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- USA - West Coast / Las Vegas
-- The NO on Prop 8 thread....
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| Originally posted by bas Why is religion even being brought up in this debate in the first place? It was my understanding that religion and government shouldn't be mixing together at all. Separation of church & state and all that. |
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| Originally posted by gehzumteufel While you can draw parallels between the two, that is for the reason being that we have laws like no murder for a reason. It impedes upon someones right to pursue happiness. |
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| Originally posted by system-7 [QUOTE]Originally posted by DJ RANN Dude, you keep quoting scripture about this, but why are you quoting a book that was written from multi-generational whispers 300 years after the fact? This bit is important - I don't have to respect your religion - at all - I just accept that it's there and don't disrespect it. You need to do the same. The 10 commandments have nothing to do with US law, so there's no need to have this argument. It's a matter of society law, not religious scripture. [/QUO I dare you to read Levitcus and go through law school, and deny that our US law don't mirrors that book. |
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| Originally posted by system-7 They have to be parallel, the Old law is to show us how sinful we are and how we can not attain perfection. The new law is the fulfillment by Christ. (dang, I said the C word) And how by through grace we establish perfection. But to establish perfection is a lifestyle that we must pursue until we die. That is challenging enough to make many run and hide. No one ever said it was gonna be easy. |
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| Originally posted by DJ RANN I have read most (not all) of leveticus. It's simply because murder is wrong and so is stealing etc. These are not religious positions, just moral, and I don't need the church to tell me what is right or wrong in my life or society as a whole. People shouldn't say fuck your church - it's disrespectful to your beliefs and it's purposefully hurtful to your way of life. But telling other people they cannot get married, in a non religious ceremony, is hurtful and disrespectful their way of life, which I'm sure you're book does not allow...... I dare you to read the age of reason or common sense by Thomas Paine and the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. I actually think everone who has been brought up religious should read this just so at least they know the other side of the belief. |
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| Originally posted by gehzumteufel So then in your own words, you are sinning as you are not loving gay people as yourself. Allowing them to marry, fuck each other in the ass, adopt kids, be foster parents, etc. So therefore, you have called yourself a hypocrite also. |
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| Originally posted by system-7 They have to be parallel, the Old law is to show us how sinful we are and how we can not attain perfection. The new law is the fulfillment by Christ. (dang, I said the C word) And how by through grace we establish perfection. But to establish perfection is a lifestyle that we must pursue until we die. That is challenging enough to make many run and hide. No one ever said it was gonna be easy. |
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| Originally posted by DJ RANN I have read most (not all) of leveticus. It's simply because murder is wrong and so is stealing etc. These are not religious positions, just moral, and I don't need the church to tell me what is right or wrong in my life or society as a whole. People shouldn't say fuck your church - it's disrespectful to your beliefs and it's purposefully hurtful to your way of life. But telling other people they cannot get married, in a non religious ceremony, is hurtful and disrespectful their way of life, which I'm sure you're book does not allow...... I dare you to read the age of reason or common sense by Thomas Paine and the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. I actually think everone who has been brought up religious should read this just so at least they know the other side of the belief. |
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| Originally posted by gehzumteufel You are thinking about it all wrong. They are parallel because of our RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS in our constitution. So it doesn't matter what your god says, it is about the impeding of that right upon someone else. If you impeded upon that right, you are violating the constitution and it is therefore, illegal. |
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| Originally posted by DJ RANN Yup, that's the main point and why the constitution has no mention of doing right by God or religion. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" - the cornerstone of the declaration of independence. This is what US laws are based on, not religion. In fact the reason the US was founded in this way was to get rid of the strong religious laws imposed on them by the British! |
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| Originally posted by gehzumteufel Yep. You notice he hasn't replied to my other post? |
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| Originally posted by gehzumteufel Yep. You notice he hasn't replied to my other post? |
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| Originally posted by system-7 I'm trying..I start to explain and then i get 10 other people trying get answer from me. are we still on the love they neighbor and God question? i don't mind, makes the day go by faster..but i'm only here til 5p |
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| Originally posted by system-7 I will take you up on that offer.. Lets see if thomas Paine and Richard Dawkins ideas can hold up for 2000 years. |
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| Originally posted by gehzumteufel The point was that no matter what laws are created, love thy neighbor as thyself requires that you not pass judgment on others for what they may or may not be "sinning" for. Whether you think they are sinning, that is not for you to decide, and is therefore, not for you to control. Although that is neither here nor there, as you have already violated the constitution by not allowing someone the right to pursue happiness. |
It's only a matter of time until they declare the ban on gay marriage unconstitutional on the federal level anyway. Then everyone can deal with it or gtfo.
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| Originally posted by system-7 I understand, but you are trying to contradict the love thy God part by saying i should agree with the homosexual lifestyle. Loving your neighbor and loving his lifestyle are two differen things. |
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| Originally posted by bas It's only a matter of time until they declare the ban on gay marriage unconstitutional on the federal level anyway. Then everyone can deal with it or gtfo. |
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| Originally posted by bas It's only a matter of time until they declare the ban on gay marriage unconstitutional on the federal level anyway. Then everyone can deal with it or gtfo. |
Religion
The best way to be good and do good is with no religious/superstitious expectations of heaven nor hell - otherwise we're doing good for reward or to avoid threat of punishment - dogs behave like that - humans shouldn't. Having been a social worker, I've observed that even young infants have a sense of ethics and fairness when dealing with each other - long before being indoctrinated among the 3,000+ religions - all of which have only one thing in common - they each think that THEIRS is the only correct "god". Since there is only one - which one is correct? - the one that we are brainwashed with?
In the bible we find: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
The bible has that particular "ethic" all wrong.
I say: "Do unto other as THEY would have you do unto them." People may not like what you like, so it's unethical and arrogant (the sin of pride) to "do unto them as YOU would like to be done to.
Our founding fathers took much of their ethical stances from the French Enlightenment Philosophers who in turn borrowed heavily from Aristotle's Nichomachea Ethics. Particularly Thomas Jefferson, who the framers of the U.S. Constitutional borrowed heavily from based on Jefferson's own Virginia Constitution. Having taken several courses on Aristotelian ethics and logic, I regard him as one of the most brilliant minds of the past 2300 years.
Most of what can be found in terms of moral and ethics in both the old and new testaments, can also easily be traced to similarites in Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Syria and the Egyptians. Ethical laws and the notions of equality and tolerance were around long before Moses and Jesus - if morality was not instinctive, and it is, we would have never made it to the time of Moses.
It's interesting that a "Christian" in here states that "Prop 8 passed, it's over, so why continue to debate" - but he continues to debate it anywhere.
His "baring false witness" aside, the truth is that it's not over. The ACLU Of Northern CA, The ACLU of Southern CA, ACLU San Diego, dozens of other organizations and hundreds of attorneys are suing to have Prop 8 overturned for the religious bigotry and intolerance it is.
If we want to use "Christian values" as an argument against NONheterosexual marriage, consider the faulty superstitions on which Christianity is flimsily built upon:
Gluttony is mentioned as "an abomination" in the bible far more than anything approaching being gay (Soddom was more about gluttony with prostitutes than it was about men with men). Jesus himself never said a word about homosexuals/lesbians/transgender/transsexuals - but he did have plenty to say about treating minorities with love, respect and fairness.
When the bible mentions gluttony as an abomination, it is also in the context of too much food. How many fat old Jerry Falwell-types were out there hypocritically voting YES on Prop 8? Probably thousands.
But then again, everything we know about Jesus was written and rewritten starting nearly a hundred years after his death - our newspapers can't even get history straight from a week ago, much less a 100 years ago. What gives the "Christians" the arrogance to boast that their Jesus is true and correct (The bible also mentions boastfulness as an abomination SEVERAL times, and yet Christians proudly boasted when their beloved Prop 8 passed).
But allow me to mention just one of many scientific findings that refute the superstitions of Christianity. Much of Christian symbolism is the "Cross" - it is at the heart of their songs, stories, and even when they "cross" themselves in prayer. Yet, anthropologist now know that the Romans never used crosses - They were actually shaped like T's. A cross would have been impractical, would add unneeded extra weight and thus would have been harder for the criminals to "carry them down the streets". The details may seem minor, but the bigger issue is the continuous of "lies in the name of tradition".
Most debates I've had with Christians end up with them conceding psychologically to the tune of: "Don't bother me with science and facts, my mine is made up". Belief is not fact or else it would not be called "faith" - and as we see in this thread, blind faith even at the cost of excluding others from equality.
From evilbible.com:
"It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said �Thou shall not kill�. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of �all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses� (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.
The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).
This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it�s OK. If more people would actually sit down and read the Bible there would be a lot more atheists like myself.
Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.
The God of the Bible also was a big fan of ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice.
And just in case you are thinking that the evil and immoral laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, perhaps you should read where Jesus makes it perfectly clear: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB) There are many more quotes on this topic at my "Do Not Ignore the Old Testament" web page.
I know that most Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven�t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don�t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love."
I would hate to do this becuase this thread has been very interesting and brought up some great points and arguements. Plus this issue is far far from over. But is it time for me to delete it? Let me know what you think. Not an easy choice but I'm tired of being frustrated about this, at least for now.
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| Originally posted by DJ Reese I would hate to do this becuase this thread has been very interesting and brought up some great points and arguements. Plus this issue is far far from over. But is it time for me to delete it? Let me know what you think. Not an easy choice but I'm tired of being frustrated about this, at least for now. |
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| Originally posted by gehzumteufel It is/has been going in circles as this guy does not know how (SHIT WHAT A SURPRISE!!!!!!!) to separate religion from logic. |
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| Originally posted by fury I've yet to find a single Yes on 8 supporter that knows how. |
Gay Lifestyle verse origentation
Gay Lifestyle? The intellectually honest term is NONheterosexual ORIENTATION. Most gay/lesbian/transgender/intersexed people will tell you they were born that way and knew they were different since childhood, just as most heterosexuals realize they are attracted to the opposite sex at an early age. I had a girlfriend at age 13 and a friend of mine had a girlfriend at age 12.
Honestly, who would "choose" to be "gay" knowing all the hatred, prejudice, injustice and misunderstanding they would get? All too often, it even means death. In many Muslim nations, "gay" people are executed or have their hands cut off all the time. Surely, IF it was a "choice" they would chose not to go through that?
Deeper into the point, many hermaphrodites / intersexed people are born with equal amounts of male and female genitals - Apparently since their "all-loving" "all-powerful", "all-knowing" creator has not only created these people but KNEW of the prejudice that would befall them from his own "believers" - who do the "Christians" suggest intersexed people have a right to marry?
I've asked this many times - so far, still no answer.
self: As I said to system-7, the lifestyle is them, and therefore, you can not separate them from their lifestyle.
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