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-- The Official 2006/2007 Toronto Raptors & NBA Thread
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quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Button TJ > Calderon If you are only keeping one of them, there is WAY more potential in Fords game.

Care to elaborate on areas in which you think TJ has "WAY more potential"?

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Button TJ > Calderon If you are only keeping one of them, there is WAY more potential in Fords game.

i really do think calderon would start on at least a third of the nba league. look what he did with Spain at the World games last summer. his stats per min are solid, it's just that he hasn't been afforded the playing time to blossom b/c ford was traded for as the defacto pg.

give him 38min a game, and i can easily see 7-8 assists and 12 points... along with a steal or two

quote:

Originally posted by SuperJimbo Care to elaborate on areas in which you think TJ has "WAY more potential"?

He's quicker.

Better at distributing the ball.

A pest on defense.

And the "WAY more potential" lies strictly on where he is in his career - I think he has the potential to be a top 5 PG in the NBA - where I see Calderon being a potential starter on most teams.

*edit - i'm not knocking Calderon either.... just stating my preference of the two

Statistical Breakdown - FORD vs. CALDERON

FG% .436
3PT% .304
FT % .819
REB 3.1
STL 1.4
TO 3.08
AST 7.9
PTS 14.0

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Button He's quicker. Better at distributing the ball. A pest on defense. And the "WAY more potential" lies strictly on where he is in his career - I think he has the potential to be a top 5 PG in the NBA - where I see Calderon being a potential starter on most teams. *edit - i'm not knocking Calderon either.... just stating my preference of the two

For all great point guards, Mental > Physical.

TJ has the physical tools, but does he have the head/temperment to be great? That is the question.

quote:

Originally posted by SuperJimbo And if I were Colangelo, I would trade TJ.

The way I had it explained it to me, it would be very unlikely that TJ would be traded. He's signed on for another two years and because of his package he's tough(er) to trade?

No?

i doubt TJ will be traded...i think having both works well...you go with whoever has the hot hand, and when he slows down, like calderon did in the 4th quarter last night, you sub in the other guy...their combined production is very impressive. Both Calderon and TJ, at least at this point in their career, are not consistent enough to be the teams only legitimate option at PG.

I'm not sure those pro-rated figures for Calderon are accurate. If he plays ~70% of the minutes that TJ does, don't you just divide all of Calderon's #s by ~0.70 to 'gross them up'? That gives him more like 12.4 PPG, for example and other stats would thus be higher too. I'm baked, so I can't vouch for my math right now though, lol

To argue in favour of TJ's stats, he plays against the other team's starters...i.e. harder competition. But...he also plays more with the Raps starters, who are more talented teammates to have on the floor with him. The converse is also true. Calderon likely sees less stiff competition if he plays more against the other team's 2nd unit, but he also plays more with less skilled fellow bench players. Some stats will be better, some will suffer, depending upon the quality of your opposition and the quality of your teammates on the floor with you.

Jeff, when you say "points, steals, assists, rebounds = ford wins", that's kind of misleading as, in most of those categories, the difference is rather small...and using rebounds? Jason Kidd notwithstanding, who cares how many boards your PG grabs? That's not their job and if another aspect of their game suffers because they're grabbing boards instead of being in a position to run up court when your big men grabs one, is that a good thing?

IMHO, one of the more relevant stats for a PG is assist-to-turnover ratio. i.e. given that they handle the ball a *lot* and it's their job to find their teammates, low turnover-to-assist ratio is a good marker.

Among PGs: Calderon is 4th in THE ENTIRE LEAGUE in assist-to-turnover ratio. TJ is 25th. How about Calderon absolutely smoking TJ in FG%? Calderon is 8th in lowest # of turnovers per game...and while TJ is 2nd only to Nash is assists-per-48min (amazing!), Calderon isn't far behind in 6th. I'd say he matches up *quite* well with TJ.

anyway, I think they're both great PGs, and it will be inevitable that when a team has two guys who can start, that the debate will rage on. They're pretty close in overall 'worth' to the Raps, but I would rather have Calderon if the Raps could keep just one...particularly given that TJ is the higher profile player and would thus likely fetch more in a trade.

btw...who is NOT enjoying the smackdown Phoenix is giving the Lakers


I dunno if trading TJ with 2 years left is 'harder' to do...mainly because a team acquiring him isn't looking to dump salary, they'd be looking to keep him.

salaries have to match in trades where both teams are near or above the salary cap, but I think it's just the annual salaries, not the total contract.

So...let's say a team has a guy with 20 mil/year, 3 yrs left...they want to dump him and rebuild. They can either try for a package of 3 young talented players who each make 6-7 mil, regardless of whether or not they have 1 or 5 year contracts, because they intend to keep/re-sign them.

or...they can try for 1 or more players making 20 mil combined, but who only have a year left, because then they are free agents and their salary is gone, leaving the team with money to shop for free agents.

this is relevant for teams near or above the cap...if a team is *way* below the cap, they can take on as much salary as they want.

for TJ Ford, 2 years isn't a long time and a team acquiring him would likely be looking to hang on to him.

that's all "AFAIK"...someone correct me if I'm wrong.

the NBA salary cap, collective bargaining agreement, etc. is a freakin' nightmare to understand

Re: Statistical Breakdown - FORD vs. CALDERON

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Button FG% .436 3PT% .304 FT % .819 REB 3.1 STL 1.4 TO 3.08 AST 7.9 PTS 14.0 FG% .521 3PT% .333 FT % .818 REB 2.2 ** STL 1.1 ** TO 1.85 ** AST 7.2 ** PTS 11.3 ** ** increased based on if calderon played the same minutes as ford. points, steals, assists, rebounds = ford wins. regardless of all that, we have both of them on the squad this year - which is one of the reason's the raps have faired so well all year. depth at the guard position is tough to find in the NBA, and when you have it you are at a huge advantage.

ford wins? not necessarily

1. Calderone's FG% of 52% is almost 8points above tj ford's 44%. awesome for a PG

2. the key stat that counts for a PG? Assist/TO, in which Calderon wins easily

3. TJ Ford is a defensive liability at 5'10" .. compared to the 6'3" calderon

quote:

Originally posted by jon jon Anyone else feel like bargnani was just taking up space?

quote:

Originally posted by exstasie Yeah, Kinda. He took some unnecessary shots. But still, he's still in recovering mode.

Plus he's still a kid in his first NBA playoffs

quote:

Originally posted by TheVrk Plus he's still a kid in his first NBA playoffs

Exactly! Plus all of the added pressure of playing at home? That has to have an effect on your game with 19,800 fans cheering for you and every shot being a critical shot! No one wants to disappoint the home town fans!


Even Mitchell was saying that the road should be better for some of these players as it will alleviate some of that home crowd pressure

quote:

Originally posted by exstasie Even Mitchell was saying that the road should be better for some of these players as it will alleviate some of that home crowd pressure

This is true in many cases

Turnovers aren't a big deal when talking about point guards. They are totally dependant on that players style of play. I wouldn't be surprised if Steve Nash led all point guards in turnovers. I know for sure he's up there.

Alright..hopefully the Raps win. I bet whatever was left over in my online gambling account on the Raptors.

The spread was +4.5 for the Raptors tomorrow...

I guess no one has faith in them haha

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree Agreed. If the Nets had a bit more depth, the experience of their key players would have carried them through. The Raps are showing jitters. But if they do beat the Nets... the confidence boost will be high

I agree. But I don't think it'll take all series for them to get that boost. Eventually, they'll have a game where the jumpers are falling, and that'll do it for them. The simple fact that they're keeping the games competitive when essentially our entire team is bent over and ready to be had is a good sign. True, we still haven't seen Carter's best this series, but we also haven't seen the best from the majority of our players yet either.

As for Bargnani, he's playing like a deer caught in headlights. During the regular season he'd often take bad shots, try his non-exsistent post up game, and essentially do other things no suited to helping the team win, but because in the playoffs each possession is magnified, he, and ultimately we cannot get away with that anymore. I suspect Andrea will be a limited or a complete non-factor for us during our entire playoff run.

quote:

Originally posted by slingshot Turnovers aren't a big deal when talking about point guards. They are totally dependant on that players style of play. I wouldn't be surprised if Steve Nash led all point guards in turnovers. I know for sure he's up there.

i'd have to disagree.

turnovers compared to the amount of dimes you dish out are very indicative of your performance as a PG.

even though Nash may lead other PGs in turnovers, the fact that he dishes out almost 12 dimes means that he is 1. distributing the ball and 2. protecting the rock

steve nash 2006/2007 season = 11.6 assists/3.78 TO = 3.07 ratio

nash = 3.1
ford = 2.5
calderone = 3.9

quote:

Originally posted by Porky i'd have to disagree. turnovers compared to the amount of dimes you dish out are very indicative of your performance as a PG. even though Nash may lead other PGs in turnovers, the fact that he dishes out almost 12 dimes means that he is 1. distributing the ball and 2. protecting the rock steve nash 2006/2007 season = 11.6 assists/3.78 TO = 3.07 ratio nash = 3.1 ford = 2.5 calderone = 3.9

This is true, the amount of times you get someone an open shot compared to the amount of times you turn it over is probably the primary stat for any PG. Anything over 3 is usually pretty good. Mugsy was best in this ratio for his career if I'm not mistaken, and he's in the 3.0-3.5 range [verify?]

Caption this photo:

Turnovers on their own don't tell the whole story...that's why assist-to-turnover ratio is a better marker of a good ballhandling PG

While Nash indeed leads all PGs in turnovers, he also leads in assists...and ends up 8th in assist-to-turnover ratio (Calderon is 4th behind Daniels, Paul and Billups...and TJ is 25th).

for a "pure PG", this is the most telling stat, along with FG% (because if you can't shoot, your opponents simply leave you alone and double up on someone else...hence Calderon's FAR superior FG% furthers the argument that he's a "better PG" than Ford...that doesn't mean Calderon is a better all-around player, just a better pure PG, IMHO).

quote:

Originally posted by Sly_Guy Eventually, they'll have a game where the jumpers are falling, and that'll do it for them.

No no no. The Raps can't play that game. The Raps should be up 2-0, if they went to the basket more. Only person who is consistently doing that is Bosh and it's useless when he's the only one going to the basket and the rest of the team takes jumpshots.
The Nets are killing the Raps in that department and if Carter gets going, the Raps are fucked.

quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree No no no. The Raps can't play that game. The Raps should be up 2-0, if they went to the basket more. Only person who is consistently doing that is Bosh and it's useless when he's the only one going to the basket and the rest of the team takes jumpshots. The Nets are killing the Raps in that department and if Carter gets going, the Raps are fucked.

Raps are a penetrate and kick kinda team on offense. Penetration is key to getting good open looks, and we've been missing those [as well as bad jumpers too]. When they do settle down, they'll start falling, and we'll be in good shape. Getting to the rim is intregral in keeping the defense honest, but in the series thus far because we haven't made anything from the outside. Because of that Jersey has done nothing but pack the paint, making it difficult to get in our offensive flow.

We can try to attack the rim constantly, but they're still gonna send us to the line. But it's when they start having to cover us on the perimeter do our options open up on offense.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT Turnovers on their own don't tell the whole story...that's why assist-to-turnover ratio is a better marker of a good ballhandling PG While Nash indeed leads all PGs in turnovers, he also leads in assists...and ends up 8th in assist-to-turnover ratio (Calderon is 4th behind Daniels, Paul and Billups...and TJ is 25th). for a "pure PG", this is the most telling stat, along with FG% (because if you can't shoot, your opponents simply leave you alone and double up on someone else...hence Calderon's FAR superior FG% furthers the argument that he's a "better PG" than Ford...that doesn't mean Calderon is a better all-around player, just a better pure PG, IMHO).

+1

what he said

quote:

Originally posted by Sly_Guy Raps are a penetrate and kick kinda team on offense. Penetration is key to getting good open looks, and we've been missing those [as well as bad jumpers too]. When they do settle down, they'll start falling, and we'll be in good shape. Getting to the rim is intregral in keeping the defense honest, but in the series thus far because we haven't made anything from the outside. Because of that Jersey has done nothing but pack the paint, making it difficult to get in our offensive flow. We can try to attack the rim constantly, but they're still gonna send us to the line. But it's when they start having to cover us on the perimeter do our options open up on offense.

Even if the Nets are playing tough interior D, the Raps should be driving to the basket first. But too many times just settle for mid range and 3 pt shots which aren't falling. Doesn't help that the Raps having problems against Nets zone defence too.

Def. not enough swinging the ball.

Raps win when they attempt to go into the paint, then see what's open. But when settling for jumpers first, Raps lose

Game Day! w00t~!

GO RAPS!

hopefully Kidd is out today...

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