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Originally posted by DigiNut Oh goody, I love the analogy game. Let's try a new one: After searching for a couple of months in peak season, you and a few of your good buddies finally find a decent apartment in downtown Toronto for rent. You sign the lease and move in. It's in OK condition but you have to get a lot of repairs done. Other than that, everything is super for about a month. Then the next day there's a couple of guys waiting at your door; they say they had some friends that were supposed to be moving in but had to wait until their old lease was up and that you're going to have to leave. You say hey, sorry guys, but this is the first I've heard of it, and you should've said something to me before I signed the lease, and we kind of like this place, and besides, I really don't think it's up to you guys because you don't own the building. A couple of hours later you're just getting back from your grocery shopping and there's an angry mob at your door. Not realizing that two of your buddies are 3rd-degree black belts, they start a fight and subsequently get their asses whipped. You all tell the landlord what happened and he evicts them. You have some other friends that are now in the market so you tell them about the vacant apartment. They move in, everybody's happy. Except it turns out that the old gang moved in on the floor below you and started telling everybody how you whipped their asses and forced them out, so a few weeks later an even bigger mob shows up with knives, but you aren't stupid, you saw this coming and started stocking up on baseball bats a week ago, and you call your friends from down the hall to help out and together you once again whip their asses and have them thrown out. Couple of days later you're talking to some more distant friends, acquaintances really, but you tell them what happened and they say hey, we actually just started looking for a place with some of our friends but we want to stay together, and you say that's great because they actually just evicted two tenants and you can both move in. After a few more rounds of this, it's hard to remember anymore how it started, but everybody's in pretty rough shape physically and psychologically, so a bunch of you decide to go for drinks, talk things over. Everyone agrees firstmost that the feud has got to stop, but the devil's in the details. At the end they say look, we don't care anymore, our friends already found a different apartment, sorry for all the shit we caused and could we just get our original apartment back? And you say look, that's a very reasonable request but our close friends have been living there for like 8 months, and sure, you were there first, but they're there now and we can't just tell them to leave, and even if we did, it's not up to us, it's their decision. Dude says fine then, fuck you, if we can't even have OUR pad back then we'll just make YOUR life hell until you move out, and leaves in a huff. End of negotiation. Then one of your distant friends three floors down who moved in just a month ago says, screw this, I don't want to live here anymore getting harassed, I'm taking off. So you meet up again with Mr. Asshole and say hey, one of our posse just moved out, so as a sign of good faith we've told the landlord that he should give it back to the guy who was there before if he still wants it, and so maybe as a sign of good faith you and your posse could tone it down just a little. And he says that's great, now we're getting somewhere, but unfortunately that isn't _MY_ apartment and I'm still living in the 3B coat closet with Halitosis Hal, so I'll do what I can but I barely know half of these people and I'm still pretty f*ckin' pissed off myself. And for a while things do settle down, but it's not long before everybody's forgotten about what just happened and the gang wars start again, and of course the guy you convinced the landlord to let back in is in on it too. So at that point you say, well this is bullshit, we throw these douchebags a bone and immediately they try to get us out on the street again. Fuck them, we're not doing any more favours. And so on, and so forth, the saga continues. Yes, this is an absurd analogy. Yes, it's completely one-sided. But it's more accurate than yours for at least three reasons: 1. It acknowledges the 3rd-party ownership of the original property; 2. It identifies the reason for the "occupation". 3. It reveals an actual escalation of hostilities as opposed to a mysterious land grab. In the future, let's try not to oversimplify so much.

I thank the fucking universe every 4th day that you are posting again aaron! LOL!

HAHAHAHAHAHA Loves it!

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Originally posted by DigiNut Oh goody, I love the analogy game. Let's try a new one:

The analogy is okay, there is only issue that I see.

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and besides, I really don't think it's up to you guys because you don't own the building.

It's hard use ownership in this case. Like, if the appartment was built by the owner on land purchased from the state. Then the land used to be owned by the state. The state took the land from the indeginous people (natives). Some would say the land should be owned by the natives. Now, I'm not saying that the muslim arabs are indeginous to israel, lebanon, west bank and gaza, but all I'm saying is that these people don't recognize israel's ownership (historic or legal) of the land. It really depends on how far in history you want to look back, and how you define ownership.

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Originally posted by Dr. Z It's hard use ownership in this case. Like, if the appartment was built by the owner on land purchased from the state. Then the land used to be owned by the state. The state took the land from the indeginous people (natives). Some would say the land should be owned by the natives. Now, I'm not saying that the muslim arabs are indeginous to israel, lebanon, west bank and gaza, but all I'm saying is that these people don't recognize israel's ownership (historic or legal) of the land. It really depends on how far in history you want to look back, and how you define ownership.

That's just another thing. What criteria do you look at for historical/cultural claims? So complex.

Unless both parties agree to some sort of arbitration (which has been done before), the only way land disputes got solved was whoever owned the land at present time. (might = right?)

First of all, it wasn't supposed to be an airtight analogy, it was merely a challenge to the other weak analogies posted here and was clearly tongue-in-cheek. But if you want to be technical about it, then it's irrelevant whether or not one party "recognizes" ownership by some other party. In civilized society, ownership is determined and enforced by a central authority with proof of ownership - in the case of my analogy, the government recognizing a deed to the property, and where matters of territorial borders and sovereignty are concerned, that would be the U.N. AKA "international law."

That's the theory, anyway. In practice, the "soft power" of international law won't actually prevent the annexation of some property, so nation-states are responsible for protecting their own borders and disputes are settled by threat of military force or in some cases war. It's not pretty, but that's how it works, and that's how it will continue to work until we have some sort of world government (and the U.N. is a long, long way from that ideal).

Whether you put your faith in military might or overburdened bureaucracy makes little difference in this case, because they both recognize Israel's right to exist as well as its present borders.

Aside: Thanks for the affirmations everyone, although I was really just having some fun.

you wanna see propoganda?

Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West

(dont worry, these parts aren't very long each, and these are Muslims speaking out)

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

Part 7

Part 8

Part 9

Part 10

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Originally posted by Special K the isrealis are really good at what they do and ethnic cleansing is what they do

lol, whatever. so f'in clueless & false.

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Originally posted by DigiNut First of all, it wasn't supposed to be an airtight analogy, it was merely a challenge to the other weak analogies posted here and was clearly tongue-in-cheek

Didn't expect to get an essay out of it .... sometimes we have to be unbiased and it's not an easy thing, I'm not anti anyone, just stating in MY opinion why the things are the way they are.

I noticed that the network news coverage of this situation is a lot less pro-Israel than it has been in the past. I can only hope that this signals a much needed change in American foreign policy.

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Originally posted by tatgirl lol, whatever. so f'in clueless & false.

why do you say that..because YOU don't believe it to be true? or can't conceive of it..?

not good

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm

quote:

exerpt Strike at Gaza school 'kills 30' At least 30 people were killed and 55 injured when Israeli artillery shells landed outside a United Nations-run school in Gaza, UN officials have said. A number of children were among those who died when the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp was hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said. Israel said its soldiers had come under fire from militants inside the school.

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Israel said its soldiers had come under fire from militants inside the school.

Militants were hiding in a UN-run school?

Edit: Also, since the Israeli solders were under fire from the school the most logical choice was to order an air strike to take out the whole school? Seems like civilians are an afterthought for the Israelis if it means killing a couple militants.

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH Militants were hiding in a UN-run school? Edit: Also, since the Israeli solders were under fire from the school the most logical choice was to order an air strike to take out the whole school? Seems like civilians are an afterthought for the Israelis if it means killing a couple militants.

it's one of those damn if you do, damn if you dont scenario

what can you do when your enemy hides among the civillians? esp when they dont wear an uniform? its a dirty war

collateral damage is an ugly term

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Originally posted by Yohan what can you do when your enemy hides among the civillians?

Bomb the fucking hell out of them and pretend you care. Duh

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH Militants were hiding in a UN-run school? Edit: Also, since the Israeli solders were under fire from the school the most logical choice was to order an air strike to take out the whole school? Seems like civilians are an afterthought for the Israelis if it means killing a couple militants.

It's been done before, don't be surprised.

To address your edit, if you were running a country, would you choose to take a route that ensures your soldiers don't get hurt or would you choose one which is rather high risk? If they're hiding INSIDE the school, the only way to really get rid of them is to break in - you're adding a huge risk for casualties on the Israeli side (and potentially kidnappings which Hamas loves to do).

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Originally posted by Shade It's been done before, don't be surprised. To address your edit, if you were running a country, would you choose to take a route that ensures your soldiers don't get hurt or would you choose one which is rather high risk? If they're hiding INSIDE the school, the only way to really get rid of them is to break in - you're adding a huge risk for casualties on the Israeli side (and potentially kidnappings which Hamas loves to do).

fine but you still don't go and bomb them ... end of story

seriously fucked up shit
poor people can't even flee the territory, all border crossing are blocked, no food, nowhere to run..

This is progressing into a chaotic discussion. We have diginut denying any information which supports the Palestinian cause being the ignorant racist asshole he or she is... Come on? You're attacking those who you assume are denying Israel's existance, yet you deny a Palestinian entity altogether... If Palestine didn't exist before the British rule.. then why did my great grandfather and his forefathers call their homeland Palestine? And occupation isn;t the main root of the conflict? WOW Once again you've proven yourself as the epitome of ignorance.. I believe you should realise this about yourself, or stop insulting Palestinians such as myself with your strongly biased remarks and childish analoglies.

We've got Abercrombie expressing his or her vandetta against Anas by labelling any video or information posted as pro-Palestinian propoganda. Abercrombie, you have posted some valid points I think it's time for you to stop busting balls, and continue providing valid arguments. All Anas is doing is showing the Palestinian perspective.. which more and more people are coming to appreciate as the truth.. 60 years of occupation and people are finally starting to take a stance with the Palestinians who have been suffering under Israeli occupation.. Maybe some people are just afraid of the truth? Maybe the truth hurts what you've been brought up on your whole life?

At the same time I can't blame some for arguing from a perspective which supports Zionism.. If you grew up your whole life learning from institutions with interests parallel to that of Zionism (e.g. history textbooks in most North American schools), and you never took the initiative to learn the other side of the argument.. then it's inevitable that you'll continue living your life blind to what really goes on... and that's very sad to see..

I'm glad people are starting to see what really goes on.. but people still have a long way until they understand the essence of the situation..I'm confident that with time, as people become more open-mided and better educated, they'll begin to understand the true colors of this conflict.

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Originally posted by Shade It's been done before, don't be surprised. To address your edit, if you were running a country, would you choose to take a route that ensures your soldiers don't get hurt or would you choose one which is rather high risk? If they're hiding INSIDE the school, the only way to really get rid of them is to break in - you're adding a huge risk for casualties on the Israeli side (and potentially kidnappings which Hamas loves to do).

i wouldnt worry about any soldiers being captured by hamas, unless israelis are really retarded. standard doctrine for any sort of urban ops involving taking over a house is to surround it (so nobody goes in and out) and then send in the infantry.

problem is that it's really manpower intensive, and more chances of casualties on friendly side, esp if you're trying to limit civillian casualties.

just to put it into perspective, your avg two story house takes min a platoon (30 guys or so) for going into the house, plus another platoon for ourside security

quote:

Originally posted by jad

ah yes.

the my side has the truth statements

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Originally posted by Yohan i wouldnt worry about any soldiers being captured by hamas, unless israelis are really retarded. standard doctrine for any sort of urban ops involving taking over a house is to surround it (so nobody goes in and out) and then send in the infantry. problem is that it's really manpower intensive, and more chances of casualties on friendly side, esp if you're trying to limit civillian casualties. just to put it into perspective, your avg two story house takes min a platoon (30 guys or so) for going into the house, plus another platoon for ourside security

Fair enough.

@djeso

What would you propose as a solution in a situation like that? (This isn't me attacking, I'm really asking you a genuine question)

- 60 years of illegal occupation and oppression... forcefully taking away land from Palestinians (with the cost of countless deaths, destroyed homes, and millions of displaced Palestinian refugees) in order to allow Jewish immigrants to live comfortably. Yes the Jews suffered in the Holocaust, but Palestinians should not suffer as a consequence.
- Limited electricity which progressed into no electricity.
- Extremely limited food supplies.
- Limited medicine.
- Horrible medical care.. overcrowded hospitals have been running on emergency generators, which could fail to operate at any moment, meaning those on life support or in intensive care could die at any moment. Any new victims of the massacre can't even be admitted into medical care.
- A crippled economy, in which imports and exports are controlled and limited under Israeli authority.
- 1.5 million fucking people in 360km squared!!! Think of the standard of living Gazans live in on a day to day basis. A huge amount of Gazans have never left this small strip of land, and many will never leave it.

Do these seem like living conditions that wouldn't piss you off just a little bit? Imagine living like this and think of how angry it would make you. This is the trap Israelis have Palestinians in. They feed off of our anger and retaliation, and use our defense as an excuse for further expansion of the Zionist sate.

Are Israeli lives more valuable than Palestinian lives? 500+ Palestinian deaths can be justified with 4 Israeli deaths?? Come on people!! Can you even compare the Palestinians' suffering to that of the Israelis?

People open up your eyes.. Israel wants to expand their land for more settlements at the cost of Palestinian lives, as they have been doing for the past 60 years.

Take this as an example... why would you never see Palestinians protesting along with the Israelis.. yet there are many Jews who protest along with the Palestinians?

Learn people! Educate yourselves... your local or national media is not the absolute truth. Read books.. talk to those who have been affected by this.. CNN (or any similar media outlet) is not the answer.

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Originally posted by jad - 60 years of illegal occupation and oppression... forcefully taking away land from Palestinians (with the cost of countless deaths, destroyed homes, and millions of displaced Palestinian refugees) in order to allow Jewish immigrants to live comfortably. Yes the Jews suffered in the Holocaust, but Palestinians should not suffer as a consequence. - Limited electricity which progressed into no electricity. - Extremely limited food supplies. - Limited medicine. - Horrible medical care.. overcrowded hospitals have been running on emergency generators, which could fail to operate at any moment, meaning those on life support or in intensive care could die at any moment. Any new victims of the massacre can't even be admitted into medical care. - A crippled economy, in which imports and exports are controlled and limited under Israeli authority. - 1.5 million fucking people in 360km squared!!! Think of the standard of living Gazans live in on a day to day basis. A huge amount of Gazans have never left this small strip of land, and many will never leave it. Do these seem like living conditions that wouldn't piss you off just a little bit? Imagine living like this and think of how angry it would make you. This is the trap Israelis have Palestinians in. They feed off of our anger and retaliation, and use our defense as an excuse for further expansion of the Zionist sate.

still does not excuse terrorism from Hamas or any terrorist groups on the behalf of palestinian people

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Are Israeli lives more valuable than Palestinian lives? 500+ Palestinian deaths can be justified with 4 Israeli deaths?? Come on people!! Can you even compare the Palestinians' suffering to that of the Israelis?

to play a bit of devil's advocate, if my family is being attacked, i wouldnt care how many of others die in order to protect my own family

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People open up your eyes.. Israel wants to expand their land for more settlements at the cost of Palestinian lives, as they have been doing for the past 60 years.

more bits of devil's advocate. it pays to be a winner. sucks to be on the losing side

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Take this as an example... why would you never see Palestinians protesting along with the Israelis.. yet there are many Jews who protest along with the Palestinians?

more devil's advocate. there are israeli neo nazis. a bit of nutjobs in every group

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Learn people! Educate yourselves... your local or national media is not the absolute truth. Read books.. talk to those who have been affected by this.. CNN (or any similar media outlet) is not the answer.

stop portraying your own views as absolute truths.
facts yes. let people judge for themselves what is truth or not.
but insisting that your own view is the absolute truth merely annoys people (hence why I'm being a bit of dick in this post)

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Originally posted by DigiNut Perhaps what he meant to say was that there was never an ethnic or religious group or race called the "Palestinians" prior to the current state of Israel being formed. There was a general region called Palestine, but it was occupied by many different groups at many different times. The "Palestinian", however, is a new invention. Before World War II, the geographical area that is presently Palestine was very sparsely populated and had virtually no agriculture or production at all. Simply put, it was barren before the Israeli settlers fixed it up, and no natives complained when they started to develop the land. In addition, most Palestinians today are actually not historical natives, they are refugees from neighbouring Arab countries like Jordan (who systematically slaughtered them in order to push them into Israeli territory). There's been an area called Palestine for a while but not a state or nation. It was a generic name, like the "Middle East", and didn't refer to any specific commune or governing authority. As far as we know from recorded history, that area has just been scattered tribal villages or mere swamp hutches, which is exactly why the U.N. thought it would be a swell spot for Israel. Even the religious history, the Qu'ran, doesn't specifically mention a Palestinian people or state (to my knowledge, anyway). There may or may not have been one or more states of Israel on that land; it doesn't really matter. Either way, today's Palestinians have no more historical claim to the land than Israelis do. If you have it in your mind to ask for proof, then I'm sorry to say that the burden of proof is on you, because it is a logical impossibility to prove the non-existence of a thing. If you truly believe that Palestinians all belong to some ancient close-knit civilization then explain where you know this from. It's all beside the point anyway because this isn't a land claim, it's holy war. Unfortunately, Israel and most of the western world has a hard time understanding holy war, so they prefer to treat it as a land claim. That mentality may be convenient but it will never end the war.

You are wrong and misinforming everyone with your zionist propaganda.

Palestinians were always there. They are not a people who just "popped" up there after Israel was formed. How can Palestinians not be a people when their villages (over 500 of them that were cleasnsed after Israel was formed) have existed for hundreds of years?

Palestinians have accents, stories, heritage, lineage and history. They have a distinct culture. THey are Indigenous to that land. All arabs in that region were called "arabs" by europeans.

Within the arab world during the formation of Israel and even before the formation, Palestinians were known as PHILISTINES. Just becuase you europeans couldnt tell the difference doesnt mean they didnt exist as a people

Nevertheless, Palestine was NOT barren..

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According to Ottoman statistics studied by Justin McCarthy,[166] the population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000, in 1860 it was 411,000 and in 1900 about 600,000 of which 94% were Arabs. In 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews.[167] According to Howard Sachar, the Arab population of Palestine was about 260,000 in 1882. This number had doubled by 1914 and reached 600,000 by 1920 and 840,000 by 1931. Thus, between 1922 and 1946 the Arab population of Palestine increased by 118 percent, the highest rate of population growth among all Arab lands except Egypt.[168] McCarthy estimates the non-Jewish population of Palestine at 452,789 in 1882, 737,389 in 1914, 725,507 in 1922, 880,746 in 1931 and 1,339,763 in 1946.[169]

Read Ilan Pappe's book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine". Hes a brave israeli professor who goes into detail about all the massacres of villages during the zionist campaign to cleanse palestine of its native population.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King You are wrong and misinforming everyone with your zionist propaganda. Palestinians were always there. They are not a people who just "popped" up there after Israel was formed. How can Palestinians not be a people when their villages (over 500 of them that were cleasnsed after Israel was formed) have existed for hundreds of years? Palestinians have accents, stories, heritage, lineage and history. They have a distinct culture. THey are Indigenous to that land. All arabs in that region were called "arabs" by europeans. Within the arab world during the formation of Israel and even before the formation, Palestinians were known as PHILISTINES. Just becuase you europeans couldnt tell the difference doesnt mean they didnt exist as a people Nevertheless, Palestine was NOT barren.. [/i] Read Ilan Pappe's book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine". Hes a brave israeli professor who goes into detail about all the massacres of villages during the zionist campaign to cleanse palestine of its native population.

and the jews owned that land for many years too. so who has the rightful claim?
history seems to say whoever has the military might to enforce their claim

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Originally posted by Yohan and the jews owned that land for many years too. so who has the rightful claim? history seems to say whoever has the military might to enforce their claim

And the Canaanites and Jebusites and the persians and the Turks.. and the greeks and the Romans..

Should they also have a right to take it from the Indigenous population?

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