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-- The illegal war is on :: denounce America’s imperialism !
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quote:

Originally posted by TranceGeek NO WEAPONS HAVE BEEN FOUND!!

What makes you say that, exactly?

Do you assume that no weapons have been found because they haven't reported any findings on Canadian TV?

Don't believe everything you see/hear/read. I'm NOT saying that there definitely ARE weapons, I'm just saying you need to stop citing this "fact" as a basis for your argument. It's absolutely ridiculous. We heard you say it the first time, so shut up about it already. You don't know for a fact that they haven't found any weapons just because they haven't shown them to you.

Personally, if I were in any sort of military intelligence position, I could think of very good reasons not to blab to all the cameras about what weapons we found. Do we really want to cause widespread panic throughout the USA? Wouldn't it, for example, be better to show the American public pictures of the weapons after they've been destroyed so they won't have to freak out?

I know this is just speculation, and I'm not for a minute trying to pass it off as fact. But what you keep saying is also speculation. You don't know this for a fact. This is why I hate the media culture (and the media coverage of the war in general). People accept everything they say at face value, and assume that if they haven't seen it on TV, it doesn't exist.

Edit: I want to add one thing - props to Time2Burn and greg, who actually seem to be making some coherent points here. Although it WOULD be nice to see other people doing the same.

here is a list of a few schools with higher acceptance rates than Georgetown (easier to get into)

U of Pennsylvania (ivy)
Dartmouth (ivy)
Tufts
Rice
Wesleyan
Cornell (ivy)
UC-berkely
UCLA

have you heard of any of those schools? they are all, by far, better than ANY Canadian institution.

Georgetown accepts 21 percent of applicants, the two schools directly above it, are Amherst with 19, and MIT with 17. Have you heard of them???

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut What makes you say that, exactly? Do you assume that no weapons have been found because they haven't reported any findings on Canadian TV? Don't believe everything you see/hear/read. I'm NOT saying that there definitely ARE weapons, I'm just saying you need to stop citing this "fact" as a basis for your argument. It's absolutely ridiculous. We heard you say it the first time, so shut up about it already. You don't know for a fact that they haven't found any weapons just because they haven't shown them to you. Personally, if I were in any sort of military intelligence position, I could think of very good reasons not to blab to all the cameras about what weapons we found. Do we really want to cause widespread panic throughout the USA? Wouldn't it, for example, be better to show the American public pictures of the weapons after they've been destroyed so they won't have to freak out? I know this is just speculation, and I'm not for a minute trying to pass it off as fact. But what you keep saying is also speculation. You don't know this for a fact. This is why I hate the media culture (and the media coverage of the war in general). People accept everything they say at face value, and assume that if they haven't seen it on TV, it doesn't exist. Edit: I want to add one thing - props to Time2Burn, who actually seems to be making some coherent points here. Although it WOULD be nice to see other people doing the same.

so ur trying to say that canadian news AND american news "wouldnt" say that they HAVE found weapons of mass destruction??? why not??if it is a justification, why wouldnt they?? to preventpanic???? that really is NO justification.

would they rather prevent panic than prevent oppression of the other governments in the world so taht they can get support from the rest of the world??


it geos to prove that there ARE no weapons of mass destruction

under a budget of 1.2 billion only for an army, its hard to spare some change for development of weapons of mass destructoin

quote:

Originally posted by DJ El Kay Dee so ur trying to say that canadian news AND american news "wouldnt" say that they HAVE found weapons of mass destruction??? why not??if it is a justification, why wouldnt they?? to preventpanic???? that really is NO justification. would they rather prevent panic than prevent oppression of the other governments in the world so taht they can get support from the rest of the world?? it geos to prove that there ARE no weapons of mass destruction under a budget of 1.2 billion only for an army, its hard to spare some change for development of weapons of mass destructoin

Oh my god, why don't you actually READ the post before replying.

I'm saying the media does not necessarily have any fucking clue what's really going on. They can't report on things they don't know. They take what they have and blow it out of proportion to make "news." We ALL know this, there's no sense in denying it.

I'm not letting you involve me in this kind of petty dispute, Liam. I made a point and admitted it was speculation along with everything else in this thread. Now please be polite and make the same admission, because you don't know the facts any better than the rest of us.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut you don't know the facts any better than the rest of us.

true dat, there could be so much confidential info hidden...

Ok lets stop this pointless bickering and change the subject a little bit.

It seems to me that no one can really get straight what this war is really about. Thus all this bickering over various issues. Its one of the main differences between this war and the first gulf war which had a very clear reason: Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Even the US can't get why they are at War staright. First it was to end the threat of terrorism. But when the couldn't prove any ties they had to move to the fact that they have weopons of mass distruction. But when those weren't found they have decided to concentrate on making the war about ousting Saddam. But if this is the case why hasn't the US invaded and taking over ALL the "evil" dictatorships in the world?

The antiwar people keep on going on about oil this and oil that. Which also can be easliy refuted.

So what in your opinion are the real reasons for the war?

Here is my opinion.

After 9-11 the US decided that to end all threats against them in the world they must actively go out and change regiems that do not comply to how they think the world should be run. The middle east has always been a threat to the american way of life. They resist american influence and are willing to fight for their beliefs.

To end this threat the US has decided to Democratize the region which basically means to gain governemntal power in order to open up the free market in the middle east. Iraq is an easy target because of their history and the fact that 10 years of sanctions they are weak.

To quote George Bush "this war is about the interests of our nation". These intrests are economic, to gain control of a very rich region that poses a threat to the "American way" of life. They don't care about freedom for Iraqi people if they did they wouldn't be dropping bombs on a city with a population of 500 000 innocent civilians.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut You peacemakers need to actually start showing some facts to support your argument instead of just telling us to "look at the facts."

vs.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Don't believe everything you see/hear/read. I'm NOT saying that there definitely ARE weapons, I'm just saying you need to stop citing this "fact" as a basis for your argument. It's absolutely ridiculous. We heard you say it the first time, so shut up about it already. You don't know for a fact that they haven't found any weapons just because they haven't shown them to you.

ok now honestly, are you really STUPID, or are you just playing? i hope you're playing, but it looks like you're really serious

first you want facts, then you don't... actually you do, but you want certain facts that only go in favour of YOUR argument... well make up your mind bud, do you want the truth, or is it that you can't handle the truth (always wanted to say that )??

the reason why US is going to war is because of weapons of mass destruction, do you really think that if they did find these weapons they would keep it to themselves? they would automatically show it on CNN to justify the war...

you want to argue here, yet you have absolutely NO CLUE what you're talking about...

TranceGeek: I am serious, and I can assure you I'm anything but stupid. If you'd bother to use your head here, you'd realize that these two statements make perfect sense together.

I ask people to state facts. Stating that "no weapons were found" is NOT a fact, because nobody here has any particular knowledge of U.S. military intelligence. I'm not asking for "facts that support my argument" because I have no argument to state (speaking of which, why do you automatically assume I'm pro-war? I never said any such thing). I'm asking for facts that are actually facts and not assumptions or idle speculation.

Your comment about automatically showing it on CNN to justify the war is simply not valid. The U.S. government does not need to justify anything, since they already have the full support of the American people. It really does not matter to Bush if other countries don't support them in the war - it only matters if they actually take a stance in defending Iraq, which they have not chosen to do.

Time2Burn: Again, good point, it does seem like the government is scrounging for good excuses on why they're fighting. That's something for the pro-wars to think about.

I won't bother anyone by posting further in this thread. If you need to continue this argument further with me, do it on PM (although, I don't tend to respond positively to flames on PM either, as some of you may know).

In conclusion I'd like to say: The war on Iraq has caused one of the worst "wars" I've ever seen on this forum. If you people truly believe in the ideals of peace, then try making peace with each other before telling the U.S. to make peace with Iraq.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut In conclusion I'd like to say: The war on Iraq has caused one of the worst "wars" I've ever seen on this forum.

ahahahahahahahha...funny u should say that cos this is jsut a 2nd grade fight as compared to the really heated wars that this board experienced in between september2002 and november 2002

quote:

[i][b] In conclusion I'd like to say: The war on Iraq has caused one of the worst "wars" I've ever seen on this forum. If you people truly believe in the ideals of peace, then try making peace with each other before telling the U.S. to make peace with Iraq.

best point made so far

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGeek sometimes, but not in this case

i disagree.. but maybe i didn't use the right word, should have said intriguing..

quote:

Originally posted by oceanlab On a different note...is that a pic of you in your avatar? cuz if it is, DAMN you're UGLY!!!

which men would you consider gorgeous then .. ?

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I'm all for peace, I really am, but this is fucking ridiculous. You peacemakers need to actually start showing some facts to support your argument instead of just telling us to "look at the facts."

here's ur fact !!

^^^^^
And that's a very good one, right there...


Also, the funniest thing I've heard today is George Bush actually asking the senate for $75 BILLION dollars (or something along those lines) to rebuild the Iraq... hahaha! This guy is so full of shit. First he spends like $200 BILLION dollars on his army and getting ready for the war, the bribing of the surrounding nations (Turkey), and now he wants to spend some more money on rebuilding everything he's managed to destroy (and will manage to fuck up in the next couple of weeks)... and he still has support of so many Americans? Geez, some of those supporters have to be the dumbest people on the face of this planet! That amount of money he could've used to rebuild your health care or education system which is pretty disguisting as it is, but no, he just choose to throw it away like that, fighting the so-called "terrorism" in Iraq that US actually supported a few years ago...

altough i promised myself not to post in this pointles thread ever again,

i just thought id post this really great post i read which was posted a few minutes back in the chillout room by Vesa

here: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...158#post1297158

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut TranceGeek: I am serious, and I can assure you I'm anything but stupid. If you'd bother to use your head here, you'd realize that these two statements make perfect sense together. I ask people to state facts. Stating that "no weapons were found" is NOT a fact, because nobody here has any particular knowledge of U.S. military intelligence. I'm not asking for "facts that support my argument" because I have no argument to state (speaking of which, why do you automatically assume I'm pro-war? I never said any such thing). I'm asking for facts that are actually facts and not assumptions or idle speculation. Your comment about automatically showing it on CNN to justify the war is simply not valid. The U.S. government does not need to justify anything, since they already have the full support of the American people. It really does not matter to Bush if other countries don't support them in the war - it only matters if they actually take a stance in defending Iraq, which they have not chosen to do.

First of all, how do you expect to argue ANYTHING if you are unwilling to accept facts? You would rather accept accusations than facts. So I ask again, are you STUPID or are you just playing?

Second of all, if there were any weapons, you would see it CNN minutes after it was found (since 70% of CNN is owned by US military contractors it would be in their best interests to showcase their findings and help fund the war machine).

And lastly, you should perhaps refer to your trusty dictionary and check what the word fact means, since it seems you are clueless as to its true meaning.

quote:

Originally posted by fantom ^^^^^ And that's a very good one, right there... Also, the funniest thing I've heard today is George Bush actually asking the senate for $75 BILLION dollars (or something along those lines) to rebuild the Iraq... hahaha! This guy is so full of shit. First he spends like $200 BILLION dollars on his army and getting ready for the war, the bribing of the surrounding nations (Turkey), and now he wants to spend some more money on rebuilding everything he's managed to destroy (and will manage to fuck up in the next couple of weeks)... and he still has support of so many Americans? Geez, some of those supporters have to be the dumbest people on the face of this planet! That amount of money he could've used to rebuild your health care or education system which is pretty disguisting as it is, but no, he just choose to throw it away like that, fighting the so-called "terrorism" in Iraq that US actually supported a few years ago...

i remember a Late LAte Show quote that almost killed me when i heard it ..

i think it went something along the lines of ..

"President Bush just announced a $200 million dollars aid package for Iraq. He's promised that if it works there he's willing to try it here."

- Conan O'Brien

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut This thread is sad. Look, I still don't want to take sides, but here's what I see: Anti-War: The American government is a bunch of imperialists! Down with war! Down with the imperialist government! Pro-War: But how else will they get rid of Saddam? Anti-War: Who cares! They don't have any weapons! Why do they need to kill Saddam!? This war is unjustified! Where's the proof?? Pro-War: Uh... it's right he- Anti-War: (cutting in) Completely illegal I tell you! Make love not war! Barbarians! Bush won't even listen to his people! Nobody wants a war! Pro-War: Um, actually, 70% of- Anti-War: (cutting in again) Who cares! The Americans are all a bunch of imperialist swine anyway! Down with war! Down with the imperialist government!

This is by far the best point made on here and it's exactly what is happening in this thread. Nobody is addressing the point.
Every anti-american here continues to criticize Bush's motives. We understand it benefits America's oil interests. We understand he wants an ally government in place. This has been said over and over like a broken record. Saying it for the hundred and fourth time isnt going to convince anybody else. Everybody understands this and just because you agree with the war doesn't mean you don't know about the alterior motives.

The fact is that these are not reasons NOT to go to war. There are other benefits to Iraq and its people and the rest of the world (including other ARAB countries such as Iran and Kuwait) that nobody seems to address. I brought up the question before, what should the world do with IRAQ that ensures the safety of the American people the Iraqi people and the safety of the rest of the world? Somebody answer the question please because its the only one that should be answered if you dont support this war.


Next, Oceanlab, I am sick of you boasting about the university you went to. Nobody here cares. Just because you claim you went to Georgetown doesn't make you any smarter than anybody else on this board. It doesn't make you right and it does not make your opinion more justified than anybody else.

quote:

Originally posted by oceanlab so polls mean a lot more than you could probably imagine.. as my credibility goes...I DONT GIVE A FUCK...these are my opinions...and unfortunately for your side, they are true. I can back my shit up with knoweldge of the world taken from a poly si degree from one of the best universities in the world...what can you back it up with? cbc news?

quote:

Originally posted by oceanlab On a different note...is that a pic of you in your avatar? cuz if it is, DAMN you're UGLY!!!

heh is this how Georgetown teaches it's students to argue their points? If all else fails insult someone's looks? Did they teach you that too? Is that what Georgetown teaches you? Nice university. You have alot to be proud of. You certainly got a quality education. If Georgetown is as good as you say it is and Georgetown is graduating people like you it really makes me wonder. What a hit to American institutions.


On a side note you seem to be somewhat mislead about Canadian universities. Many Canadian universities have had serious problems with staffing. They are loosing top professors to American universites because they are offered more money. Some critics say our quality suffers but I don't know if I agree. That said, Canadian universities are still generally considered among the most difficult and the most demanding in the world. If you don't like how people view Americans, if you don't like people calling you ignorant because you were educated America maybe you shouldnt do the same and be so quick to judge other country's education systems. In this case, about Canada, you are just plain wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGeek NO WEAPONS HAVE BEEN FOUND!!

I guess not.

I am sure you have heard that Iraqi soldiers in the greater Baghdad area have recently been issued gas masks. Marines have alsi recently found a supply of nerve gas antidotes and more than 3000 gas suits in an iraqi base located within a hotel. I guess they are preparing for an American chemical weapons attack. I mean that is the American strategy right? Gas as many soldiers and civilians as possible. That's that only logical conclusion because there is no proof Iraq has chemical weapons.

oceanlab: HA! Laughing in your face! All that education you got in Georgetown or wherever that was (no, we haven't heard of it, probably because it's not even worth mentioning) isn't worth a thing in this discussion, and you've just proved it with all your ignorant comments (trying to make fun of LKD, Canadian educational system, etc, etc). By the way, I don't even think Canadian educational system is that good anyway, but American system is definitely way behind the Canadian one either way...

to all others that don't see anything wrong with Bush's attempt to take out Saddam, I have only one thing to say --> Iraqi people hate only one person more than Saddam, and that person is Bush himself! So if you think they're gonna welcome him as a saviour, no they won't! They'll just have one tyrant replacing another...

And Time2Burn, you seem to be one of the only ones able to carry some serious discussions in here... but what happened to that lit candle avatar?!

quote:

Originally posted by fantom And Time2Burn, what happened to that lit candle avatar?!

he couldnt stand its close resemblence to himself

quote:

Originally posted by DJ El Kay Dee he couldnt stand its close resemblence to himself

Yah i remember seeing someone like that when i was at viva for scott bond, never knew it to be time2burn

quote:

Originally posted by fantom oceanlab: HA! Laughing in your face! All that education you got in Georgetown or wherever that was (no, we haven't heard of it, probably because it's not even worth mentioning) isn't worth a thing in this discussion, and you've just proved it with all your ignorant comments (trying to make fun of LKD, Canadian educational system, etc, etc). By the way, I don't even think Canadian educational system is that good anyway, but American system is definitely way behind the Canadian one either way...

Canadian education is better than American? So the top three Canadian Universities (U of T, McGill, and Waterloo, whatever they might be) are better than Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc etc etc??? or maybe you've never heard of Harvard? maybe you think Humber college grads get multi-million dollar salaries?? the only thing better in Canada is the weed...even second tier US schools are better than any school in Canada, and you would think that you would at least have heard of Georgetown through college basketball.

and how the hell does your ignorant ass know what the Iraqi people are thinking? damn, I have never known a forum with so many uneducated jack-asses.

and FANTOM...why do you have a picture of Vin as your Avatar? Is it cuz you wish that was you? Or do you have a little crush on him? "not that there's anything wrong with that" HOMO.

quote:

Originally posted by oceanlab "bombs over baghdad" hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha kill em all...they should bomb syria, jordan, and lebanon as well...fuck HAMAS, fuck all the hate that has plagued the middle east with violence since the hay day...since 1948 when a perfectly peacful state was attacked on the eve of its birth, the "Zionists" now rule the world...and the arabs that hate on that just have to accept it, or die not accepting it...either way is fine with me.

What a fucking tool – All set for a ban (Saddam remix)

^^LOL

Oceanlab you should remove that "****PLUR****" from your sig cause you seem to have lost respect.

quote:

Originally posted by Tudo Beleza Yah i remember seeing someone like that when i was at viva for scott bond, never knew it to be time2burn

Ya that was me running around with my head on fire.

Fantom: changing my avatar got me addicted to changing my avatar.

quote:

Originally posted by oceanlab Canadian education is better than American? So the top three Canadian Universities (U of T, McGill, and Waterloo, whatever they might be) are better than Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc etc etc??? or maybe you've never heard of Harvard? maybe you think Humber college grads get multi-million dollar salaries?? the only thing better in Canada is the weed...even second tier US schools are better than any school in Canada.

Harvard? Stanford? Bah... just because the admission to those schools is limited to prestigous (read "wealthy, well off, rich mother ******s") students whose parents can afford to send them to those schools doesn't mean that they get so amazing education in there... in fact, I remember that article in Toronto Star by a student that attended both Harvard and University of Toronto and concluded that the top students in Harvard would be barely able to get a "B" mark in University of Toronto!

quote:

and how the hell does your ignorant ass know what the Iraqi people are thinking? damn, I have never known a forum with so many uneducated jack-asses.

Maybe my "ignorant" and "uneducated" ass actually listened to what Iraqi people down there are saying... unlike some of us that just listen to what that idiot Bush is saying.

quote:

and FANTOM...why do you have a picture of Vin as your Avatar? Is it cuz you wish that was you? Or do you have a little crush on him? "not that there's anything wrong with that" HOMO.

Calling me a HOMO? Wow, I feel really hurt now... whoop-dee-fucken-doo! What a hell do you care what's in my avatar?! This is a public message board and I can post a pic of your sister naked if I wanted to (but that would be just gross, so I won't even bother).

And why do you have that fag Oakenfold in your avatar? You have a crush on him or something? I don't get it...

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