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-- The NO on Prop 8 thread....
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quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel 1 rule to live by with forums, NEVER delete your threads. If you want to end it, lock it. If you can't lock it yourself, pm a mod. I know you can lock your own threads on TA.

yeah, don't do that. besides, someone can easily copy/paste or screenshot and start a new thread with the same content.

Please don't delete.

DJ, please don't delete this thread. A lot of people put a lot of time into a healthy debate, which is part of what the internet and democracy should be about. If people are still taking the time to post in this thread, obviously it's still significant to some of us, especially in light of the upcoming ACLU lawsuits and protests/rallies scheduled for this weekend.

I think the larger issues here encompass most of life itself: Love, respect, law, equality, tolerance, prejudice, superstitions verses science and a whole range of human interests which underline psychology and sociology.


___________________
"If love means wishing everyone a better world, then I can honestly say I love just about everyone."
- Chris Aable, "What is Self-Evolution?"

The board has spoken. Thread stays up. Glad you feel that way.

Thank you, DJ Reese

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Reese The board has spoken. Thread stays up. Glad you feel that way.

Thank you, DJ Reese, you're a gentleman and scholar.

Very True, Gehzumteufel

quote:
Originally posted by gehzumteufel
self: As I said to system-7, the lifestyle is them, and therefore, you can not separate them from their lifestyle.


Very true, gehzumteufel, I previously read your posts and agree.

I would also add that god "belief" and religious "faith" are certainly choices. I call it "subscribing to religion". The good news is that anyone can change or cancel their subscription and subscribe to better magazines that feature little things like logic, reason and science. I note my own sarcasm here, but it's not mean-spirited.

The "believer" is not the "belief", no matter how psychologically deep they try to cling to it. People grow, change and dare I say "evolve" all the time. Just as the map (paper) is not the territory (the real terrain), the belief is not the person, so I respect everybody's right to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't diminish equality. If "Christians", "Muslims", "Hindus", etc. don't see the difference in my calling their *beliefs* silly while *NOT* calling *them* silly, then they should question their current level of faith, internal strength and emotional intelligence.

If "YES on 8" so-called "Christians" don't want their beliefs being called intolerant, silly, antiquated and superstitious, they shouldn't subscribe to such superstitions. Most Christians I know can't even tell me half of the ten commandments, yet are very quick to judge regardless. "Thy shall honor thy father?" What if your father sexually harassed Andrea Mackris as "Christian" Bill O'Reilly did?...or bought a male prostitute while preaching AGAINST same-gender marriage as the Christian LEADER Ted Haggard did? Should we "honor" those fathers? The bible doesn't give further clarification on that matter, just as it doesn't on many other important issues.

If Christians honestly have so much faith in an "all-powerful", "all-knowing" creator (who by definition, created "gay" people) wouldn't their faith allow such a god to "know" what to do about his "creation" instead of stooping to vote away their equality in terms of spousal visitation and taxes? I

Love and peace - the most honest way is without religion, along with it's associated fairy-tale rewards and devilish punishments.

I think the next election is gonna be upon us before we see and end to this thread. Old news, intolerance and ignorance prevails. Over it!

Re: Thank you, DJ Reese

quote:

Originally posted by selfEvolution Thank you, DJ Reese, you're a gentleman and scholar.

So I've heard many times

Re: Re: Thank you, DJ Reese

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Reese So I've heard many times

I've heard many times that I'm the most modest person in the world. I always have to reply with simply, "I know, I know, but I am trying to cut down."

Re: Re: Re: Thank you, DJ Reese

quote:

Originally posted by selfEvolution I've heard many times that I'm the most modest person in the world. I always have to reply with simply, "I know, I know, but I am trying to cut down."

Not to get off the subject, but I need a TA meet up before I move to AZ in Jan. I'm sure at some point I've met all the LA peeps. I have been promoting at the highest level in LA for 5 years. I've handed you all a flyer at some point. Some good people in this thread I'd love too meet. Monday Social this monday or Nikita on the 22. Anyone down?

quote:

Originally posted by djjoshuaallen im surprised nobody has posted anything like this. I am putting my foot in my mouth. Finally a bit of factual substance http://gaylife.about.com/od/samesex...vilmarriage.htm

I'm guessing that's because this information isn't very easy to find. I had Google searched civil unions vs. marriages, same sex partnerships, etc. and came up with some useful facts, but nothing as comprehensive as this.

Surprisingly, even after this link was posted, I still saw comments about domestic partnerships having the same rights as civil marriages! For those who did not see the above message or didn't click on the link provided, it's a good list of differences between same sex marriages and "traditional" marriages, so I'm going to copy it here:

Source: http://gaylife.about.com/od/samesex...vilmarriage.htm

Question: Why Gay Marriage and Not Civil Unions?

The right to marry is not just about the actual legal ceremony, but an equal right to the extensive list of legal protections awarded to married couples. These benefits given to legally married couples range from tax relief to medical decision making. Civil unions and domestic partnerships may seem like equal unions, but the protections they give to registered couples is often far less than that of marriage.

Answer: So, why do we need gay marriage and not just civil unions? Here are a few reasons:

Number of Legal Benefits:

* Marriage: Over 1,049 federal and state level benefits (see partial list below)
* Civil Unions: Over 300 state level benefits. *No federal protection (see benefit example)

Tax Relief:

* Marriage: Couples can file both federal and state tax returns jointly.
* Civil Unions: Couples can only file jointly in the state of civil registration.

Medical Decisions:

* Marriage: Partners can make emergency medical decisions.
* Civil Unions: Partners can only make medical decisions in the registered state. Partners may not be able to make decisions out of state.

Gifts:

* Marriage: Partners can transfer gifts to each other without tax penalty.
* Civil Unions: Partners do not pay state taxes, but are required to report federal taxes.

Death Benefits:

* Marriage: In the case of a partner's death, the spouse receives any earned Social Security or veteran benefits.
* Civil Unions: Partners do not receive Social Security or any other government benefits in case of death. In the case of the death of former Congressman Gerry Studds, his partner of 15 years was denied the government pension that would have gone to a legally recognized spouse.

Child/Spousal Support:

* Marriage: In case of divorce, individuals may have a legally-binding financial obligation to spouses and children.
* Civil Unions: In the case of dissolution , no such spousal or child benefits are guaranteed or required out of state.

Immigration Rights:

* Marriage: U.S. citizens and legal residents can sponsor their spouses and family members for immigration.
* Civil Unions: U.S. citizens and legal residents cannot sponsor non-legal spouses or family members.

According to a report given to the Office of the General Counsel of the U.S. General Accounting Office, here are a few of the 1,138 benefits the United States government provides to legally married couples:

Access to Military Stores
Assumption of Spouse’s Pension
Bereavement Leave
Immigration
Insurance Breaks
Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
Sick Leave to Care for Partner
Social Security Survivor Benefits
Tax Breaks
Veteran’s Discounts
Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison


Here are a few of the state level benefits within the United States:

Assumption of Spouse’s Pension
Automatic Inheritance
Automatic Housing Lease Transfer
Bereavement Leave
Burial Determination
Child Custody
Crime Victim’s Recovery Benefits
Divorce Protections
Domestic Violence Protection
Exemption from Property Tax on Partner’s Death
Immunity from Testifying Against Spouse
Insurance Breaks
Joint Adoption and Foster Care
Joint Bankruptcy
Joint Parenting (Insurance Coverage, School Records)
Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner
Certain Property Rights
Reduced Rate Memberships
Sick Leave to Care for Partner
Visitation of Partner’s Children
Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison
Wrongful Death (Loss of Consort) Benefits

So,

Domestic Partnership <> Marriage

If anyone else claims that they are the same, please refer them to page 35 of this thread!

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Reese The board has spoken. Thread stays up. Glad you feel that way.

Just out of curiosity, I sorted all the West Coast threads by page views, and this thread came in #7 (including the stickies), with almost 8,000 views. The six other threads above were started June 2008 or earlier, while this thread was started on October 10, 2008.

So, with almost 8,000 views in less than a month, this could very well be the most pressing issue on the West Coast forum! (yeah, I know there's music and all that too...)

Thanks for keeping the thread up and I'd also say don't lock it unless necessary. If it starts stalling people's web browsers like complaints about the iPhone did on the Apple forum, just do what Apple did: lock it and then start another "continued, thread 2..."

quote:

Originally posted by in2muzikk Just out of curiosity, I sorted all the West Coast threads by page views, and this thread came in #7 (including the stickies), with almost 8,000 views. The six other threads above were started June 2008 or earlier, while this thread was started on October 10, 2008. So, with almost 8,000 views in less than a month, this could very well be the most pressing issue on the West Coast forum! (yeah, I know there's music and all that too...) Thanks for keeping the thread up and I'd also say don't lock it unless necessary. If it starts stalling people's web browsers like complaints about the iPhone did on the Apple forum, just do what Apple did: lock it and then start another "continued, thread 2..."

Thread stays up! No locking! I love it and love how much thought and passion has gone into it. I only put the idea out the becuase it seemed that we might need a break. But there is no break from this issue. I've said in my own posts that what has happened so far is only the tip of the iceberg.

This post from "selfEvolution" really showed me that deleting would be a major mistake, although I never really thought I should. Just a rush of frustration that prompted it.

"DJ, please don't delete this thread. A lot of people put a lot of time into a healthy debate, which is part of what the internet and democracy should be about. If people are still taking the time to post in this thread, obviously it's still significant to some of us, especially in light of the upcoming ACLU lawsuits and protests/rallies scheduled for this weekend.

I think the larger issues here encompass most of life itself: Love, respect, law, equality, tolerance, prejudice, superstitions verses science and a whole range of human interests which underline psychology and sociology."

Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank you, DJ Reese

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Reese Not to get off the subject, but I need a TA meet up before I move to AZ in Jan. I'm sure at some point I've met all the LA peeps. I have been promoting at the highest level in LA for 5 years. I've handed you all a flyer at some point. Some good people in this thread I'd love too meet. Monday Social this monday or Nikita on the 22. Anyone down?

I'd love to meet up with everyone at Nikita on the 22nd. Every December I drive cross-country to see family for the holidays, and I always stop in Phoenix and Tuscon on the way to Dallas. Do you know of any good trance clubs/nights in those cities? You may have given me a flyer - I get so many I don't remember everyone who hands them out - I'm usually the happy pervert wearing my own "Masturbate Proudly" T-Shirt (which got a lot of compliments at LoveFest and Monster Massive).

Oh, oh, oh....to get back sort of on topic - a lot of well-meaning people have mentioned the right of "gays" to something along the lines of "fucking each other in their butts", within the context of gay marriage. I think "gays" are more complex than that, LOL. I have a lot of NONheterosexual friends (gay and bi), and not all of them are into anal sex or define themselves as "tops" nor "bottoms" - there are a lot of things gay/bi guys do instead of anal sex - Oral sex, mutual masturbation, frot, hand jobs after long slow massages, toys and a hundred other things.

Thank goodness most of them have responsible, safe sex no matter how long they've been with their partner. Sure, love is suppose to be about trust, but not trusting someone with the highest value - life. One of the primary reasons for divorce is cheating. When a lover sleeps with someone else they are effectively sleeping with everyone that third person has ever slept with, in terms of transferring viruses and other STDs. I'm always amazed to hear both straight and non-straigt people say "I get tested regularly for HIV". If they're having safe sex, why would they need regular testing? Does anyone really want to keep having to get test until the results finally show up to be what no one wants them to be? I've never had unsafe sex, and never will. Life, with it's millions of people, places and things to know, travel, see and do, is more important than sex, because without life, there can be no sex.

That said, personally I prefer a blow-up T-Rex but they're unable to consent to marriage. I won't go into details about their multisex genitals, but one might imagine that both organs are huge. The plus side is they don't nag and can't consent to divorce. But alas I did lose the last one. It got punctured and flew out the window to the sounds of the neighbors screams and 9-11 calls. That's what I get for being a "top".

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank you, DJ Reese

quote:

Originally posted by selfEvolution I'd love to meet up with everyone at Nikita on the 22nd. Every December I drive cross-country to see family for the holidays, and I always stop in Phoenix and Tuscon on the way to Dallas. Do you know of any good trance clubs/nights in those cities? You may have given me a flyer - I get so many I don't remember everyone who hands them out - I'm usually the happy pervert wearing my own "Masturbate Proudly" T-Shirt (which got a lot of compliments at LoveFest and Monster Massive). Oh, oh, oh....to get back sort of on topic - a lot of well-meaning people have mentioned the right of "gays" to something along the lines of "fucking each other in their butts", within the context of gay marriage. I think "gays" are more complex than that, LOL. I have a lot of NONheterosexual friends (gay and bi), and not all of them are into anal sex or define themselves as "tops" nor "bottoms" - there are a lot of things gay/bi guys do instead of anal sex - Oral sex, mutual masturbation, frot, hand jobs after long slow massages, toys and a hundred other things. Personally I prefer a blow-up T-Rex but they're unable to consent to marriage. I won't go into details about their multisex genitals, but one might imagine that both organs are huge. The plus side is they don't nag and can't consent to divorce. But alas I did lose the last one. It got punctured and flew out the window to the sounds of screams and 9-11 calls from the neighbors. That's what I get for being a versatile "top".

LOL! Since it's almost 4...I assume you're drunk too I'm playing in the backroom at Nikita that night. Kinda making it one of my going away parties. So a meet up there would be great...although Guetta is playing for my former employer that night.
As far as when I'm in Phoenix...already working on some promo and DJ possiblities there
But when any TA people come through Phoenix...I hoping they hit me up.
PM me for my info.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank you, DJ Reese

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Reese LOL! Since it's almost 4..I assume you're drunk too...

LOL....nah, I'm getting too old to drink on Friday nights, not that I ever did much anyway - first time I ever got drunk was when I was 27 and that was enough for me. I'm a lightweight and can't handle more than a few well-paced Bacardi-and-Cokes on a Saturday night out - heck I get high just knowing I'll be alive tomorrow.

I'm just up working late on some songs I'm writing and tunes I'm composing. I used to play keyboards in a band called "Pan" - not a well known band but we did do a few state fairs in Texas & Louisiana with crowds of 50,000+. Back then I had a Yamaha DX 7, DX 21, Chroma Polaris and Korg remote. Now I just use a Korg D888 8-channel mixer and a Yamaha SX8 - I heard Stevie Wonder has a Yamaha SX7 so I guess he hasn't upgraded yet (?) LOL. When I get some time, I hope to learn Sound Forge or some other software so I can produce on the laptop - right now, still doing it old school - which is still a lot of fun.

Oh wait, I'm off topic - I'm sure at least a few NONheterosexuals will make better music producers when they are allowed the equality to get married - heck more of them may be productive in a lot of areas with all that time they'll be saving from having to "play the field". Not to stereotype too much, but honestly, where would all those "Christian" ladies get their nice cloths, jewelry and hairdos they show off at church without all the productive "gay" guys in their world? Happier people do happier work. Many just want to be happily married.

quote:

Originally posted by gehzumteufel Yep. And with this, I am done with this thread. It is/has been going in circles as this guy does not know how (SHIT WHAT A SURPRISE!!!!!!!) to separate religion from logic.

Unfortunately, a man trying to have sex with another man doesn't have any logic either.

and for DJRaNN, we are born sinful because sin enter through one man by disobedience.

I'm done, sorry it aggrivates you guys, but this marriage thing with gay/lesbians is just a cheap way to justify your actions. You think that by getting a married it will validate you and clear your conscience, maybe in front of man.. but in reality...thats not who we should be trying to find justification with.

have a good weekend.

More circular "logic" from System-7 - Typical prejudice born of ancient superstitions

quote:

Originally posted by system-7 Unfortunately, a man trying to have sex with another man doesn't have any logic either.

Then your "all knowing" creator "doesn't have any logic either", for he not only CREATED everyone, he KNEW all along what their sexual *choice* (factually, sexual *orientation* is the "logical" word) would be. Further, a lot of gay and lesbian sex is oral. Millions of heterosexual couples self-report that they have oral sex - by your twisted logic, they don't "have any logic either."

Again, who do you suggest intersexed people sleep with? They have both male and female organs - there are thousands of them. What does "logic" have to do with that? In the spirit of brotherhood, I am not being harsh here when I ask: Outside of the philosophy of your bible, how much have you studied the philosophies of logic and critical thinking? If you think being gay, bi or intersexed is a learned choice, then who taught the first people in every single culture where they are found dating back for thousands of years?

I know this might be a waste of time using historical facts and current psychological findings to sway you, but this will make for good posts in my other blogs and hopefully give some intellectual ammunition for those who debate in the good fight against blind faith and superstitious beliefs. No sarcasm or maliciousness intended here - because as I also noted earlier, we can all change, learn, grow and dare I say "evolve". Just as the "sin" is not the "sinner" the "belief" is not the "believer". Beliefs are just notions people cling to based on social conditioning. Knowledge is something independent of belief - because instead of asserting biblical certainty and unquestioned "faith", knowledge, by definition subjects itself to criticism, review and questioning.

An all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful god who, by definition loves us but commits genocide through floods and killing the "first born" of every house hold, while ignoring millions of prayers for wars to end, which he "KNEW" we would sin by starting them, is not the definition of a god but of a monster. Any child with half the heart and half the power of your god could do a much better job.

The LIE that the Bible was divinely inspired is one of it's biggest lies, for it has too many obvious contradictions and lies to be neither "holy" nor "divine". The bible also states that "God is not the author of confusion", but no book has been more hotly debated, fought over and even killed over, even amongst the most learned religious scholars. So either your god is illogical, lies, or your bible is a stupid thing to guide your life by. Given all the much better books on real-world ethics and morality, I would say your god fails on all three counts.

There are over a million scientific books about human nature and sexuality, each subjected to peer review and based on millions of self-reports, and you want to base your perceptions of reality on an ancient book of fairy tales known as the bible? When you understand why you don't believe in the other 3,000+ silly religions and sects, you will begin to understand why billions of people don't believe in YOUR sillly religion. We are all born atheists - it's our default position at birth. YOU are an atheist to all the other gods known and believed all over the world and even in the U.S. I just happen to believe in one less god than you do - which is ZERO. We are a nation of ethics and laws that date all the way back to the Greeks and Syrians, not your fairy tales.

After all, NONheterosexually has been going on since recorded history and can be found in all societies, even ones in which NONheterosexuals are imprisoned and killed because of the ignorance and intolerance you so proudly boast of.

Further, your notion of god and religion is a minority one - there are about a billion "Christians" in the world, most of whom can't even recite the ten commandments unless it is to selectively judge people who they are prejudiced against, as you have just done in your latest post. There are over five billion people who don't want anything to do with your religion and for good reason....

As I have posted before, the bible listed boastfulness as a sin and abomination far more often than a vague reference to "man lying with another man" in the context of prostitution, no less. But that obviously doesn't matter to you, because like the Christian slave-owners of the past 18 centuries after "Christ" you want to pick and choose your sins to fit your biases and bigotry.

Your posts have been very telling so far, for they display little visible respect for reality, nor science nor give the slightest homage to opposing views, which you continually do not address other than with more circular logic. An example of circular logic:

"God is the author of the bible".

Who says so?

"The men in the bible."

I've studied the Sociology of religion and Christianity for years and it's unfortunate that me, a lowly atheist, can often cite the bible better than most "Christians" I know.

The Old and New testaments were written and rewritten dozens of times and can be attributed to at least 23 authors. What gives you the boastful certainty that your "logic" is so correct and you know the mind and logic of god ? Such disrespect for a god who is the only o"all-knowing" would be another abomination.

Behold, the silliness of your bible of which you obviously base your prejudices and world view upon, in it's own words and not out of context (These are of course copied and pasted from my previous posts in other forums):


1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded
Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden
Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
25. Lying approved and sanctioned
Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden
Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8
26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
Deut 23:7


Historical Facts

58. Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25,26,27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2:18,19
59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
Gen 8:22
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6
60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Ex 8:15


etc., etc. Want more? I can easily list dozens more in the bible's OWN words, with citations.

quote:

Originally posted by system-7 I will take you up on that offer.. Lets see if thomas Paine and Richard Dawkins ideas can hold up for 2000 years.

While you are at it why don't you read:

Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists By Dan Barker

Why I Became an Atheist: A Former Preacher Rejects Christianity By John W. Loftus

Atheist Universe: The Thinking Person's Answer to Christian Fundamentalism By David Mills

God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist By Victor J. Stenger

Irreligion: A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don't Add Up By John Allen Paulos

The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design By Richard Dawkins.


Most of these authors either hold a PhD. in mathematics or the sciences, or are a member of MENSA and/or The Prometheus Society. If you do not know what MENSA or The Prometheus Society is then...well, never mind. My point is to read and experience original ideas.


(Yes, I own all of these books and yes I have read them all.)

Why Real Logic Compels me NOT to be a Christian

Why REAL logic compels me not to be a "Christian"..in the Bible's own words.....

"Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword." - Jesus
- Matthew 10:34

"All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." - Jesus
- Matthew 26:52

There goes our army, Karl rove, George Bush, Bill O'Reilly, Fox "news" and company along with millions of "Christians" who have been "praying" to win the Iraqi War (to no avail) for the past several years - a war which they started.

"For those who pray in my name shall have their prayers granted." - Jesus

Tell that to the thousands of parents at infant cancer wards who have had their babies pass away despite their most sincere prayers. Or to the faithful church goers who had their churches blown asunder by tornadoes while in them - praying.



For wrath killeth the foolish man...
- Job 5:2

... let not the sun go down on your wrath.
- Ephesians 4:26



And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which
is in heaven.
- John 3:13

... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
- 2 Kings 2:11



If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
- John 5:31

I am one that bear witness of myself...
- John 8:18
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]



A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children...
- Proverbs 13:22

Sell that ye have and give alms...
- Luke 12:33



Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house...
- Psalms 112:1-3

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24



I and my father are one.
- John 10:30

... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
- John 14:28
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]



Thou shalt not kill
- Exodus 20:13

Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his
side... and slay every man his brother.
- Exodus 32:27

Sick set of ethics there - and in these modern times, there are still people like System-7 who dare to quote the bible as their source of "logic" and ethics? It's sad that society is still yet in need of so much self-evolution.

P.S. I know the bible is filled with a lot of good things and kindly fairy tales as well, but the 5 billion+ atheists to Christianity, including many North Americans, Europeans, Native Americans, Eastern Indians and Asians have not only survived without the hypocrisy inherent in *much* (not all) of Christianity, but have prospered. Some of the most loving, giving and loyal families I have met live in Thailand and Guam (I grew up there) and none of them ever had to pick up a bible to learn such ethics. The nurturing instinct is within us, and *most* (not all) people are basically good, even without religion. If we weren't, none of us would be here and the Greeks and Iron-age humans would have died off long ago.

Boycott: List of Supporters of Prop 8

Here is a list of businesses who have endorsed / donated to Yes on 8. Whenever there's an alternative choice of where to do business, I will make sure to go somewhere else. I hope to find a similar list of companies that donated to No on 8, and will support them.

The following companies either endorsed or donated Yes on 8, helping to further discrimination and taking away constitutional rights from California citizens:

http://www.afterellen.com/node/39787

Ag West Distributing Co

Alpasina Insurance Services
Unable to locate info

American Build & Design, Inc

American Focus
Alhambra, CA


Automated Environments

Bambrick & Associates
Anaheim, CA

Best Tire and Automotive
San Pedro, CA

Bluefields Creative

Rich Bott-Bott Radio Network
Fresno/Modesto/Merced 99.9FM

Bradley L. Quick Insurance Agency
Escondido, CA

Briden Wilson Farm
Arbuckle, CA

Buildex Inc.
Granite Bay, CA

Busy Little Bee Daycare
San Jose, CA

CC Layne & Sons Inc
Unable to locate info

Carter Construction Company (Texas based)

Chiropractic Family Health Center
El Cajon, CA

Classic Clean, Inc.
Los Gatos, CA

Community West Mortgage
Scotts Valley, CA

Cornerstone Custom Construction
Unable to locate info

Cottonwood Quilting
Silverado,CA

Culp Diversified Properties
Red Bluff, CA

Curry Copy Center of Hemet

Cyrus Tree Service

David Smalley MD
Riverside, CA

Design Electric
Pleasanton, CA

Direct to You Mobile Dentistry
Murrieta, CA

Duncan's Auto Sales
Corning, CA

Ebmeyer Charter and Tour

EL VOCERO MAGAZINE
Salinas, CA

Environmental Geology Services

Esthetique Dental Center
Auburn, CA

Everything4Mom.com (Wisconsin based)

Fahillion Technology Consultants
San Luis Obispo, CA

Fetal Diagnostic Center
Mission Viejo, CA

The Fire & Cop Shop
Moreno Valley, CA

First Data Cardservice
Laguna Beach, CA

First Experiences Preschool
Bakersfield, CA

First Security Home Loans
Poway, CA

GFBB Benefits and Insurance
Roseville, CA

Golden Door Press
Santa Rosa, CA

Guy Strohmeiers Auto Center
Lakeport, CA

Harmonious Scents

Haws, Record & Magnusson, Attorneys at Law
Santa Barbara, CA


Home Instead Senior Care

Honda Car Repair
Tracy, CA

I Wannabe Costumes
West Sacramento, CA

Images by Aida
Sherman Oaks, CA

inetMatrix
Riverside, CA
Even ads on website for protect marriage

Inspired Stylus Writing and Copyediting
affiliated with iNetMatrix
Riverside, CA

Jason's Glass Tint
San Clemente, CA

Justin A. March Associates
El Cajon, CA

Kerr Real Estate Advisors
Fair Oaks, CA

Knapp Financial
Calabasas, CA

Lampstand Studios (Colorado based)

Land Resource Investments (Nevada based)

The Law Office of H. Craig Miller
Roseville, CA

Law Offices of Kimber B. Goddard
Sacramento, CA

Lewis Appliance Repair and Installation
Los Banos, CA

Lion's Roar Media
Victorville, CA

Maximum Marketing Inc
Bakersfield, CA

MJ Baxter Drilling Company
El Cajon, CA
May be affliliated with M.J.B. Floral Services

MOTE Inc
San Diego, CA

Napa Valley Engraving
Napa, CA

NordalAppraisal.com
Encinitas, CA

NorthBay Neonatology Associates

Pacific Coast Auto Body
San Diego, CA

PaperPack, Inc. (Georgia based)

Quietcool, inc
Winchester, CA

RCS Door Service
Salida, CA

Reimer's Wholesale Nursery
Bakersfield, CA

Reliable Referrals LLC (Wisconsin based)

Resources For Continuing Education, Inc
BRYN MAWR CA

RF Sweet & Associates Real Estate
Palm Desert, CA

Rickert Cabinetry
Silverado,CA

Roche Oil, Inc
Tulare, CA

Rockingham Asset Management
Los Angeles, California

RPM Events, Inc.
San Luis Rey, Ca

The Santa Clara Valley Health & Hospital System (SCVHHS) http://www.sccgov.org/portal/site/hhs/
Santa Clara, CA

Schindler & Schindler Inc
Fountain Valley, CA

Scott McDonald & Assoc.
Scott McDonald is former Marketing Manager for the California D. A.

Senior Helper's
Fresno, CA

Sheppard & Associates Insurance Agency
Citrus Heights, CA

Sibling Systems
Roseville, CA

Splash! Designworks (Delaware based)
Dover, Delaware

Stubblefield Family Chiropractic
Yuba City, CA

Superior Notary, LLC
Rocklin, CA

Tri-Valley Propac, Inc
Danville, CA

Tropical Sands Vacations
Corona, CA

Valencia Tax Service
SAN YSIDRO, CA

Warren Photography
Victorville, CA

The Wellness Advantage (Arizona based)
Scottsdale, AZ

West Coast Commercial Mortgage, Inc
Huntington Beach, CA

White Diamond Jewelers
Canoga Park, CA

WishIHadThat.com
Bakersfield, California

The this is not complete, there were a few that I could find no info on, you can see the list in full at www.protectmarriage.com.

Here are some companies that endorsed / donated to No on Prop 8, helping to stop discrimination and promote equal rights for all:

http://www.noonprop8.com/articles/2...n-newspaper-ad/

Newspapers

* Alameda Times Star � �No on 8�
* Asian Week � �No on Prop 8�
* Bakersfield Californian � �Vote NO on Prop 8�
* Bohemian � �Proposition 8 eliminates rights�
* California Aggie � �No on Prop 8�
* Chico Enterprise Record � �Flawed measure should be rejected�
* Chico News and Review � �How is marriage protected by intimidating gay and lesbian people?�
* City on a Hill Press � �All Americans deserve freedom and fairness: NO on 8�
* Contra Costa Times � �Reject Proposition 8�
* Daily Californian � �No on Prop 8�
* Daily Bruin � �Marriage should be available to everyone�
* Daily Iowan � �California should Vote NO to marriage inequality�
* Daily Nexus � �Don�t Hate: Vote No on 8�
* Eureka Times-Standard � �Civil rights cannot and should not be decided at the ballot box: Vote NO on 8�
* Fremont Argus � �No on 8�
* Fresno Bee � �Constitution shouldn�t be used to restrict rights of same-sex couples�
* Hayward Daily Review � �No on 8�
* Inland Valley Daily Bulletin � �Apply marriage rules equally�
* Jewish Journal � �Religious �No!� to Proposition 8�
* La Opini�n � �Prop 8: An Unnecessary Proposal�
* La Prensa San Diego � �We urge you to vote NO on Prop 8�
* Long Beach Press-Telegram � �No on 8: The State has no business telling people who can get married�
* Los Angeles City Watch � �Prop 8: Real people losing fundamental rights�
* Los Angeles Daily News � �Reject Proposition 8. California is better than that.�
* Los Angeles Downtown News � �Gays and lesbians deserve the right to marriage�
* Los Angeles Times � �Reneging on a Right�
* Marin Independent Journal � �Prop 8 eliminates the right of same sex couples to marry: Vote No�
* Marysville Appeal Democrat � �It is only fair that we afford equal protection to all�
* Merced Sun Star � �Vote No on Prop 8�
* Milpitas Post � �This measure deserves a No vote�
* Monterey Herald � �Same-sex marriages now are causing no problems�
* New York Times � �Preserving California�s Constitution�
* Napa Valley Register � �Vote No on Proposition 8�
* Oakland Tribune � �Prop 8 would reduce basic human rights�
* OC Register � �Revoking people�s right to marry has no place in California�s Constitution�
* Palm Springs Desert Sun � �Reject the rejection of same-sex marriage�
* Redding Record Searchlight � �Same sex vows cause no harm to our families�
* Riverside Press Enterprise � �No on 8�
* Sacramento Bee � �Californians should reject the call to exclude some people from marriage�
* Sacramento News and Review � �We Strongly Oppose Prop 8�
* San Diego City Beat � �The Prop 8 campaign is a big, rank pile of dung�
* San Diego Union Tribune � �No on Prop 8�
* San Francisco Bay Guardian � �Proposition 8, ban on same-sex marriage, NO NO NO�
* San Francisco Business Journal � �Proposition 8�s defeat would be good for business�
* San Francisco Chronicle � �Californians should reject proposition 8�
* San Francisco Examiner � Why is Prop 8 even on the ballot?
* San Gabriel Valley Tribune � �Vote No on Prop 8�
* San Jose Mercury News � �Initiative against gay marriage must be defeated�
* San Mateo County Times � �No on 8�
* Santa Barbara Independent � �Prop 8 eliminates rights�
* Santa Barbara News-Press � �No to Prop 8�
* Santa Cruz Metro � �No on 8�
* Santa Cruz Sentinel � �No on 8: Equal treatment under the law�
* Santa Monica Mirror � �This is a No-Brainer: NO on Prop 8�
* Santa Rosa Press Democrat � �Reneging on marriage rights makes second-class citizens�
* Silicon Valley Metro � �No on 8�
* Solano Tempest � �Prop. 8 discriminates unfairly�
* Sonoma Index-Tribune � �Proposition 8 is movement in the wrong direction�
* Stanford Daily � �Vote No on Prop 8�
* Stockton Record � �We must not write discrimination into the California Constitution�
* Torrance Daily Breeze � �The state is better off not redefining the moral issues related to marriage: No on 8�
* Tracey Press � �We don�t like taking away civil rights, vote no on Proposition 8�
* Tri Valley Herald � �No on 8�
* Vacaville Reporter � �Protect equal rights: Vote NO on Prop 8�
* Ventura County Star � �Proposition 8 denies rights, �No� vote stands for fairness�
* Victorville Daily Press � �It is only fair that it afford equal protection to all�
* Visalia Times-Delta � �Prop 8 takes from rights of others�
* Ukiah Daily Journal � �Prop 8 and its proponents are wrong�
* Whittier Daily � �No on Prop 8� News


Back to top
Businesses

* PG&E
* Levi Strauss & Co.
* Google
* Amgen
* Sweet
* Morgan Hotel Group
* San Francisco Chamber of Commerce
* California Black Chamber of Commerce
* San Luis Obispo Chamber of Commerce
* Valley Industry and Commerce Association
* Oakland Metropolitan Chamber of Commerce
* Apple Inc.
* Clear Channel
* Salesforce.com


Silicon Valley Leaders Say NO on Proposition 8 (Updated Thursday, Oct 30, 2008)
(titles are for identification purposes only) http://www.noonprop8.com/articles/2...n-newspaper-ad/

HONORARY CO-CHAIRS:
# Sergey Brin, Founder, Google, Inc.
# Bill Campbell, Chairman, Intuit Inc.
# David Filo, Founder, Yahoo! Inc.
# Chuck Geschke, Founder & Chairman, Adobe Systems, Inc.
# John Morgridge, Former CEO & Chairman, Cisco Systems, Inc.
# Pierre Omidyar, Founder and Chairman, eBay Inc., Founding Partner, Omidyar Network
# Sheryl Sandberg, COO, Facebook
# Eric Schmidt, CEO, Google, Inc.
# Jerry Yang, Founder, Yahoo! Inc.

LEADERS (partial list):

* Deborah Barber, Principal, Jackson Hole Group
* John Battelle, Chairman & CEO, Federated Media
* Marc Benioff,CEO, Salesforce.com
* Larry Birenbaum, Former Senior Vice President, Cisco Systems, Inc.
* Lorna Borenstein, President, Move, Inc.
* Larry Brilliant, Executive Director, Google.org
* Owen Byrd, President, Byrd Development
* John Chisholm, Chairman & CEO, CustomerSat, Inc.
* Barry Cinnamon, CEO, Akeena Solar
* Tod Cohen, Vice President and Deputy General Council, Government Relations, eBay Inc.
* LaDoris Cordell, Administrator, Stanford University
* Sue Decker, President, Yahoo! Inc.
* Jack Dorsey, Chairman, Twitter
* David Drummond, SVP, Corporate Development & Chief Legal Officer, Google, Inc.
* Donna Dubinsky, CEO, Numenta, Inc.
* Alan Eustace, SVP, Engineering and Research, Google, Inc.
* Naomi Fine, President & CEO, Pro-Tec Data, Inc.
* Rachel Glaser COO/CFO, Reunion.com
* Carl Guardino, President & CEO, Silicon Valley Leadership Group
* Andre Haddad, CEO, Shopping.com
* Jeff Hawkins, co-Founder Palm, Handspring, and Numenta
* David Karnstedt, Investor
* Scott Kaspick, Managing Director, Kaspick & Co.
* Steve Kirsch, Serial Entrepreneur
* John Koza, CEO, Third Millennium
* Ross LaJeunesse, Head of State Policy Western US, Google, Inc.
* Gary Lauder, Managing Partner, Lauder Partners Venture Capital
* Laura Lauder, General Partner, Lauder Partners Venture Capital
* Len Lehman, Investor
* Dan�l Lewin, Corporate Vice President, Microsoft Corporation
* John Luongo, Former CEO, Vantive Corporation
* Roger McNamee, Managing Director & co-Founder, Elevation Partners
* Ken McNeely, President, AT&T California
* Michael Moritz, Partner, Sequoia Capital
* Susan Packard Orr, CEO, Telosa Software, Inc.
* Randy Pond, Executive Vice President, Cisco Systems, Inc.
* Amy Rao, Founder & CEO, Integrated Archive Systems
* Jana Rich, Managing Director, Russell Reynolds
* Miriam Rivera, Former Vice President and Deputy General Counsel, Google, Inc.
* John Roos, CEO, Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati
* Jonathan Rosenberg, SVP, Product Management, Google, Inc.
* Dan Rosensweig, Investor
* Dan Rubin, Partner, Alloy Ventures
* Hilary Schneider, Executive Vice President US Region, Yahoo! Inc.
* Len Shustek, Chairman, Computer History Museum
* Jeff Skoll, Former President, eBay Inc.
* Stephanie Tilenius, SVP, eBay North America
* Joy Weiss, President & CEO, Dust Networks
* Steve Westly, former California State Controller & former SVP eBay Inc.
* Evan Williams, CEO, Twitter



Back to top
Civil Rights Organizations

* ACLU Northern California
* ACLU of San Diego and Imperial Counties
* ACLU Santa Barbara Chapter
* ACLU of Southern California
* Anti-Defamation League Southern California
* Asian Pacific Islander (API) Equality
* Asian Pacific American Legal Center of Southern California
* Chinese for Affirmative Action (CAA)
* California NAACP
* Equality California
* Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD)
* Greater Sacramento Urban League
* Japanese American Citizens League
* Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF)
* NAACP � Oakland Branch
* Organization of Chinese Americans � Orange County Chapter
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Labor Organizations

* AFSCME California PEOPLE
* California Federation of Teachers
* California Labor Federation
* California Nurses Association
* California Teachers Association
* Communication Workers of America District 9
* San Francisco Deputy Sheriffs� Association
* Screen Actors Guild Hollywood Division
* SEIU California State Council
* United Farm Workers
* UNITE HERE!
* United Teachers of Los Angeles
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Faith Based Organizations

* Affirming Spirits of the First Congregational United Church of Christ
* All Saints Episcopal Church
* Altadena Community Church United Church of Christ
* Apple Seed Friends Meeting
* Berkeley Fellowship Unitarian Universalists
* Beth Chayim Chadashim (BCC)
* Beth El Congregation
* Bloom in the Desert Ministries UCC/Methodist
* Board of Rabbis of Southern California
* Board of Trustees, Unitarian Universalist Church of Ventura
* California Church IMPACT
* California-Nevada Chapter of the Methodist Federation for Social Action (MFSA)
* Call to Action / USA
* Catholic Democrats of California
* California Faith for Equality
* Christ Chapel Metropolitan Community Church
* Church of the Foothills
* Claremont United Methodist Church
* Clergy and Laity for Economic Justice Santa Barbara
* Clergy United, Inc.
* College Community Congregational Church, UCC
* Community Church of Atascadero, UCC
* Conejo Valley Unitarian Universalist Fellowship
* Congregation Beth Am
* Congregation Bet Haverim
* Congregation Beth El
* Congregation Church of Belmont UCC
* Congregation Kol Ami
* Council of Churches of Santa Clara County
* The Ecumenical Catholic Church
* Elk Grove United Methodist Church
* The Episcopal Diocese of California
* Fair Oaks United Methodist Church
* First Congregational Church, Riverside
* First Congregational United Church of Christ
* First Presbyterian Church of Palo Alto
* First Unitarian-Universalist Church of San Diego
* Golden Gate Association of the Northern California Nevada Conference of the United Church of Christ
* Hollywood Lutheran Church
* Immanuel Presbyterian Church
* Institute for Judaism and Sexual Orientation
* Interfaith Clergy Coalition
* Irvine United Congregational Church, UCC
* Jewish Community Relations Council SF, the Peninsula, Marin, Sonoma, Alameda and Contra Costa Counties
* Jewish Family Service of Los Angeles
* LGBTQI Interfaith Clergy Council of Los Angeles
* Lutherans Concerned � Los Angeles
* Lutherans Concerned � North America
* Metropolitan Community Church of the Coachella Valley
* Metropolitan Community Church Los Angeles
* Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco
* Metropolitan Community Church � Region 6
* Metropolitan Community Church in the Valley
* Ministry in Action Commission, St. Mark�s United Methodist Church
* Mira Vista United Church of Christ
* Mission Hills United Church of Christ
* Mormons for Marriage
* Mount Diablo Unitarian Universalist Church
* Northern California Nevada Conference United Church of Christ
* Orange Coast Unitarian Universalist Church
* Pacific Association of Reform Rabbis
* Pacific Central District of the Unitarian Universalist Association
* Pacific School of Religion
* Pacific Southwest District, Unitarian Universalist Association
* Palomar Unitarian Universalist Fellowship
* Pilgrim United Church of Christ of Carlsbad
* Progressive Jewish Alliance
* Redlands United Church of Christ
* Region One Metropolitan Community Church
* Sacramento Call to Action
* Saint Aidan�s Episcopal Church
* Saint Paul Lutheran Church
* San Marino Congressional UCC
* Sepulveda Unitarian Universalist Society
* Social Justice Committee, Unitarian Society of Santa Barbara
* Starr King School for the Ministry
* Starr King Unitarian Universalist Church
* St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church
* St. John�s Presbyterian Church
* St. Luke�s Episcopal Church
* St. Matthew�s Lutheran Church
* Stone Church of Willow Glen
* Temple Adat Shalom
* Temple Isaiah
* The Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies in Religion
* The Episcopal Church of St. John the Evangelist
* The Metropolitan Community Church of San Diego
* The Southern California Nevada Conference of the United Church of Christ
* The Workmen�s Circle � Arbeter Ring
* Union for Reform Judaism � Pacific Southwest Council
* Union for Reform Judaism � Pacific Central West Council
* Unitarian Universalist Church in Anaheim
* Unitarian Universalist Church of Berkeley
* Unitarian Universalist Church of Davis
* Unitarian Universalist Church of Fresno
* Unitarian Universalist Church of Long Beach
* Unitarian Universalist Church of Palo Alto
* Unitarian Universalist Church of Santa Monica
* Unitarian Universalist Church of Studio City
* Unitarian Universalist Church of Ventura
* Unitarian Universalist Community of the Mountains
* Unitarian Universalist Community Church � Sacramento
* Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Marin
* Unitarian Universalist Congregation, Santa Rosa
* Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Los Gatos
* Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of San Dieguito
* Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of San Louis Obispo County, Board of Trustees
* Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Stanislaus County
* Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Tuolmne County
* Unitarian Universalist Fellowship of Visalia
* Unitarian Universalist Laguna Beach � Board of Trustees
* Unitarian Universalist Legislative Ministry Action Network
* Unitarian Universalist Legislative Ministry, CA
* Unitarian Universalist of Santa Clarita Valley
* Unitarian Universalist Society of Sacramento
* United Methodist Church of Davis
* Valley Ministries MCC
* WeHoChurch
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Community Based Organizations

* AIDS Emergency Fund
* API Equality LA
* API Equality SF
* Asian American Bar Association of the Greater Bay Area
* Asian Communities for Reproductive Justice
* Asian and Pacific Islander Family Pride
* Bay Area Lawyers for Individual Freedom
* Billy DeFrank Lesbian & Gay Community Center � San Jose
* Black AIDS Institute
* Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies in Religion and Ministry
* Chinese Rainbow Association
* Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights of LA (CHIRLA)
* ElderHelp of San Diego/Aging As Ourselves
* Ella Baker Center for Human Rights
* Equality Federation
* Family Equality Council
* Freemont Alliance for a Hate-Free Community
* Gay and Lesbian Alliance of the Central Coast (GALA)
* Humanist Society of Santa Barbara
* Jordan/Rustin Coalition
* Justice Matters
* Latino Coalition for Justice � LA
* Los Angeles County Bar Association
* Los Angeles County Psychological Association
* L.A. Gay & Lesbian Center
* Lesbian and Gay Lawyers Association of Los Angeles
* Mexican American Concilio of Yolo County
* National Council of Jewish Women Los Angeles
* Network on Religion and Justice for Asian and Pacific Islander LGBT
* Pacific Center
* Pacific Pride Center � Santa Barbara
* Sacramento Gay and Lesbian Center
* San Diego LGBT Community Center
* San Diego LGBT Pride
* San Diego Psychological Association
* San Francisco AIDS Foundation
* San Francisco Human Services Network
* San Francisco Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Community Center
* Santa Barbara County Psychological Association
* Sonoma County Pride Committee
* Sonoma State University Academic Senate
* South Asian Bar Association of Northern California
* South Bay LGBT Center
* Southern California HIV Advocacy Coalition (SCHAC)
* Southern California Lambda Medical Association
* Southern California Psychiatric Society
* Stanislaus PRIDE Center
* The Center Advocacy Project San Diego
* The One Love Campaign
* Trans Equality
* USC Medical Gay and Lesbian Organization (USC MedGLO) LA
* Ventura County Rainbow Alliance
* The Wall Las Memorias
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Statewide Organizations

* Bienestar
* California Academy of Family Physicians
* California American Academy of Pediatrics, California
* California Faculty Association
* California Minority Counsel Program
* California National Organization for Women (NOW)
* California Psychiatric Association
* California Psychological Association
* Gay-Straight Alliance Network
* Lambda Legal
* Latino Issues Forum
* League of Women Voters of California
* Liberty Hill Foundation
* National Association of Social Workers, CA Chapter
* National Council of Jewish Women California
* Pacific Coast College Health Association
* Women�s Foundation of California
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National Organizations

* American Jewish Committee Western Region
* American Medical Student Association
* Association of Counseling Center Training Agencies
* Children of Lesbian and Gays Everywhere
* Feminist Majority Foundation
* Gray Panthers
* Green For All
* Hispanic National Bar Association
* Human Rights Campaign
* Human Rights Watch
* Marriage Equality USA
* Mexican American Bar Association
* National Asian Pacific American Bar Association
* National Black Justice Coalition
* National Black Police Association
* National Center for Lesbian Rights
* National Congress of Black Women
* National Council of Jewish Women
* National Gay and Lesbian Task Force
* Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PLAG)
* People for the American Way
* Zuna Institute
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Political Groups and Organizations

* Bayard Rustin LGBT Coalition PAC
* Black American Political Association of California
* California Democratic Party
* California Young Democrats
* Courage Campaign
* Del Mar/Carmel Valley Democratic Club
* Democracy for America
* Democratic Alliance for Action
* Democratic Club of San Jose State University
* Democratic Women�s Forum of San Francisco
* Democrats for Israel Los Angeles
* Democrats of Rossmoor
* Elections Committee of the County of Orange-ECCO
* Escondido Democratic Club
* Foothill Community Democrats
* Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund
* Green Party
* Honor PAC
* Irish American Democratic Club
* Lake County Democratic Club
* Libertarian Party of California
* Log Cabin Republicans California
* Los Angeles African American Women Political Action Committee
* Los Angeles County Democratic Party
* NARAL Pro Choice California Privacy PAC
* Northeast Democratic Club
* Owens River Democratic Club
* Planned Parenthood Action Fund
* Potrero Hill Democratic Club
* Poway Democratic Club
* Progressive Democrats of America, Monterey County
* Rancho North Coast Democratic Club
* San Diego Democratic Women�s Club
* San Mateo County Democracy for America
* Santee Democratic Club
* Silicon Valley Young Democrats
* Stonewall Democrats California
* Stonewall Democrats of Ventura County
* Stonewall Young Democrats
* The Lake County Stonewall Democratic Club
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Elected Officials

* United States Senator Barbara Boxer
* United States Senator Dianne Feinstein
* United States Representative Howard Berman
* United States Representative Lois Capps
* United States Representative Susan Davis
* United States Representative Mike Honda
* United States Representative Barbara Lee
* United States Representative Lucille Roybal-Allard
* United States Representative Linda Sanchez
* United States Representative Adam B. Schiff
* United States Representative Brad Sherman
* United States Representative Hilda L. Solis
* United States Representative Jackie Speier
* United States Representative Pete Stark
* United States Representative Ellen Tauscher
* United States Representative Mike Thompson
* United States Representative Henry Waxman
* United States Representative Lynn Woolsey
* California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
* California Lt. Governor John Garamendi
* California State Controller John Chiang
* California State Board of Equalization Chair Judy Chu
* California State Board of Equalization Vice Chair Betty T. Yee
* California State Senate President pro Tempore Don Perata
* California State Senate Majority Leader Gloria Romero
* California State Senator Ron Calderon
* California State Senator Gilbert Cedillo
* California State Senator Ellen Corbett
* California State Senator Lou Correa
* California State Senator Denis Moreno Ducheny
* California State Senator Sheila Kuehl
* California State Senator Carole Migden
* California State Senator Jenny Oropeza
* California State Senator Alex Padilla
* California State Senator Mark Ridley-Thomas
* California State Senator Jack Scott
* California State Senator Patricia Wiggins
* California Sate Senator Leland Yee
* California State Senator Elaine Alquist
* California State Senator Christine Kehoe
* California State Senator Alan Lowenthal
* California State Senator Darrell Steinberg
* California State Senator Tom Torlakson

* California Assembly Speaker Karen Bass
* California Speaker Emeritus Fabian Nu�ez
* California Assembly Majority Leader Alberto Torrico
* California Assembly Assistant Majority Leader Kevin de Leon
* California Assembly Majority Whip Fiona Ma
* California Assembly Speaker pro Tempore Sally Lieber
* California Assemblymember Jim Beall
* California Assemblymember Patty Berg
* California Assemblymember Julia Brownley
* California Assemblymember Anna Caballero
* California Assemblymember Charles Calderon
* California Assemblymember Joe Coto
* California Assemblymember Mike Davis
* California Assemblymember Mark DeSaulnier
* California Assemblymember Mervyn Dymally
* California Assemblymember Mike Eng
* California Assemblymember Noreen Evans
* California Assemblymember Mike Feuer
* California Assemblymember Felipe Fuentes
* California Assemblymember Warren Furutani
* California Assemblymember Loni Hancock
* California Assemblymember Mary Hayashi
* California Assemblymember Ed Hernandez
* California Assemblymember Jared Huffman
* California Assemblymember Dave Jones
* California Assemblymember Betty Karnette
* California Assemblymember Paul Krekorian
* California Assemblymember John Laird
* California Assemblymember Mark Leno
* California Assemblymember Lloyd Levine
* California Assemblymember Ted Liu
* California Assemblymember Tony Mendoza
* California Assemblymember Gene Mullin
* California Assemblymember Pedro Nava
* California Assemblymember Fabian Nunez
* California Assemblymember Anthony Portantino
* California Assemblymember Curren Price, Jr.
* California Assemblymember Ira Ruskin
* California Assemblymember Mary Salas
* California Assemblymember Lori Saldana
* California Assemblymember Sandre Swanson
* California Assemblymember Lois Wolk

* County of Calaveras Supervisor Chair Steve Wilensky
* County of Los Angeles Supervisor Yvonne B. Burke
* County of Los Angeles Supervisor Gloria Molina
* County of Los Angeles Supervisor
* County of Marin Supervisor Susan L. Adams, Ph.D
* County of Marin Supervisor Charles McGlasman
* County of Monterey Supervisor Elect Jane Parker
* County of Monterey Supervisor Dave Potter
* County of Sacramento Supervisor Roger Dickenson
* City and County of San Francisco Supervisor Michela Alioto-Pier
* City and County of San Francisco Supervisor Tom Ammiano
* City and County of San Francisco Supervisor Bevan Dufty
* City and County of San Francisco Supervisor Sophie Maxwell
* County of San Luis Obispo Supervisor Elect Adam Hill
* County of Santa Barbara Supervisor Salud O. Carbajal
* County of Yolo Clerk/Recorder Freddie Oakley
* County of Yolo Supervisor Elect Jim Prozenza
* County of Yolo Supervisor Helen Thomson
* County of Yolo Supervisor Mariko Yamada

* City of Berkeley Mayor Tom Bates
* City of Davis Mayor Ruth Asmundson
* City of Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums
* City of Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa
* City and County of San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom
* City of Sacramento Mayor Heather Fargo
* City of San Diego Mayor Jerry Sanders

* County of Los Angeles Sheriff Lee Baca
* City of Los Angeles City Attorney Rocky Delgadillo
* City and County of San Francisco Treasurer Jose Cisneros
* City and County of San Francisco City Attorney Dennis Herrera
* City and County of San Francisco Sheriff Michael Hennessey
* County of Yolo Sheriff Ed Prieto
* County of Humboldt District Attorney Paul V. Gallegos

* City of Avalon Councilmember Michael Ponce
* City of Clearlake Councilmember Joyce Overton
* City of Davis Councilmember Sue Greenwald
* City of Davis Lamar Heystek
* City of Davis Councilmember Don Saylor
* City of Davis Councilmember Stephen Souza
* City of Laguna Beach Councilmember Jane Egly
* City of Long Beach Councilmember Bonnie Lowenthal
* City of Long Beach Councilmember Tonia Reyes Uranga
* City of Los Angeles City Council President Eric Garcetti
* City of Los Angeles Councilmember Jose Huizar
* City of Milpitas Councilmember Armando Gomez
* City of Norwalk Councilmember Jesse M. Luera
* City of Sacramento Councilmember Rob Fong
* City of Sacramento Councilmember Lauren Hammond
* City of Sacramento Councilmember Kevin McCarty
* City of Sacramento Ray Tretheway
* City of Sacramento Vice Mayor Steve Cohn
* City of San Diego Councilmember Toni Atkins
* City of San Diego Councilmember Jim Madaffer
* City of Santa Ana Councilmember Michele Martinez
* City of Santa Barbara Councilmember Roger Horton
* City of Vallejo Councilmember Michael Wilson
* West Covina Mayor Pro-Tem Roger Hernandez
* City of West Hollywood Mayor Jeffrey Prang
* City of West Hollywood Mayor Pro Tem Abbe Land
* City of West Hollywood Councilmember John J. Duran
* City of Woodland Councilmember Martie Dote

* Berkeley PTA Council President Cathryn Bruno
* City College of San Francisco Trustee Milton Marks
* Davis Joint Unified School Board President Sheila Allen
* Davis Joint Unified School Board Member Richard Harris
* Duarte Board of Education Vice-President Francisco Figueroa
* Garvey School District Board Member Henry Lo
* Long Beach City College Board Trustee Roberto Uranga
* Los Angeles Unified School District Board of Education President Monica Garcia
* Los Angeles Unified School District Board of Education Member Tamar Galatzan
* Los Angeles Unified School District Board of Education Member Julie Korenstein
* Los Angeles Unified School District Board of Education Member Dr. Richard A. Vladovic
* Lynwood School Board Member Jos� Luis Solache
* Montebello School Districts School Board Member David Vela
* Peralta Community College District Trustee Abel J. Guill�n
* San Francisco Board of Education Vice-President Kim-Shree Maufas
* San Francisco Board of Education Member Hydra Mendoza
* San Francisco Board of Education Member Norman Yee
* San Leandro Unified School District Trustee Mike Katz-Larabe
* Sonoma Valley Unified School District School Board Trustee Nicole Abate Ducarroz
* Southwestern Community College District Governing Board Member Terri Valladolid
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The No on 8 campaign includes:

* ACLU of Northern California
* ACLU of San Diego and Imperial Counties
* ACLU of Southern California
* American Institute of Bisexuality
* Anti-Defamation League
* Asian & Pacific Islander Equality
* Asian & Pacific Islander Equality-Los Angeles
* Asian & Pacific Islander Equality-San Francisco
* Asian Pacific American Legal Center of Southern California
* Barbara Jordan / Bayard Rustin Coalition
* Bienestar
* Billy DeFrank Lesbian & Gay Community Center (San Jose)
* Black AIDS Institute
* CAA Chinese for Affirmative Action
* California Faith for Equality
* California NAACP
* California NOW
* The Center Advocacy Project (San Diego)
* Children of Lesbian and Gays Everywhere (COLAGE)
* Congregation Kol Ami
* Courage Campaign
* Equality California
* Family Equality Council
* Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD)
* Gay & Lesbian Victory Fund
* Gay And Lesbian Alliance of the Central Coast (GALA)
* GSA Network
* Human Rights Campaign
* Jordan Rustin Coalition
* L.A. Gay & Lesbian Center
* Lambda Legal
* Latino Coalition for Justice-Los Angeles
* Libertarian Party of California
* Liberty Hill Foundation
* Log Cabin Republicans-California
* Love, Honor, Cherish
* Marriage Equality USA
* Metropolitan Community Church of Los Angeles
* National Black Justice Coalition
* National Center for Lesbian Rights
* National Council of Jewish Women
* National Council of Jewish Women California
* National Council of Jewish Women Los Angeles
* National Gay and Lesbian Task Force
* Our Family Coalition
* Pacific Center
* Pacific Pride Center (Santa Barbara)
* PFLAG (Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)
* Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California
* Pride At Work
* The Progressive Project
* Republicans Against 8
* San Diego LGBT Community Center
* San Francisco LGBT Community Center
* Santa Cruz County No on 8
* Stonewall Democrats� California
* Trans Equality LA
* Unitarian Universalist Legislative Ministry Action Network
* The Wall Las Memorias
* Zuna Institute

I have read that some of these companies received certified letters from the Yes on 8 campaign that they would be publicly "outed" for their support (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2...487/666/641071.

That's extortion to me. Whenever I have the choice, I'll make sure to support and thank these businesses. Although I had my Mac, iPod and iPhone along with AT&T service before Prop 8 was defeated, I'm really happy to know that they care!

quote:

Originally posted by in2muzikk I have read that some of these companies received certified letters from the Yes on 8 campaign that they would be publicly "outed" for their support (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2...487/666/641071. That's extortion to me. Whenever I have the choice, I'll make sure to support and thank these businesses. Although I had my Mac, iPod and iPhone along with AT&T service before Prop 8 was defeated, I'm really happy to know that they care!

Your right. I posted this earlier in the thread.......


I understand and respect the views of some of the people whom oppose "no on prop 8." But it's this kind of stuff that upsets me. You want to talk about pushing your beliefs? Check this out. This is an e-mail from a committee member on the board for "No on Prop 8." They are actually doing this...or trying to at least.

________________________________________________________________________________________

If lies don't work, then maybe threats and blackmail will.

Yesterday, donors and supporters of Equality California began receiving threatening letters for their support of the statewide organizations efforts to protect LGBT youth and seniors from the "Yes on 8" campaign leadership.

These letters threatened to "expose" the donors listed on Equality California's website if they don't donate to the "Yes on 8" campaign and refrain from supporting LGBT equality in the future.

That's how low the other side is willing to go.

In any other circumstance I would characterize this despicable strategy as sad -- but we are in the fight of lives here in California.

So, will you stand with us? Will you make a donation to support equality?

Will you show that you won't be intimidated by their threats or lies?

Make a donation today to show the other side that we will not go back to the closet of inequality.

The letter, sent on their campaign letterhead, was signed by four members of the group's executive committee and suggests our donors withdraw their support for their own good. It demands an equivalent donation or else:

"Were you to elect not to donate comparably, it would be a clear indication that you are in opposition to traditional marriage. You would leave us no other reasonable assumption. The names of any companies...that choose not to donate...to ProtectMarriage.com...will be published.

...We will contact you shortly to discuss your contribution."

This outrageous attempt to raise money by using threats reveals their true agenda: permanently to harm the LGBT community, our organizations, our allies and our supporters.

Donate now and send a message to the other side -- We reject your effort to intimidate us, and we reject your shameful lies. We will fight to protect our freedom.

Please forward this message to everyone you know, and ask them to stand with us too.

We will not give in to these un-American ways of bullying and lies. We call on all Californians to reject these McCarthy-like tactics.

In solidarity,


Geoff Kors
Executive Committee Member
No On 8

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Reese "Were you to elect not to donate comparably, it would be a clear indication that you are in opposition to traditional marriage. You would leave us no other reasonable assumption. The names of any companies...that choose not to donate...to ProtectMarriage.com...will be published.

Have you seen this list anywhere? The endorsements page of ProtectMarriage.com only had a running tally of the votes for and against Prop 8. I'd like to see a comprehensive list of the companies that supported Yes on Prop 8 so that I can make informed choices about who to do business with!

Proposition 8 Was a Chance For "Christians" To LIve By the Golden Rule - They Failed.

A few more things I would like to add from the perspective of Psychology and Sociology:

In interviewing case studies on "homophobia" and hatred towards NONheterosexuals, including interviews with my own brothers and friends on the matter: When I question them about why they have little tolerance for people who are sexually different from themselves, the word "disgusting" often pops up.

But of course "disgust" comes only from our thoughts and our thinking about what others do in the privacy of their own sexual lives. We don't have to think about it. Either we have sovereignty over our own thoughts and feelings OR we give our power to others. That's emotionally and intellectually weak. Short of physical force, no one's exterior can effect our interior without our permission.

We have to remember that one of the reasons it was against the law for "blacks" to marry "whites" was because of hatred born in part from disgust, fear and prejudice. Human emotions are often far more complex then they seem, even to the point that many humans don't know exactly why they feel certain ways about certain things.

Even if a couple kisses in public, it's still a matter of whether we allow an exterior to effect our interior. There are a lot of "disgusting" things that Heterosexuals do in their bedrooms (I've read Hustler and Playboy most of my adult life)and some people might find obese or old people "kissing in public" to be disgusting. I find it beautiful - but either way I take responsibility for my feelings and I don't blame them on minorities just for being "different" than an often cruel majority.

As often the case, Keith Olbermann took the words right out of my mouth:

"This is about the human heart, and if that sounds corny, so be it.

If you voted for Proposition 8 or support those who did or the sentiment they expressed, I have some questions, because, truly, I do not understand. Why does this matter to you? What is it to you? In a time of impermanence and fly-by-night relationships, these people over here want the same chance at permanence and happiness that is your option. They don't want to deny you yours. They don't want to take anything away from you. They want what you want�a chance to be a little less alone in the world.

Only now you are saying to them�no. You can't have it on these terms. Maybe something similar. If they behave. If they don't cause too much trouble. You'll even give them all the same legal rights�even as you're taking away the legal right, which they already had. A world around them, still anchored in love and marriage, and you are saying, no, you can't marry. What if somebody passed a law that said you couldn't marry?

I keep hearing this term "re-defining" marriage. If this country hadn't re-defined marriage, black people still couldn't marry white people. Sixteen states had laws on the books which made that illegal in 1967. 1967.

The parents of the President-Elect of the United States couldn't have married in nearly one third of the states of the country their son grew up to lead. But it's worse than that. If this country had not "re-defined" marriage, some black people still couldn't marry black people. It is one of the most overlooked and cruelest parts of our sad story of slavery. Marriages were not legally recognized, if the people were slaves. Since slaves were property, they could not legally be husband and wife, or mother and child. Their marriage vows were different: not "Until Death, Do You Part," but "Until Death or Distance, Do You Part." Marriages among slaves were not legally recognized.

You know, just like marriages today in California are not legally recognized, if the people are gay.

And uncountable in our history are the number of men and women, forced by society into marrying the opposite sex, in sham marriages, or marriages of convenience, or just marriages of not knowing, centuries of men and women who have lived their lives in shame and unhappiness, and who have, through a lie to themselves or others, broken countless other lives, of spouses and children, all because we said a man couldn't marry another man, or a woman couldn't marry another woman. The sanctity of marriage.

How many marriages like that have there been and how on earth do they increase the "sanctity" of marriage rather than render the term, meaningless?

What is this, to you? Nobody is asking you to embrace their expression of love. But don't you, as human beings, have to embrace... that love? The world is barren enough.

It is stacked against love, and against hope, and against those very few and precious emotions that enable us to go forward. Your marriage only stands a 50-50 chance of lasting, no matter how much you feel and how hard you work.

And here are people overjoyed at the prospect of just that chance, and that work, just for the hope of having that feeling. With so much hate in the world, with so much meaningless division, and people pitted against people for no good reason, this is what your religion tells you to do? With your experience of life and this world and all its sadnesses, this is what your conscience tells you to do?

With your knowledge that life, with endless vigor, seems to tilt the playing field on which we all live, in favor of unhappiness and hate... this is what your heart tells you to do? You want to sanctify marriage? You want to honor your God and the universal love you believe he represents? Then Spread happiness�this tiny, symbolic, semantical grain of happiness�share it with all those who seek it. Quote me anything from your religious leader or book of choice telling you to stand against this. And then tell me how you can believe both that statement and another statement, another one which reads only "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

You are asked now, by your country, and perhaps by your creator, to stand on one side or another. You are asked now to stand, not on a question of politics, not on a question of religion, not on a question of gay or straight. You are asked now to stand, on a question of love. All you need do is stand, and let the tiny ember of love meet its own fate.

You don't have to help it, you don't have it applaud it, you don't have to fight for it. Just don't put it out. Just don't extinguish it. Because while it may at first look like that love is between two people you don't know and you don't understand and maybe you don't even want to know. It is, in fact, the ember of your love, for your fellow person just because this is the only world we have. And the other guy counts, too.

This is the second time in ten days I find myself concluding by turning to, of all things, the closing plea for mercy by Clarence Darrow in a murder trial.

But what he said, fits what is really at the heart of this:"

"I was reading last night of the aspiration of the old Persian poet, Omar-Khayyam," he told the judge. It appealed to me as the highest that I can vision. I wish it was in my heart, and I wish it was in the hearts of all: So I be written in the Book of Love; I do not care about that Book above. Erase my name, or write it as you will, So I be written in the Book of Love."
- Keith Olbermann, MSNBC

And to quote myself (because usually the only other person who will is my Mommy) -

"Throughout history, those majorities who beat down equality like a bunch of thugs with cavemen clubs, often find it's a matter of time before minorities band together with bigger clubs of truth and justice. If that was not so, civilization would not be here today."
- Chris Aable "What is Self-Evolution?"

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