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-- Hugo...doing it again.
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I agree that this seems very rushed that will no doubt lead to initial confussion (also it might have been more sensible moving it back a whole hour so it would link up with another time-zone), but there are campaigns in all countries round the world to alter the time to allow for more sunlight (in fact, that's the very reason both you and me change our clocks twice a year in the first place!)

As for a good reason, how bout children not having to walk to school in the dark in one of the most violent and crime ridden countries in the world?

It's a proven fact (at least according to UK statistics) that more crime is committed in the dark than in light

uhm, if that's all he cared about, wouldn't it be a lot easier to just change the hours of school operations by 30 minutes? That way he doesn't create all of the other silly side effects. I think this is much more of a power-play statement than you're giving credit for.

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Originally posted by Shakka uhm, if that's all he cared about, wouldn't it be a lot easier to just change the hours of school operations by 30 minutes? That way he doesn't create all of the other silly side effects. I think this is much more of a power-play statement than you're giving credit for.

Well then the public can decide at the next election can't they? Not that any of you support democratic elections in Venezuela given your defence of the 2002 coup participants...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well then the public can decide at the next election can't they? Not that any of you support democratic elections in Venezuela given your defence of the 2002 coup participants...

Why bother putting anything on the ballot when Senior Chavez can just declare what he wants and get it without having to go through the frivolities of due process?

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Originally posted by Shakka Why bother putting anything on the ballot when Senior Chavez can just declare what he wants and get it without having to go through the frivolities of due process?

Because he and his supporters won the presidential and parliamentary elections?

My god you really don't have a clue do you?!

Do you know what an election is?!

Here's a question Shakka...do you know what happens when somebody with a manifesto does when they win an election?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Because he and his supporters won the presidential and parliamentary elections? My god you really don't have a clue do you?! Do you know what an election is?!

Apparently you don't get sarcasm.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Here's a question Shakka...do you know what happens when somebody with a manifesto does when they win an election?

Celebrate?

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Originally posted by Shakka Celebrate?

And then they implement all the policies they were elected to do...

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Originally posted by Shakka Apparently you don't get sarcasm.

That's funny cos you've been coming out with similar rubbish throughout this thread, can I assume from that that you don't actually believe all the accusations against Chavez made by the Venezuelan opposition, the American government and everyone else in corporate America??

I believe it is evident by a plethora of Chavez' actions since coming to power that he fashions himself more like a king with limitless power than an like an elected official. That much is quite obvious.

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Originally posted by George Smiley And then they implement all the policies they were elected to do...

Can you show me where in said manifesto that Hugo Chavez claimed he was going to do all of the things he's doing now. You know--all of the shit us Hugo-haters have been saying for 19 pages now? Did he run on a platform of rampant inflation and wealth destruction? What about the rest?

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Originally posted by Shakka Can you show me where in said manifesto that Hugo Chavez claimed he was going to do all of the things he's doing now

Can you show me ANY government that said in their manifesto all the things they do?!

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Did he run on a platform of rampant inflation and wealth destruction? What about the rest?

I wouldn't have thought so.

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Originally posted by Shakka I believe it is evident by a plethora of Chavez' actions since coming to power that he fashions himself more like a king with limitless power than an like an elected official. That much is quite obvious.

Do you support democracy or dictatorship?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Can you show me ANY government that said in their manifesto all the things they do?!

Then why did you even bring it up? Seems pretty moot.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Do you support democracy or dictatorship?

This isn't about me. But since you asked, I support the individual's right to pursue self-actualization above all else.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Do you support democracy or dictatorship?

I'm being to wonder about this of you actually...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I'm being to wonder about this of you actually...

Yet here I am championing the rights of man to have a say in the running of their country through free and fair elections, but you, on two threads now, are suggesting that the population of a given country should have no rights to chose their government...

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Originally posted by Shakka Then why did you even bring it up? Seems pretty moot.

Because when you have a free and fair election (something the Americans on this thread do not support) each candidate/party has a manifesto and the electorate vote for which ever one they prefer. No manifesto in the world will ever contain 100% of the policies introduced by the winning candidate/party because it is impossible. But Chavez and his manifesto of far reaching social reforms is what the people voted for, what they wanted, and that is what they've got.

If those policies don't work, well that's a completely different thread because we are talking about whether the actions of Chavez are democratic or undemocratic, and the FACT is, beyond all reasonable doubt, that they ARE democratic. That's not to say you can't criticise Chavez's policies (as people criticise the policies of Bush or the Labour Party) but one criticism you cannot make of him is that he is using power undemocratically (which is what this thread is dicussing)

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Originally posted by Shakka This isn't about me. But since you asked, I support the individual's right to pursue self-actualization above all else.

And that would make you a socialist no?

What made you think the “Captain’s Quarters” blog was a reliable source of information escapes me, but concentrates on nationalisation again

The final source is from Alek Boyd, never heard of him but I’m sure his blog is a great source of reliable and unbiased information!

Shakka, you’re a lazy git aren’t ya! Do you honestly think that typing +Chavez +dictator in Google isn’t gonna bring up a whole load of unreliable, unsubstantiated claims that, funnily enough, claim Chavez is a dictator?!

How about instead of finding silly biased articles that we both know exists in abundance, you respond to the points that I have made? [/QUOTE]

And you come back with those two sources??? Hmmm I suppose I could respond with counter-arguments from the weekly standard:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conte...5ruylo.asp?pg=1

But I can’t stoop that low. Apparently you’ve been learning a few things from republicans … What’s next, memory hole?

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What is the penalty for treason in America? It's the death penalty isn't it? You're babbling and trying to beat around the bush - face facts - in America, all those that helped to organise and participated in a military over thrown of the government would be on death row - FACT

“FACT”?? The only “facts” that I’m facing is you’re increasingly imitating the Bush administration in trying to defend a failed policy/stance at any expense which only digs you further into the grave while fully endorsing cognitive dissonance.

The penalty for treason in the US is legally defined as, “whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

Yes with those facts in mind, obviously the US would put those tv producers to death!!

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1999 - wrong, 2001 - perfectly reasonable

What? The media did a story on corruption in the military and the government threatened to revoke their license and that’s “perfectly reasonable” with you??

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We have done RCTV to fucking death and I have no desire to repeat myself. This article says NOTHING that has not already been covered by me. Assuming that you haven't - read the two articles I posted above. I have nothing more to say on RCTV (and neither have you seeing as you have now read the two articles above)

Apparentely we haven’t. Can you pull the relevant information from the two articles you posted? I mean after all, you did say this to me when I asked you to respond to my argument, “Then post it again and tell me exactly what you want me to comment on because iirc I've replied twice to that post and have no intention of repeating myself if you're not going to tell me what you're on about” and I requited my arguments. Show me similar courtesy.

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Well I criticised something in this post, and earlier I seem to recall criticising the laws that said you could not "insult" or "deflame" the President, but only if that IS what the law says and I am loathed to believe the press until someone who can speak Spanish can find the exact law and give me an exact translation of it (or just post a link and my mum will translate it!!! )

C’mon Georgie, you’re completely incoherent. WTF are you talking about? If you’re referencing something I said than freaking quote it and respond to it. You presented a completely nonsensical criticism. Bringing in Spanish linguistics isn’t going to help.

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There is no justification to the amount of attention given to Venezuela by Americans, American media and the American government compared to other countries around the world (including a lot propped up by said nation) other than the fact that Venezuela poses a direct economic threat to America. Nationalising the oil industry, in my very honest opinion, is the only reason Venezuela is receiving so much criticism and the source of all the media fabrications...

Dude … all my sources were REUTERS and the BBC. I posted criticism that came from the EU. What’s your excuse for all of that???. Stop with the strawmen arguments already … it’s getting pathetic. Attaching “American” to a criticism does NOT an argument make.

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Erm that it has allowed the government to pay for extensive social and education programs for people who had otherwise had no access to such programs in the past? Pretty laudable if you ask me.

Erm so raise taxes to pay for those initiatives rather than nationalize an efficient and performing industry that will ultimately lose more money in the long run.

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Originally posted by George Smiley And that would make you a socialist no?

How do you figure? The individual doesn't even exist in an identifiable manner in a socialist construct.

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Originally posted by Shakka How do you figure? The individual doesn't even exist in an identifiable manner in a socialist construct.

Of course it does! That's just a lazy assumption people make who don't actually know what socialism is!

In a capitalist society, it is impossible to be economically equal and therefore it is impossible to have equal opportunities in life because your opportunities depend on what you can afford...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Of course it does! That's just a lazy assumption people make who don't actually know what socialism is!

socialism = collectivism
collectivism = opposite of individualism

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And you come back with those two sources??? Hmmm I suppose I could respond with counter-arguments from the weekly standard: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conte...5ruylo.asp?pg=1 But I can’t stoop that low. Apparently you’ve been learning a few things from republicans … What’s next, memory hole?

Of course you can use the Weekly Standard! And of course I will call you a neocon if you do!

But, you asked me what I had criticised about Chavez and the story in the WS was what I criticised earlier (if you remember). Altho I detest the WS and would try my utmost to argue against anything it said, it's still not some individual's internet blog, so as much as I don't think "reliable" and "Weekly Standard" should ever be used in the same sentense, its at least more reliable than some two bit internet blog that is easily disputed

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“FACT”?? The only “facts” that I’m facing is you’re increasingly imitating the Bush administration in trying to defend a failed policy/stance at any expense which only digs you further into the grave while fully endorsing cognitive dissonance. The penalty for treason in the US is legally defined as, “whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." Yes with those facts in mind, obviously the US would put those tv producers to death!!

In America, would helping to organise and implement a military overthrow of the democratically elected (actually, as we're talking about America, perhaps that should be "democratically" elected) government be considered treason - yes or no?

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What? The media did a story on corruption in the military and the government threatened to revoke their license and that’s “perfectly reasonable” with you??

I read that wrong - I read as if it said Chavez had warned them because Globovision were involved in corruption in the military, not that they reported on it. If that is the actually story then I will take it back what I said about it being reasonable (IF that is the story which I remain sceptical...)

You have to remember the media in Venezuela is not the same as in America or Europe. It's a whole different ball game. Altho obviously we have media companies that have political sympathies and back certain parties, they are expected to try to remain impartial and unbiassed (which a hell of a lot fail to do!). But in Venezuela there seems to be complete political polarisation in the media to the extent the media companies are directly interfering with the democratic process. Whatever you think about Chavez, if you have any concern for democracy you would certainly have concern for the actions of the undemocratic Venezuelan opposition for their lack of consideration fro the democratic process (something you falsely accuse Chavez of). Now in the UK, we have libel laws, as does the US...I think the owners of the Venezuelan opposition media companies would have their own box in the courts if they opperated in any of our two country's!

So you have to bare in mind constantly one - are reports of media censorship true or undistorted; and two - are the actions of the Venezuelan opposition media compatible with democracy?

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Apparentely we haven’t. Can you pull the relevant information from the two articles you posted? I mean after all, you did say this to me when I asked you to respond to my argument, “Then post it again and tell me exactly what you want me to comment on because iirc I've replied twice to that post and have no intention of repeating myself if you're not going to tell me what you're on about” and I requited my arguments. Show me similar courtesy.

I'll do it in the next post as not to confuse things...

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C’mon Georgie, you’re completely incoherent. WTF are you talking about? If you’re referencing something I said than freaking quote it and respond to it. You presented a completely nonsensical criticism. Bringing in Spanish linguistics isn’t going to help.

My point was that the story about it being made illegal to "insult" Chavez in the media (could this simply be libel laws?) was rather ambiguous and liek I said, I remain sceptical of the media being able to report the truth over Chavez (boy who cried wolf syndrome I guess). You asked me what I criticised, and I said this story (the WS article you posted up earlier covers the stroy in more depth). The spanish translation is because I would be interested what the ACTUAL wording of the law said, and not the interpretation of some anti-Chavez journo...

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Dude … all my sources were REUTERS and the BBC. I posted criticism that came from the EU. What’s your excuse for all of that???. Stop with the strawmen arguments already … it’s getting pathetic. Attaching “American” to a criticism does NOT an argument make.

The BBC doesn't accuse Chavez of being a dictator unlike the American media...In fact it's stayed pretty nuetral, making a point of saying that Chavez was elected democratically. When controvercial stuff is said about Chavez, the BBC tend to report using words such as "alleged" etc, whereas in America, you get these comments and analysise printed as facts, rather than opinions. Just the impression I get anyway.

The reason I use "American" is because America seems to be the only nation that cares that much about Venezuela, the only reason being is the economical culture that says socialism equals an evil dictator that wants to sell WMDs to terrorists to blow up New York...

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Erm so raise taxes to pay for those initiatives rather than nationalize an efficient and performing industry that will ultimately lose more money in the long run.

Not very often does a party who wants to raise taxes win elections!

But like I said, if your criticisms of Chavez are economical then keep it that way, don't trawl the internet for people siting political criticisms so you can use them to back up your economic criticisms...

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