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Re: Re: Re: vinyl records vs cds

quote:

Originally posted by dj portion [QUOTE]Originally posted by dj portion The sound out of vinyl is so much better too as it soesnt have to be compressed to fit into a cd file you loose so much of the nice sub bass and also some of the high range stuff on cds

Thats just utter rubbish! It's been discussed to death when CD's first released in early 80's and proved to be wrong with many times. 48000 Khz sampling rate is close enough for us humans to not be able to tell the difference. Unles you're a dog it's not different! Wave format is not compressed as it put on original CD's, unlike mp3.
How do I know? I know because I'm an electronics engineer and a little deaf cuz of listening loud trance music for years

Only problem can rise from the CD audio; reproduction of the original sound. It could be slightly different (nobody can hear it but can be dedected with special equipment) due to the error correction algorthym used to compansate missing bits information (99.99999% accurate) as it read from the CD surface with some errors. Many of you computer whizz's will understand Parity check, CRC, Checksum etc. Well error correction algo in a CD player is like 100 times more complex and accurate and will compansate nicely.
You might as well go more stupid and prefer Valve amplifiers over Mosfet ones and claim they have a warmer sound (of course damn things heat up like hell) Then you'll set up with all the "genuine" audio equipment. Would you like to get a Gramophone with that sir?

Final Note: although I'm a defender of CD technologie or digital audio in this instance, I still prefer Vynil where possible because I like a little bit of imperfection and scratch sound coming from the speakers....

I prefer to mix vinyl because it makes me feel like a man. It also increases the size of my penis and makes it more likely that I will be able to pick up since I look cooler. It also makes me feel like I'm a real DJ because I have to carry around a good 10-15 kilos of records. And I like the fact that I have to spend $15-20 for two or three tracks, usually just a remix of the same song. Plus I get to bag out people who like to use CDs on completely pointless threads by throwing around terms that I very loosely understand. And lets face it, the average clubber would be able to detect (and infact care about) the minute difference in audio quality of a track played on a club PA system. So yeah... CDs suck...

I can't believe the amount of wankers on this thread who want to kill vinyl dead in favor of cheaping out both financially and in terms of investing the time in learning DJing, not DJing on "records" and how that factors into other aspects of the culture itself.

Give your heads a shake for a few minutes and understand this...

"The quick and easy path forever will dominate your destiny."
What does digital mixing technology represent? Gee, I wonder.

It is not acceptable for people to use the following excuses in their defense of "digital djing"

1. It's lighter, and I can take more tunes. Bullshit. What DJ needs to bring with him the "history of dance music" out to play a 2 or three hour set that he can't stuff into a standard issue 40-70 12" record bag in order to satisfy a crowd??? Answer, A SHITTY ONE!

2. It sounds better.
Bullshit again. Vinyl sounds better because OF IT'S LIMITATIONS as it relates to the physics of sound reproduction. CD/Digital platforms toss the rules of audio engineering out the fucking window and with that creates this "wall of sound" dead end loop that people get into with engineering material for digital use only. As a result it all sounds like flattened out garbage over loud systems.

3. I can get the most recent tunes and play lots of promos for free or "download" new tracks from new producers, blah blah.
Who fucking cares!!!? So much for any of the material you play being exclusive for more than 2 days of being released "online". You now effectively are part of the "exclusively non-exclusive" tracks club. And that price tag suggests to me that its about as worth playing as well... something that's free.

I cant believe this thread is still going. Though I must say, its fun to drop in the odd dickwaving comment that whips people like yourself up into a blood frenzy once more.

Dude, fucking relax... Your prescious vinyl will be here to stay as long as junkies like yourself keep shelling out their hard earned for it.

And to retort...

... get some fucking scales and weigh a record case and then weigh a cd wallet. I think you'll be surprised..

quote:

Originally posted by djlithium I can't believe the amount of wankers on this thread who want to kill vinyl dead in favor of cheaping out both financially and in terms of investing the time in learning DJing, not DJing on "records" and how that factors into other aspects of the culture itself. Give your heads a shake for a few minutes and understand this... "The quick and easy path forever will dominate your destiny." What does digital mixing technology represent? Gee, I wonder. It is not acceptable for people to use the following excuses in their defense of "digital djing" 1. It's lighter, and I can take more tunes. Bullshit. What DJ needs to bring with him the "history of dance music" out to play a 2 or three hour set that he can't stuff into a standard issue 40-70 12" record bag in order to satisfy a crowd??? Answer, A SHITTY ONE! 2. It sounds better. Bullshit again. Vinyl sounds better because OF IT'S LIMITATIONS as it relates to the physics of sound reproduction. CD/Digital platforms toss the rules of audio engineering out the fucking window and with that creates this "wall of sound" dead end loop that people get into with engineering material for digital use only. As a result it all sounds like flattened out garbage over loud systems. 3. I can get the most recent tunes and play lots of promos for free or "download" new tracks from new producers, blah blah. Who fucking cares!!!? So much for any of the material you play being exclusive for more than 2 days of being released "online". You now effectively are part of the "exclusively non-exclusive" tracks club. And that price tag suggests to me that its about as worth playing as well... something that's free.

Errm... where do I start.

First up, think of the travel part like this...

1.
If I'm going to board an aeroplane with my records to play in a different country, (which has happened a lot in my life) I am taking a risk.
First up, try and convince the lady at the check in that your record back weighs less than the 15kg specified for international flights? It's not going to happen. This means that there is a chance of your precious record box being lost. I know this has happened to plenty of DJs, Carl Cox amongst many others.
When I take my CDs I can board a plane with the confidence that I have the tunes I want with me and the vinyl I'm taking is with me on the plane.

2.
Does it sound better? No, I agree that vinyl has a nicer over all feel but lets face it, if you play on a quality sounds system that has a good response your average clubber would never know the difference and most probably wouldn't care for that matter. I have played Vinyl, CDs and High Quality MP3s (Which I paid for) on big systems. I have tested the same tune on different and to be honest, with crowd noise and all other dynamics involved you would be hard pushed to be able to feel, see or smell a difference.

3.
Excuse me, but I know a lot of producers including some of the major ones, not to mention big name UK DJs and we regularly swap promos and talk about tunes that are going to go off and be huge. Sometimes up to a year before it ever sees public release. I'm taking a load with me to Ibiza this year for that purpose. To promote them.

With regards to performing rights:
There seems to be confusion on this forum. The performance rights are never dictated by the DJ or in which format he bought the music.
No purchase of any music entitles you to perform this in public vinyl or otherwise. This is done by the club which gets a PPL license or equivalent so that they can perform legally purchased music. Music acquired by means of duplication from a source not belonging to yourself is not allowed or acceptable in accordance with that license. It is however allowed that you play music that his been copied providing you own the original source. The original source these days also covers MP3 files that you have purchased through a licensed outlet for this format of music.

I see the way attitudes are changing towards new formats and I hear what many DJs are saying. I still thing vinyl will be around for a time to come.
I know people that own record companies and they are putting everything into digital these days as it simply costs too much to press vinyl and the amount of copies you have to sell to make anything is a lot more than you think.

Vinyl's number one enemy is not the CD or the MP3, it's worst enemy is itself and what it costs to produce.

Digital is not the quick path, nor is it evil. It's just an alternative that happens to provide great creative opportunities.

I have learned to enjoy it.

Cheers
Nem

1. I have no problems boarding international flights with my Technics record bag fully loaded. And BTW, its under 22kgs, not 15.
Also, most international airports have what are called "sealed checked baggage services" where a private company inspects the cargo, wraps it in special plastic with tamper proof tape and is loaded on board a plane along with the rest of its client luggage, and is fully insured. i.e. it never touches the standard baggage handler lines until just before it gets put into a plane. Also, try putting your record box in a cardboard box. Oldest trick in the book for ensuring something travels every time.

2. Most crowds are deaf. This comes from listening to music in this "day and age" sourced from digital, engineered for digital, but played back on an analog system (all systems for sound reproduction at the amp/speaker level are analog) completely ignoring the laws of fucking physics - and produced this "deaf audience". That and almost a decade of digital compression applied to sound material in the form of mp3s or otherwise.
The root cause of this goes back further however - way back when, - to the introduction of the compact disc -where engineers began to loose understanding of the concept of "dynamic range".
When this started to happen they simply cranked the "volume" more and more to create the illusion of "brilliance" of a mix down.
The problem with this is when you crank things up across the board you have no more headroom and effectively begin to send square, flat signal from X to Y frequency through the system and nothing has any definition to it.

3. Who cares what the "big uk djs" think?? Frankly the ones I am in contact with are scrambling to try and figure out what to do next because their entire performance market has dropped out from under them. Wonder why?? Boring toons from the same old same old perhaps? Digital or vinyl shit music is what is killing the scene and that is being compounded by moron distribution agencies who keep putting out crap.
As for the costs of releasing on 12", frankly we have that down to a pretty low price tag while not comprimising on the materials, the cut or the packaging and we manage to do just fine sellng to real DJs and stores direct.
With regards to "performance" rights as you mentioned below, our licensing system permits DJs to make use of their 12" copies of our records and create mixes with them - rights required or granted to make this possible included - and then with some limitations provide them to the public in a mixed compilation without penalty from us if they choose to do so. That is a long time coming and frankly I think if a few more labels got on board the dance music culture wouldn't be in the toilet because there would be an active DJ culture out there pushing the barriers instead of playing the "play lists" of all these big so-called "superstar UK/EU" djs, who most of which would get there heads ripped off going head to head with just about any half decent bedroom DJ on vinyl on this side of the pond.
We have DJs on Black Tiger Recordings that are fully capable of doing this now, and we know of dozens of others who can mix and put on a show at the same time that would effectively put most of the EU jetset superstars to shame...

Have fun in Ibiza. Don't take your crowd for granted.

Congradulations... you've just recieved the "TA most pretencious DJ who is more hung up on vinyl politics rather than actually mixing award"

Give it a rest dude, no one cares how cool your label is or how your average canadian bedroom DJ will rip apart your average european "jetsetter" DJ. Which I have to say, is a rediculous claim if ever I've heard one. It begs the question why they are still in the bedroom for example? I'm sure you have an answer though.

Take a bow DJlithium. Your the man. I'm converted. I'm going to burn my mp3 and CD collection and smash my DNS5000's to bits. What the hell was I thinking? Infact I'm going to melt down all that silicon and make a big plastic donger to keep up my ass to remind myself of the day I was converted to being a real DJ by your good self.

Hey no problem.
Good that you can see the light

As for the "still in the bedroom" factor, well if you had any sense of how most of this "music business stuff" works you would understand that being a "big massive dj" has effectively nothing to do with talent these days and more about marketing dollars. Being in north america that is short to come by for dance music considering any time in the past 20 years its been on the up swing some crack head pulls out the carpet from under it, cashing out as fast as possible and jumping ship.

Any time any of these favorite UK djs wants to step up and go head to head in a blind taste test, I am game and I am in fact already playing.

Not all UK djs suck, but most of the ones that granted, get most of the attention over here seriously blow chuncks.

Yeah, well dont go making completele baseless comments about the quality of an entire continents DJs. How the fuck do you know whats going on in bedrooms all over the world? Just because you and your mates can mix or scratch better or play more underground tunes than fucking sasha and digweed doesnt mean shit.

If your are as an experienced DJ and label promoter as you say you are, then you ought to know better. Seriously, this whole dick measuring thing just doesnt suit trance at all imho. Save it for the fucking hip hop man.

look man,
proof of my intentions and devotion to the music is evident in my stance against digital DJs. If you understood half of my position, and could comment on it objectively from there you might have some kind of ground to stand on. Unfortunately you don't because you keep going off topic and calling this a pissing contest between myself and the world. Well frankly its the furthest thing from it. I see the adoptation of digital mixing as the death sentance for dance music and I can trace the historical patterns and document turning points from previous downward slides and paint you a picture of how this happens - if the vinyl DJ is eliminated from the picture, and thus the acid test that the vinyl record provides for the quality of the music released and played first and foremost, from there, a whole long list of other things pops up that simply cascades the problem and even MORE SO raises a cause for concern. Digital DJ or not, if you had two minutes of deep thought on the subject you might come to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe, I am onto something here and you would take the attitude that you have towards the people that hold this business together - like the bedroom djs who buy music on records and pay them some more respect. I certainly do, and not just because they buy our products, but because they provide for the core elements that essentially cause for the recycling of creative energy in the culture itself.

You don't get the same thing with digital this and digital that and a bunch of punks standing around pumping their fists in the air ever few minutes before returning to their "hide behind the screen" performances.

Dont discount what lithium is saying

quote:

Originally posted by Axolotyl Congradulations... you've just recieved the "TA most pretencious DJ who is more hung up on vinyl politics rather than actually mixing award" Give it a rest dude, no one cares how cool your label is or how your average canadian bedroom DJ will rip apart your average european "jetsetter" DJ. Which I have to say, is a rediculous claim if ever I've heard one. It begs the question why they are still in the bedroom for example? I'm sure you have an answer though. Take a bow DJlithium. Your the man. I'm converted. I'm going to burn my mp3 and CD collection and smash my DNS5000's to bits. What the hell was I thinking? Infact I'm going to melt down all that silicon and make a big plastic donger to keep up my ass to remind myself of the day I was converted to being a real DJ by your good self.

Look,Dont discount what lithium is saying-there is a lot of sense to his arguement,and btw-his reach internationally is larger than most of you or any of the superstars would expect.I was amazed & could not believe it when i found out he was located right here in Vancouver.His sound is not exactly what one would expect to come from a city so over saturated with bad house its greasy.

Lithium is a rare breed who ses through a lot of of "trendy" crap and calls it as he sees it.If that does not sit well with you fine,But dont for a sec take what he has put forward here as being anything but serious and with a lot of background to back it up.

I dont see any of you guys with your own label pressing records by artists that he has helped to develop from around the world and launch onto other lables,While still holding down the longest running independent netstation around...so maybe you might just want to back off a bit unless you have something to add that simply doesn't just default to the a-typical excuses we all hear from digital djs over and over again

OK, so its about digital vs vinyl again, sorry I thought you were all wound up about the quality of your labels DJs.

Well if thats the case, why hasnt psy trance died in the ass? 90% of releases are on CD only? And if thats the case, then why are tons of other, trance labels supporting digital downloads? Just because your label chooses to release on vinyl only doesnt mean digital is the downfall of dance music. Seriously man, that is so far from the truth. The only thing it could threaten is vinyl only DJs who refuse to use anything else.

So vinyl is an acid test again bad releases? You could look at it that way, or you could choose to look at it as a barrier to more innovative and experimental forms of music that wouldnt be otherwise released because record labels cant afford to invest in something that they're not sure will sell. Why do you think theres so much trance out there atm that sounds the same? Economically speaking, digital should be used as a test bed. Artists get signed to digital and if they gain enough support from cheap digital downloads, then they can get released on vinyl. Infact, theres already labels that are doing it. Trancetribe recordings for one. But ofcourse that goes against the ethos that the more underground tunes get released on vinyl which would piss of the DJs that do spend thousands of dollars on vinyl. If anything, vinyl makes it more difficult for people to get into music and if you take those barriers down, then DJs dont seem quite as mysterious or as elite as they used to be and theres a lot of oldschoolers out there that frankly, just dont like that.

And for good reason they don't like it... because digital download singles doesn't translate in my experience in talking to "digital djs" and then hearing what they play - into anythig worth playing.
Most if not all digital DJs will play anything they can get their mitts on thats cheap or free that has a beat and sounds "trippy" (there is your reason as to why psy-trance is still around). Well that doesn't mean there is any "taste" in the selection available or those "purchased" and played by digital djs.

This "noise" then distracts new comers to the scene and the bright flashing lights suck them into the wankers who can't hold a mix together for more than 4 bars. They don't get the background they need, from people who know (because they were actually around long enough to understand or know the history of where different things come from in terms of the genre break down) and as a result they wander through it completely clueless, get bored and bail or collectively drag the whole thing down only to, well get bored, and bail and thus take even more new people with it.
That's NOT a good thing.

Re: Dont discount what lithium is saying

quote:

Originally posted by TIESTO_MESSIAH Lithium is a rare breed who ses through a lot of of "trendy" crap and calls it as he sees it.If that does not sit well with you fine,But dont for a sec take what he has put forward here as being anything but serious and with a lot of background to back it up.

Look, I'm not discounting him. I have heard of him before and seen his name around, which is why I was so surprised to hear such elitist views on the subject. You expect that sort of stuff from Johnny Trancemaster who has bought his first pair of technics, not from a respected and experienced DJ.

Whatever man, look peace dude. Its fine that we have different views on the subject and I'm sorry for winding you up. These sorts of debates are pointless, especially when your coming from the perspective of your label. Each one is different it seems and has different practices, so more power too you.

cool for cats,

truce for now, but my next firing round into this debate is another 12" record and two new DJ mixes which I might try to get happening tonight. Debating waiting for the test pressings or not, but whatever, nothing keeps a good record down

later.... off to mix.

22kgs is baggage. 15kgs is handluggage and peace of mind. (Personal choice)

As for your opinions on us UK DJs. I will refrain from letting this get personal and assume that this is based on a bad experience and a spur of the moment answer, as I think that you are more than comments like this.

Don't worry though, I never take a crowd forgranted, on the contrary it's my fuel and reason for doing this job in the first place. I love making people happy. I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.

My feelings on the matter are that whilst I find your enthusiasm for vinyl very touching indeed, your assesment of the Digital formats can be seen as somewhat missguided at least in my opinion.
Ultimately the art of being a good DJ has very little to do with the music format you use and everything to do with how you respond to and with the people you are entertaining.

One of the things to keep in mind with the sound quality arguement is that a lot of clubs sound bad period, what ever medium you play so there are more factors involved other than digital vs vinyl.
I admit that you can tell the difference but you have to ask yourself the question, does it go so far that it's objectionable?

A good discussion is always healthy, but I think you may also want to take on board what people are saying to you as well as enforcing your own opinions.

Overall I think the gentlemanly thing for us to do is agree to disagree.

Kind regards
Nem

Who is more foolish?The fool, or the fool that follows him?

Let people use what they want to use- be happy within yourself and stop trying to change the world and change other peoples opinions.
People like John '00'fleming do f*ck me off to be honest- as they are on a constant crusade to changes peoples opinions and push them. I can understand he likes what he uses- but it realyl does come across as a grudge against the 12". Read his diary every month for the last year if you dont believe me.


There is absolutely no reason why the two medium cant co exist happily- just like they have for years..

People are talking about cds in the dj world like they are something new??
Ive been using them in clubs for years- twin denons were the industry standard long before the cdj1000 was thought of.
They co-existed then, and they will continue to do so.

I have also seen enough cd players go wrong/start skipping etc etc to know that every cdj will have problems in years to come- because most people wont shell out to have them serviced. You cant just 'fit and forget' like a turntable.
One went wrong on saturday night- kept turning itself off and on again.
the dj was 90% cd, and found himself in a bit of a mess......oops....

Just because something is
a) new
b)different
does not mean its
1) Better
2)groundbreaking

I repeat: Let people use what they want to use- be happy within yourself and your own methods.

quote:

Originally posted by Freak Who is more foolish?The fool, or the fool that follows him?

Obi Wan Freakinobi, my dear Watsson!

Cheers
Nem

careful nem...showing your age

here is my favorite that touches on the subject matter...

"I find your lack of faith disturbing..."
Ah, starwars. happy times
Anyone up for some SW:Battlefront? =o)

this has been the most highbrow argument ive encountered on TA about music. really enjoyed it. and maximum respect to all the star wars tributes.


in time, you will call me, master....

quote:

Originally posted by djlithium here is my favorite that touches on the subject matter... "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Ah, starwars. happy times Anyone up for some SW:Battlefront? =o)

Yup, a top quality SW moment no doubt.

"Once I was but a learner, now I am the master!"

Darth Nem

PS
I'm not a scruffy looking Nerfherder before you ask.

You will destroy the rebel alliance on the white isle this summer.....you cannot fight it...it is your dessssstiny.

Hey guys,

I've been saving up for a long time, and I plan to buy some decks... I've worked a bit with some "dj package" stuff, and it definitely feels great, but i've never experienced a cdj.

now that I'm ready to spend some decent cash on some decks, i keep going back and forth between cds and vinyl...

Now, here's my concern: I'm worried that CD's will phase out in a few years... and the standard would become something like a dvd/computer dj system or something. If that happens my cdj's would be obsolete and therefore it would be useless for me to buy now.

I mean, its inevitable that cds will eventually be replaced by computers and more powerful mediums, but when that will happen... its upto the industry to decide... and its that risk that makes the stability of vinyl (that has been standard djing medium for ages) so attractive.

When I look at something like VHS vs DVD's, its kind of upsetting because it only took DVD's think about 2 years (or at least at a very rapid rate) to absolutely take over.

So what do you guys think? How stable are CDs? Is it worth the investment into CDJ's? I really want to make an informed decision so I have no regrets, especially since I doubt I'd be able to upgrade my system at all for a very long time...

Here's a link to a set up I'm thinking about :
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forum/s...257#post4306257

Thanks a lot.

mj2,

This does not address the cd question you raised, but you might want to consider, if budget allows, an allen & heath xone::62 or the pioneer djm 600 for a mixer.

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