wouldn't not be changing anything to do with marriage, just allowing other another group to do it. It does not affect heterosexual marriage in any shape or form. The constitution was also founded mainly on common sense (in both meanings ) and the need to separate religion from law, church from state. Marriage is for many people a non-religious act and more of a legal matter, therefore gay marriage should be a matter of law and has nothing to do with religion. There is a severe double standard going here - If you are so moralistic or even religious about marriage, then why do you not have the exact same feelings (i.e. it's plain wrong and won't accept it in this day and age etc.) about divorce? The only reason YOU can divorce today is that 400 years ago a certain king wanted more than one wife in his lifetime. No other reason. There was uproar and even a war over it. but over time people accepted and all the other religions and countries allowed it too. So there might be a bit of resistance about gay marriage as the older more religious generations try to protect their crumbling way of life and tradition, but it's happening and it's only right. If you're allowed to divorce, then gays should marry, because religion is the only thing stopping you from accepting it, once you realize that it does not affect you own marriage. P.S. you clearly not at ease (from the way write) and show a measure of disrespect towards gay people - you refer to them as "your types". Try referring to another group of people as "your types"....say a group of black people for instance.....you'll get knocked the fuck out pretty darn quick.

quote:

Originally posted by system-7 This passage is a recap of the old testament law, aka 10 commandments. you might ask, how is that? the 10 commandments covers two types sins that are: 1. Toward God, in which we should: "30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and wth all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." 2. Toward your neighbor "31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself." The reason that loving the Lord 1st is the greatest commandment is because in accomplishing this, we can go onto fullfilling the second: loving your neighbor as yourself (sometimes I wanna kill my neighbor, especially when they like to party til 5am while my daughter tries to sleep) but now lets go into detail about the 10 commandments and how they relate to loving God and loving thy neighbor. continued...

Dude, you keep quoting scripture about this, but why are you quoting a book that was written from multi-generational whispers 300 years after the fact?

This bit is important - I don't have to respect your religion - at all - I just accept that it's there and don't disrespect it.

You need to do the same. The 10 commandments have nothing to do with US law, so there's no need to have this argument. It's a matter of society law, not religious scripture.

quote:

Originally posted by system-7 I don't seem to get all butthurt when people say "f your church".

What is this statement referring to?

Also, which book was written in 800bc?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJ RANN
Dude, you keep quoting scripture about this, but why are you quoting a book that was written from multi-generational whispers 300 years after the fact?

This bit is important - I don't have to respect your religion - at all - I just accept that it's there and don't disrespect it.

You need to do the same. The 10 commandments have nothing to do with US law, so there's no need to have this argument. It's a matter of society law, not religious scripture. [/QUO

I dare you to read Levitcus and go through law school, and deny that our US law don't mirrors that book.

quote:

Originally posted by system-7 This passage is a recap of the old testament law, aka 10 commandments. you might ask, how is that? the 10 commandments covers two types sins that are: 1. Toward God, in which we should: "30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and wth all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." 2. Toward your neighbor "31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself." The reason that loving the Lord 1st is the greatest commandment is because in accomplishing this, we can go onto fullfilling the second: loving your neighbor as yourself (sometimes I wanna kill my neighbor, especially when they like to party til 5am while my daughter tries to sleep) but now lets go into detail about the 10 commandments and how they relate to loving God and loving thy neighbor. continued...

So then in your own words, you are sinning as you are not loving gay people as yourself. Allowing them to marry, fuck each other in the ass, adopt kids, be foster parents, etc. So therefore, you have called yourself a hypocrite also.

quote:

Originally posted by system-7 I dare you to read Levitcus and go through law school, and deny that our US law don't mirrors that book.

While you can draw parallels between the two, that is for the reason being that we have laws like no murder for a reason. It impedes upon someones right to pursue happiness.

Why is religion even being brought up in this debate in the first place? It was my understanding that religion and government shouldn't be mixing together at all. Separation of church & state and all that.

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