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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby But to claim something exists with out any proof is fucking foolish. We didn't claim relativity existed before we could prove it existed, we said it might exist, its factual existence came about from discovery and research and verifiable, repeatable data. You could say god MIGHT exist, but there is no way to prove it, at all. Give me a way to prove that a god or higher power exists. Try it. You can't.

I wasn't claiming that god exists or that there was any way to prove it. I agree that having faith in something that cannot be explained scientifically can seem foolish, but to dismiss anyone who believes in it as being fools is a bit strong. They may end up being right afterall.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 I wasn't claiming that god exists or that there was any way to prove it. I agree that having faith in something that cannot be explained scientifically can seem foolish, but to dismiss anyone who believes in it as being fools is a bit strong. They may end up being right afterall.

So we should accept anyones view point because they might be right? Even when that view point interferes with human progress?

Fuck that. If they are right then who cares, there is nothing we can do anyways in that case. But they are not right, so fuck them and their ideas, lets focus on the highest power out there, you and me and everyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby So we should accept anyones view point because they might be right? Even when that view point interferes with human progress? Fuck that. If they are right then who cares, there is nothing we can do anyways in that case. But they are not right, so fuck them and their ideas, lets focus on the highest power out there, you and me and everyone else.

No, we shouldn't accept their beliefs, but you should still let them have them. You can explain your stance on the issue, but if they still don't believe it, then that's their choice. There's no sense in trying to force it down their throat or call them an idiot for not believing. Whatever helps them get through their lives.

Saying "they are not right" is also false, because although there have been alternate theories as to how the universe was created, evolution, etc. there hasn't been anything in the history of science that has unequivocally disproven the existence of god, or a god, or many gods.

I do agree with you in the belief that god doesn't exist, but I'm also open to the idea that I could possibly be wrong.

I am currently reading and almost finished this: http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great...g/dp/0446579807


Pretty good, i think i heard about it because Ira Glass recommended it.


good stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by srussell0018 I wasn't claiming that god exists or that there was any way to prove it. I agree that having faith in something that cannot be explained scientifically can seem foolish, but to dismiss anyone who believes in it as being fools is a bit strong. They may end up being right afterall.

They are fools. They are fools just as the ones that believe that other foolish things like unicors, faires, leprechauns, gnomes, pixies, orcs, yetis or the loch ness monster are real. Yet if you believe in the things i mention everybody calls you a fool to your face, but when you one up that and add god to the list of foolish made up things people start getting defensive.

"Hey now, we can all agree that all other mythical beings are in fact bade up, but GOD IS REAL!"

Something like that.

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Originally posted by Moongoose They are fools. They are fools just as the ones that believe that other foolish things like unicors, faires, leprechauns, gnomes, pixies, orcs, yetis or the loch ness monster are real. Yet if you believe in the things i mention everybody calls you a fool to your face, but when you one up that and add god to the list of foolish made up things people start getting defensive. "Hey now, we can all agree that all other mythical beings are in fact bade up, but GOD IS REAL!" Something like that.

Sam Harris makes this point exquisitely and hilariously clear.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Calling religious people gullible fuckwits is entirely valid, because they are.

How about you graduate from High School before you call over a billion people fuckwits.

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Originally posted by Moongoose They are fools. They are fools just as the ones that believe that other foolish things like unicors, faires, leprechauns, gnomes, pixies, orcs, yetis or the loch ness monster are real. Yet if you believe in the things i mention everybody calls you a fool to your face, but when you one up that and add god to the list of foolish made up things people start getting defensive. "Hey now, we can all agree that all other mythical beings are in fact bade up, but GOD IS REAL!" Something like that.

Reductio ad Absurdum

quote:

Originally posted by Alex23 How about you graduate from High School before you call over a billion people fuckwits.

Honestly, if you are religious, no matter how smart you are, I think it should be considered a critical character flaw. It makes it hard to trust anything they say if they are willing to blindly follow superstition.

What if they don't blindly follow it?

There are a lot of smart religious people. Augustine/Aquinas etc.

I don't think it's a character flaw that they were religious, that would be fairly absurd.

Hell, even Darwin was an agnostic

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby ...they are willing to blindly follow superstition.

Yes. Reduce their position to a condition, like (intellectual) blindness.







What's funny is that it actually takes intellectual blindness to follow that line of shit to the conclusion it's supposed to imply.

I am religious but I've never followed in blindly.

I've studied philosophy of religion as well as theology, biology and physics.

I constantly question what I believe and what the church wants me to believe.

Religion as an intellectual pursuit is ridiculous. It might have been in the past, but no longer. There is simply no need for it.

I knew I would stir the pot a bit. Arguing with each other only accomplishes to see who has a better wit or who can construct an argument.

I'm sure I'd lose and I concede.

But to be fair, because of my viewpoint, I tend to read, and listen to speakers who support what I believe, strengthening what I understand. I go to church on Sunday and listen to sermons. I fellowship with others and we build a community where we share the same beliefs and can strengthen each other's beliefs. I do occasionally read up on Dawkins, but because of my indoctrination of my own beliefs, I find it rather absurd, just the way you find Christianity absurd. You wouldn't find me hanging out at the local secular freethought society, because I don't belong there.

If you believe God is absolutely rubbish and people who follow it are blind sheep, then you will surround yourself with videos, books, and people who believe. I'm sure you find 'religious' people irritating, and I apologize on behalf of them (as little as it means). In the same way, you probably won't find yourself inside a church listening to a sermon, because those beliefs are not yours, and no one wants to be in a room where people believes otherwise.

I go to clubs, drink beer, and have a good time like everyone, but I also try to live my life according to what I believe God has made me to be, even though I fail daily to the moral standards prescribed. I went to university, and graduated after 4 years of listening telling me God doesn't exist. Yet, for some reason, I hold to my beliefs. That means I'm either stupid and misguided, a lunatic, or maybe perhaps there is something more to my beliefs.

If you think I'm stupid and misguided or a lunatic, at least be nice

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Originally posted by EddieZilker Yes. Reduce their position to a condition, like (intellectual) blindness.

It is a condition. You wouldn't call someone who is in their 30s sane if they based all their actions on how Santa will judge them come December 25th would you? If someone was to say "Thank Santa for pulling us through that car accident alive" would you not go "lol wtf... that person is nuts!"

Believing in invisible, non-existent things and then letting them influence your life is a mental condition. It is a human induced mental disorder that allows you to be coerced.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Religion as an intellectual pursuit is ridiculous.

With the construction of some of these arguments, it would appear the same could be said of atheism.

quote:

Originally posted by J.L. I knew I would stir the pot a bit. Arguing with each other only accomplishes to see who has a better wit or who can construct an argument. I'm sure I'd lose and I concede. But to be fair, because of my viewpoint, I tend to read, and listen to speakers who support what I believe, strengthening what I understand. I go to church on Sunday and listen to sermons. I fellowship with others and we build a community where we share the same beliefs and can strengthen each other's beliefs. I do occasionally read up on Dawkins, but because of my indoctrination of my own beliefs, I find it rather absurd, just the way you find Christianity absurd. You wouldn't find me hanging out at the local secular freethought society, because I don't belong there. If you believe God is absolutely rubbish and people who follow it are blind sheep, then you will surround yourself with videos, books, and people who believe. I'm sure you find 'religious' people irritating, and I apologize on behalf of them (as little as it means). In the same way, you probably won't find yourself inside a church listening to a sermon, because those beliefs are not yours, and no one wants to be in a room where people believes otherwise. I go to clubs, drink beer, and have a good time like everyone, but I also try to live my life according to what I believe God has made me to be, even though I fail daily to the moral standards prescribed. I went to university, and graduated after 4 years of listening telling me God doesn't exist. Yet, for some reason, I hold to my beliefs. That means I'm either stupid and misguided, a lunatic, or maybe perhaps there is something more to my beliefs. If you think I'm stupid and misguided or a lunatic, at least be nice

You know why you wont find me in a church? Because I chose to think for myself, and not have my ideas or perceptions of the world taught to me by someone else, like a pastor or priest or rabbi, or mullah, or whomever it may be.

The world is for you to understand, not to be told how to understand it by someone else. If you chose that path your are selling yourself short and choosing a life of easy answers and ignorance.

Anyone who takes a look at the world with out the blinders of a church upbringing will clearly see that there is no higher power than humanity itself. We are our own masters.

quote:

Originally posted by EddieZilker With the construction of some of these arguments, it would appear the same could be said of atheism.

I think the concept of atheism as a way of life is absurd. It is not a way of life, it is an absence of a way of life. People that do not subscribe to religion are not atheists unless their pursuits are solely based on denying religion. Otherwise they are just people who live for themselves or humanity.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby It is a condition. You wouldn't call someone who is in their 30s sane if they based all their actions on how Santa will judge them come December 25th would you? If someone was to say "Thank Santa for pulling us through that car accident alive" would you not go "lol wtf... that person is nuts!" Believing in invisible, non-existent things and then letting them influence your life is a mental condition. It is a human induced mental disorder that allows you to be coerced.

You have only your assumptions, leading you to believe that all religious people hold their beliefs, blindly; that there wasn't some other cause which brought them to their conclusions. You've essentially reduced your opponent to a non-thinking cult-member, incapable of analysis outside of group-think and both speaking and thinking in terms of argument/thought-negating cliche'. It's a lot easier to argue with your imaginary blinded automaton, because when they put up a fight, anything they say can be circuitously dismissed as a symptom opposing an actual argument. Not that you'd actually 'win', in either the case of a sane religious person or a traumatized cult member, but you'd at least derive some satisfaction out of pathologizing your opponent with only the qualification of your closed-circle algorithm.

In that regard, accusing religious people of being coerced while using coercive language with which to assail their belief system, doesn't hold water as non-coercive. While there's no doubt such techniques have their efficacy, when it comes to dominating people's thinking in a way which precludes independent thought, your arguments don't promote the independent thinking you're accusing your opponents of lacking.

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby I think the concept of atheism as a way of life is absurd. It is not a way of life, it is an absence of a way of life. People that do not subscribe to religion are not atheists unless their pursuits are solely based on denying religion. Otherwise they are just people who live for themselves or humanity.

Again, this has more to do with your own assumptions about what constitutes being religious than it has anything to do with what I think about atheism. My point was that you're preaching it and, in doing so, using logical fallacy to support your beliefs.

Faith is blind, its the defining part of it. Faith requires you to put blinders up to the lack of factual evidence that your beliefs are true.

Oh Nou...

Ever heard of a guy called NT Wright? He offers plenty of factual evidence regarding Christianity and the New Testament.

Same with William Lane Craig. Not to mention a dozen other philosophers that deal with Christianity and faith.

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Originally posted by Alex23 Oh Nou... Ever heard of a guy called NT Wright? He offers plenty of factual evidence regarding Christianity and the New Testament. Same with William Lane Craig. Not to mention a dozen other philosophers that deal with Christianity and faith.

Philosophy and science are two completely different things. There may be many facts presented, but nothing that proves anything as the courts say, "...without a shadow of a doubt." If you want to believe the New Testament, by all means, do so. But you're certainly not doing it because the evidence is so compelling.

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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin Philosophy and science are two completely different things. There may be many facts presented, but nothing that proves anything as the courts say, "...without a shadow of a doubt." If you want to believe the New Testament, by all means, do so. But you're certainly not doing it because the evidence is so compelling.

Actually I do believe it because the evidence is compelling.

Don't make so many assumptions, kinda makes you look moronic.

quote:

Originally posted by Alex23 Actually I do believe it because the evidence is compelling. Don't make so many assumptions, kinda makes you look moronic.

Your arguments are compelling to me... Compelling me to think that you are a retard.

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