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quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King And the Canaanites and Jebusites and the persians and the Turks.. and the greeks and the Romans.. Should they also have a right to take it from the Indigenous population?

hence my earlier assumption that claim to land based upon historical or even cultural pretext is too confusing

quote:

still does not excuse terrorism from Hamas or any terrorist groups on the behalf of palestinian people

Dude stop spewing this righteous bullshit. Excuse or not, agree or not; many many people will resort to such tactics sooner or later if the conditions force them to. It's so easy for everyone here sitting in front of their computer in a nice air conditioned house to talk about how "wrong" Hamas is for "terrorizing" (everyone's favourite word these. Of course it only goes one way) the Israeli's but nobody ever takes into account the conditions that the Palestinians have been subjected to live in for the past few decades.

http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/...?stream=stream4

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan hence my earlier assumption that claim to land based upon historical or even cultural pretext is too confusing

What about based on Indigenous populations?

That seems to be the trend for all nations on earth.. except the COLONIZED ones.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan

dude, I read all ur posts in this thread and ur really starting to piss me off!!! ur nothing but a liar and a hypocrite, and a self-righteous prick who thinks he knows everything.

quote:

Originally posted by T_ALI dude, I read all ur posts in this thread and ur really starting to piss me off!!! ur nothing but a liar and a hypocrite, and a self-righteous prick who thinks he knows everything.

strong opinionated, yes.

liar and hypocrite?

lol. where?

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King What about based on Indigenous populations? That seems to be the trend for all nations on earth.. except the COLONIZED ones.

and how do you define indigenous population? within what time period? because people move around. not to mention tribes merge and assimilate each other and whatnot, making cultural distinctions difficult

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH Dude stop spewing this righteous bullshit. Excuse or not, agree or not; many many people will resort to such tactics sooner or later if the conditions force them to. It's so easy for everyone here sitting in front of their computer in a nice air conditioned house to talk about how "wrong" Hamas is for "terrorizing" (everyone's favourite word these. Of course it only goes one way) the Israeli's but nobody ever takes into account the conditions that the Palestinians have been subjected to live in for the past few decades.

i've already addressed this before, but I'll do it again.

no matter how righteous your cause may be, if you are willing to stoop the level of your oppressors in order to achieve your goals, you are NO BETTER than your oppressors. you give up your moral high ground.

do I understand why terrorist tactics are being employed by desperate people? of course. do I agree with their use? no

to use an analogy, if your family is starving, and you have no means of getting food, so you steal in order to feed your family.
do I understand why you would steal? yes. does this make it right that you're stealing? no

Guy 1: you are pro-Israel!

Guy 2: you are pro-Palestine!

Guy 1: you are just buying into Western propaganda!

Guy 2: you are just buying into Hamas propaganda!



Do you people actually think you will come to a consensus on this? What a joke. No matter how many 'facts' are brought out, the other side just is not willing to listen.

seriously...just bomb the shit out of both parties until they are all dead. Then the US can go in and start building more Starbucks.

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan do I agree with their use? no does this make it right that you're stealing? no

Whether YOU think it's right or not is irrelevant to the discussion. Do you think that I'm somehow supporting Hamas in launching missiles into Israel? Hell no. But the situation and conditions at hand are what force Hamas to do what they do. Sure they can take the "bigger man" approach and not do anything. But where would that get them? Or their people? Should they just sit back and let Israel walk in and take everything away from them? Hell they practically did anyways.

.

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH Whether YOU think it's right or not is irrelevant to the discussion. Do you think that I'm somehow supporting Hamas in launching missiles into Israel? Hell no. But the situation and conditions at hand are what force Hamas to do what they do. Sure they can take the "bigger man" approach and not do anything. But where would that get them? Or their people? Should they just sit back and let Israel walk in and take everything away from them? Hell they practically did anyways.

Hamas wasn't form until 1987 IIRC so by that time, Israel has already 'walk in and take everything away'

The situation still does not excuse Hamas from their choice of tactics.
Alternative to using suicide bombers and indiscriminant rocket attacks on civillian population is targeting only the military targets or other targets relevant to military efforts.

Hamas can come up with all the reasons why thy must resort to terrorism. In the end, their acts are still that of terrorists which is WRONG

quote:

Originally posted by Yohan and how do you define indigenous population? within what time period? because people move around. not to mention tribes merge and assimilate each other and whatnot, making cultural distinctions difficult

Look at the world today..

You and I know the a Chinese person is NOT from ITaly.. and a polish person ISNT from Jordan or Lebanon or what was PALESTINE..

Its not that hard to understand.

I bet there's a good reason why Hamas isn't targetting military locations. I wonder what it is........

(don't worry I'm sure it'll come to me soon).

Once again though you're so quick to condemn Hamas for resorting to terrorist tactics but fail to mention anything that Israel does.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King zionist propaganda.

Ahaha I missed you. Knew you'd turn up in here eventually!

But if you and jad would care to reread some of what I wrote earlier (as if I don't know that you won't), I never denied that the land (or part of it anyway) was called Palestine and that there were an indigenous people there. I simply said that there was no Palestinian state, which is the absolute truth. Whomever may have lived there and whatever they may have done, it was owned by the British and before that various other Arab powers. There was no Palestinian government, and the land was not recognized by anyone - Jew, Muslim, Christian, or otherwise - as being a sovereign nation.

Do you deny this to be true?

Further to that I also pointed out that many of the Palestinians living on that land today are not indigenous to the region, that they were exiled or migrated from Jordan or Lebanon or one of the other nearby lands, or are the descendants of those families. Do you also deny this to be true?

As for Palestinians being known beforehand as Philistines, there is no evidence to back up that claim. Yes, the words sound similar, but Nigerian and Nigerien also sound similar (identical, in fact) yet refer to separate entities. Or take Guianese / Guyanese or Ghanaian / Guinean. There's no etymological explanation for how or why the spelling and pronunciation could have changed from Philistine to Palestinian, and so the only rational conclusion one can draw is that they came from different sources.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Look at the world today.. You and I know the a Chinese person is NOT from ITaly.. and a polish person ISNT from Jordan or Lebanon or what was PALESTINE.. Its not that hard to understand.

and the jews came from where? middle east?

i'm pretty sure jews didnt originally come from europe

and if you want to argue where jews came from, where did palestinians originate from?

there are a lot of jobbernowls in this thread

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH I bet there's a good reason why Hamas isn't targetting military locations. I wonder what it is........ (don't worry I'm sure it'll come to me soon). Once again though you're so quick to condemn Hamas for resorting to terrorist tactics but fail to mention anything that Israel does.

dude, i have already condemned Israel's tactics multiple times in this thread. hell, i just posted an article that said Israel blew up a school just today

my position in this thread is that both sides of this conflict are doing stuff that is wrong

my main beef with this thread is that some posters are somehow trying to Palestinians as the good virtuous angels who are doing nothing wrong against bad Israel

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH many many people will resort to such tactics sooner or later if the conditions force them to.

Conditions never force anybody to resort to terrorism, any more than poverty forces people to resort to crime. Certain people will resort to those options on account of expediency and having a somewhat less rigid moral code.

Do not forget that Israel has, several times in the past, negotiated in good faith, offering something very close to the pre-1967 borders, in return for nothing but a cessation of violence, and the Palestinians rejected those offers out of hand. This does not appear to indicate a lack of alternatives; rather, it indicates a belief that the current strategy is in fact the most effective one for accomplishing the stated goal (the dissolution of the state of Israel).

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH I bet there's a good reason why Hamas isn't targetting military locations. I wonder what it is........

For more or less the same reason that smaller-scale terrorist groups take civilian hostages - because it works.

quote:

Two Schools Hit by Israeli Missiles; Death Toll Mounts over 640 deaths, over 40% children and women, and over 3000 wounded in Gaza Israeli missiles crashed into two U.N. schools today, killing at least 30 people in one school and three more in the other attack as the chaotic fighting became deadlier than ever. Israeli rockets strike United Nations school used as a shelter in Gaza. More Photos The attacks on the schools are certain to heighten international outrage over Israel's Gaza offensive as well as diplomatic pressure for a cease-fire. The carnage has increased as fighting has edged closer to Gaza's teeming population centers. Hamas fighters are battling back with suicide attackers, Israeli "friendly fire" was blamed for the death of four troopers and whole families are being killed while huddling in their homes. As many as 640 Palestinians have died and 2,850 were wounded in the 11 days of fighting so far, according to Palestinian medical sources. Six Israeli soldiers have been killed and 70 wounded, according to the Israeli military. The heaviest toll came today when an Israeli missile slammed into a U.N. school in Jabaliya. John Ging, director of U.N. refugee operations in Gaza, said there were at least 30 dead at the school and 55 injured, including five who were critically wounded. Palestinian sources in Gaza, however, told ABC News that more than 40 died in the school rubble. Ging said 350 people had sought refuge in the girls' school and it was clearly marked as a school. Israel Claims to Kill Hamas Military Leaders The Israeli military also confirmed that it had killed Iman Siam, the head of Hamas' rocket launching program. The Israeli military says Siam "founded the organization's rocket launching program" and was "the head of Hamas' artillery program throughout the Gaza Strip." Stopping the rocket attacks was why Israel invaded Gaza, but the rockets continued to zoom out of Gaza toward towns in southern Israel. An additional 26 rockets were fired so far today. Israel also claimed to have killed four Hamas fighters ranging from a battalion commander to a senior commander. Israeli military sources say that of the approximately 15,000 trained Hamas fighters in Gaza, there are about 1,000 who have received additional training and operate in leadership roles. Israel's military says taking out even a few Hamas leaders could strike a devastating blow to the organization. The intensified fighting is increasing the number of civilian casualties. Medical sources in Gaza report that 35 Palestinians were killed through the night and that 28 of them were civilians. In total, more than 600 Palestinians have been killed in the 11-day Israeli campaign and nearly 3,000 injured. The United Nations says 25 percent of the casualties are women and children. In Gaza, the victims are finding there is no place to hide. In the Toufah neighborhood east of Gaza City, a tank shell tore into a home killing all 13 members of an extended family, according to ABC News producer Sami Zyara. In a heart-wrenching scene at a Gaza hospital Monday night, a man held the lifeless body of his 3-month-old son. The boy was carefully wrapped in blankets, a bandage around his head. There was little doctors could do. The child died from wounds suffered in the fighting. Tears rolling down his face, the father kissed his son goodbye. The Israeli military says it does not target civilians and officials stress that Hamas hides behind civilians and launches its rockets and mortars from civilian areas making it difficult for Israeli missiles to avoid collateral damage. Dr. Mads Gilbert, a Westerner who has been working in Gaza's Al Shifa hospital during the Israeli offensive, said there was no doubt in his mind that Israel is targeting civilians. "Among the injured," Gilbert told BBC News, "45 percent are women and children. � Among the killed, 25 percent of the killed are children and women. � So these numbers are contradictory to everything Israel has said." source: http://abcnews.go.com/International...=6584413&page=1

disgusting.
absolutely disgusting.

I can only pray that these mother ******s can one day watch their own kids and family members die in front of them.

absolutely fucking disgusting.

Once again, I'm not advocating attacks on schools, but be wary of the mass media's persistent use of the word "children". Many (not all, obviously) of these so-called children are part of the militant groups.

quote:

Originally posted by evil_cookie disgusting. absolutely disgusting. I can only pray that these mother ******s can one day watch their own kids and family members die in front of them. absolutely fucking disgusting.

they do. whenever a rocket hits a neighbourhood. or when suicide bomber blows up in a cafe. etc. (obviously not to degree that the palestinians are suffering now)

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Conditions never force anybody to resort to terrorism, any more than poverty forces people to resort to crime. Certain people will resort to those options on account of expediency and having a somewhat less rigid moral code. Do not forget that Israel has, several times in the past, negotiated in good faith, offering something very close to the pre-1967 borders, in return for nothing but a cessation of violence, and the Palestinians rejected those offers out of hand. This does not appear to indicate a lack of alternatives; rather, it indicates a belief that the current strategy is in fact the most effective one for accomplishing the stated goal (the dissolution of the state of Israel). For more or less the same reason that smaller-scale terrorist groups take civilian hostages - because it works.

How would you explain this then?

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Once again, I'm not advocating attacks on schools, but be wary of the mass media's persistent use of the word "children". Many (not all, obviously) of these so-called children are part of the militant groups.

watch this clip and tell me how many militant childern dead bodies do you see and see how old they are ..... Even if you write 12 paragraphs in return to me for this.... you still wont be able to justify shit to me.

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