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-- Jihad on Denmark - freedom of expression rears its ugly head once again...
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| Originally posted by LazFX What's to talk about?? It happened, millions were killed, what is to talk about. Unless you are one of those that think it did not happen... |
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| Originally posted by qussay ^ i am not saying either , but i stil should have the right to question it , since you are saying we must have unrestricted freedom of speech . People shouldnt go to jail because they question if it happened or not , freedom of speech should give them the right to say whatever they want .... ! |
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| Originally posted by St_Andrew Those countries where it is illegal to criticize "the official story" of the holocaust have serious issues with free speech, I don't think anyone here denies that. |
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| Originally posted by qussay ^ Isnt that the case almost everywhere in Europe , the US , Canada and Australia ? |
^^^ Specifically, it's not illegal to be a holocaust denier in Denmark - go tell your friends qussay, there's clearly a need for you guys to get educated about the rules abroad.
Anyway, as to the world outside Europe, I think that Israel is the only country with laws against holocaust denial? Anyone?
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| Originally posted by trancaholic ^^^ Specifically, it's not illegal to be a holocaust denier in Denmark - go tell your friends qussay, there's clearly a need for you guys to get educated about the rules abroad. Anyway, as to the world outside Europe, I think that Israel is the only country with laws against holocaust denial? Anyone? |
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| Originally posted by qussay ^ clearly , trancaholic , you and your friends are the ones in need of immediate education and exposure ! A couple of months ago , a man ( not sure about his nationality ) got sentenced to do some prison time because he stated publicaly back in the 80s , that in his opinion , the holocaust didnt not exist. Even after , that man spoke up and apologized and said , that back then , he wasnt well informed , and he changed his mind now, they still made him go to jail !!!!! I think that incident happened in australia . if you need more info on this topic , i will gladly point it out to you . I am also sure , that there are many european countries which follow the same " free speech " way of living ! |
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| Originally posted by trancaholic It happened in Austria, which besides the name, has little resemblance to Australia. As has already been pointed out, Austria is one of the countries with laws against holocaust denial, so I'm not really sure what to take home from your post? However, it does appear that even in this regard I'm better informed than you. Just for closure, though, assuming that your assertion made sense - and *Australia* had laws against holocaust denial - how would that relate to what's printed in an independent *danish* newspaper? Do you think that this paper is somehow deciding the laws in Austria/Australia? |
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| Originally posted by qussay Regardless of the country at hand here , which is like you ( o well informed one ) stated , is indeed austria . If you recall , the argument went towards the freedom of speech in europe as a whole , vs how the middle east should react towards the cartoon issue. Which leads us to free speech in countries where the issue of the holocaust cannot be questioned ! |
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| Originally posted by qussay A non-muslim , would never understand what Prophet Mohammad represents to a true muslim. It is far beyond anything you can comprehend. So , by mocking him , and illustrating him in newspaper cartoons , you have triggered rage in alot of people's hearts . So when certain countries react by boycotting dansih products , its their OWN way of representing freedom of choice , and speech . YOU of all people should understand that they DO have a choice, and its their right to do so ! So dont complain when sales of certain dansih companys plunged ! We never wanted this to begin with ! |
I never said it is ok to kill people , and distribute death threats , this is the opposite of what the REAL islam is all about ! I wouldnt expect you to understand that ...
I am not saying countries with so called free speech should bend their way of thinking as not to offend religious muslims. But , since those countries are so advanced and prosperous , the consequences of such actions should be taken into consideration. When you print such cartoons , at the end of the day , it doesnt have any value , it doesnt make that country stronger and it doesnt promote a more " free speech " environment !
However, this act does mean alot to muslims , and will offend the majority of muslims world wide (but does not give any excuse to kill or vandalize ). It might also create problems with countries as a whole , governments, firms, organizations , and so on. while on the other hand the cartoons might merely make some people laugh! So taking that into consideration , i think people should pause and think for a while , before taking such actions !
No one asked you to sympathize with any choice we make . I think boycotting danish products is the right thing to do, so it demonstrate that the cartoons dont just offend individual muslims , but countries as a whole !
I dont expect you to understand the importance or our prophet ( peace be upon him ) , thats why i mentioned it ....
I also wish they would stop " wasting " money on the middle east like you said, But that also means that they leave us alone , and dont run around craving our natural resources , creating scenarios just to have presence in the region ..... !!!!!
But i bet you they cant handle the thought of that .
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| Originally posted by qussay I never said it is ok to kill people , and distribute death threats , this is the opposite of what the REAL islam is all about ! I wouldnt expect you to understand that ... |
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| Originally posted by qussay I am not saying countries with so called free speech should bend their way of thinking as not to offend religious muslims. But , since those countries are so advanced and prosperous , the consequences of such actions should be taken into consideration. When you print such cartoons , at the end of the day , it doesnt have any value , it doesnt make that country stronger and it doesnt promote a more " free speech " environment ! |
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| Originally posted by qussay However, this act does mean alot to muslims , and will offend the majority of muslims world wide (but does not give any excuse to kill or vandalize ). It might also create problems with countries as a whole , governments, firms, organizations , and so on. while on the other hand the cartoons might merely make some people laugh! So taking that into consideration , i think people should pause and think for a while , before taking such actions ! |
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| Originally posted by qussay I also wish they would stop " wasting " money on the middle east like you said, But that also means that they leave us alone , and dont run around craving our natural resources , creating scenarios just to have presence in the region ..... !!!!! But i bet you they cant handle the thought of that . |
Regarding honour killings, alot is already going on in the country to change the laws , and the good news is that Queen Rania herslef is leading this change . However , you must understand that some Jordanians still have the old/uninformed mentality , so this will take time , but it will change eventually.
Siham Qandah was reunited with her kids on April 14th, 2005 , and her husbands brother was ordered by the court to re-pay the amount he withdrew from his nephew's trust fund . !More Info
You say "Jordanians hail zarqawi. " Thats not true , maybe some of them think this way , but the majority dont. and if you check the news (not obvious sources), around 4 government officials who stood against zarqawi's death , have now been taken to jail for questioning, and so many people marched to oppose those official's statements and actions ! More Info
Again , maybe the media didnt cover these stories , be it intentional or not , there is no reason , for ANYONE to get offended ! On the contrary , i think this is, and should be an example to people who depend on the media , to form their views of the middle east
edit : i dont think you can compare the cartoon issue with any of the the mentioned above! They are very different !
You cant write or draw something about a certain group of people and say it was not intended for them, information travels very fast these days , and sooner or later , people will know !
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| Originally posted by qussay edit : i dont think you can compare the cartoon issue with any of the the mentioned above! They are very different ! |
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| Originally posted by qussay A non-muslim , would never understand what Prophet Mohammad represents to a true muslim. It is far beyond anything you can comprehend. So , by mocking him , and illustrating him in newspaper cartoons , you have triggered rage in alot of people's hearts . So when certain countries react by boycotting dansih products , its their OWN way of representing freedom of choice , and speech . YOU of all people should understand that they DO have a choice, and its their right to do so ! So dont complain when sales of certain dansih companys plunged ! We never wanted this to begin with ! |
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| Originally posted by qussay ^ i am not saying either , but i stil should have the right to question it , since you are saying we must have unrestricted freedom of speech . People shouldnt go to jail because they question if it happened or not , freedom of speech should give them the right to say whatever they want .... ! |
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| Originally posted by Groundhog Boy You're right, they are very different and you can't compare them. One is a cartoon, the above involves real people. Geez, maybe it's a cultural thing, but I know which one I take more offense from. Speaking of which, I personally found the Zarqawi beheadings pretty offensive, but that didn't cause me to burn down embassies or mosques. This is the sort of thing that causes the outrage from our side of things because there is no basis for violence like that. I'm not religious now, but when I was a kid, I was and my parents still are. This comment is so incredibly arrogant it blows my mind. Please explain to me how the prophet Mohammad is more important to you as a Muslim than Jesus is to a Christian, Abraham is to a Jew, Buddha is to a Buddhist, etc. LOTS of people understand what he represents to you, because they have a similar person in their life that they worship and follow. Also, while I could care less if you, personally, choose to boycott items from countries, I'm opposed to government blocking the import of these prodcuts. I disagree with the USA's boycott on Cuban products. Allow people to make their own decisions as to whether they feel these cartoons warrant economic retaliation, don't make the decision for them, because not everyone agrees. Lastly, I'd just like to add that I wish we'd stay out of your countries, too. We might want your natural resources, but your people have no problem selling them, so they're just as to blame. I just wish we'd ignore you politically, because it's pretty obvious that we're so far apart culturally, that I don't understand how anyone expects a similar political system to work. |
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| Originally posted by qussay Regarding honour killings, alot is already going on in the country to change the laws , and the good news is that Queen Rania herslef is leading this change . However , you must understand that some Jordanians still have the old/uninformed mentality , so this will take time , but it will change eventually. Siham Qandah was reunited with her kids on April 14th, 2005 , and her husbands brother was ordered by the court to re-pay the amount he withdrew from his nephew's trust fund . !More Info You say "Jordanians hail zarqawi. " Thats not true , maybe some of them think this way , but the majority dont. and if you check the news (not obvious sources), around 4 government officials who stood against zarqawi's death , have now been taken to jail for questioning, and so many people marched to oppose those official's statements and actions ! More Info Again , maybe the media didnt cover these stories , be it intentional or not , there is no reason , for ANYONE to get offended ! On the contrary , i think this is, and should be an example to people who depend on the media , to form their views of the middle east |
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| Originally posted by qussay edit : i dont think you can compare the cartoon issue with any of the the mentioned above! They are very different ! |
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| Although it may sound absurd to Americans, those rather innocent cartoons may have done more to open the eyes of Europeans to the Islamic threat than the terror attacks of 9/11, the London and Madrid bombings combined. People who can burn down embassies because of something so silly quite simply don't have anything at all in common with us, and cannot function in our democratic societies. |
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| Originally posted by trancaholic I agree fully with Groundhog Boy here. In fact I read an opinion piece lately which described the situation quite accurately: (Source ) The rest of piece is crap, and the wording is a bit off IMO, but I've heard lots of people describing the fallout as "an eye opener". |
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| Originally posted by qussay ^ Any act of violence , and/or destruction i oppose , but to say , that you want an open minded society , where free speech is a must , and then when muslims in such societies speak up and excercise this right, by saying that they are against such offensive cartoons ..... well .... You form such a generalized assumption , that after what a minor group of people did , all arab/muslim immigrants living in the west " cannot function in such democratic societies " is really going over board ! |
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| Originally posted by qussay ^ By Saying that , you clearly deomonstrated to me , that you dont know what Prohoet Mohammad ( PBUH ) means to a true muslim ! Prohets are not REGULAR men , and they shouldnt be treated as such ! The Quran stresses on the good manners and respect issue , and when Prohpet Mohammad was asked what his majore message and teaching to this world is , he said to show and teach people good manners and respect , through islam of course ( not saying that muslims are the only people with good manners ) We , as muslims , dont have pictures , drawings , or any other clear illusrtations of Prohet Mohammad ( PBUH ) , regardless of the reasons. why should a newspaper that has nothing to do with islam , print such OFFENSIVE cartoons ???? In our societies , we dont mock ANY of the prophets, its the total oppostie of what islam is . However , sadly today , it has become acceptable to do so , just to excercise our right of free speech and show the world how " civilized " our societies are ! Is it ok do forget what those prophets represent to billions of people , just so you dont feel " restrained and limited " to what you can print or say ...? Not one middle eastern country boycotted any European products, the kept them in the market , and the people THEMSELVES chose not to buy them ! ( Avoiding to comment on your " i would care less remark " since i do belive in good manners ... ) You should know that law makers , politicians , and ruling royal families almost never represent what the people's will and way of thinking is. Maybe we are too far apart culturly , but still that isnt enough reason for the west to stay away( and i aslo wish you would ingore us in every way you can......) From day one , the west wanted presence in this region , claiming we are " uncapable of democratic and civilized self rule .... " edit : i never supported the burning down and destruction of mosques and buildings, nor the death threats distributed after this issue , and regrding ANY other issue ! |
If i or we muslims see that our Prophet is more important than any other prophet , and/or we see that other prophets are insignificant , then how come , after the cartoon incident , not one muslim critised Jesus or Moses ???
I never said or even gave the smallest hint regarding what you are saying , and if you know ANYTHING , about the Quran , you would know that Jesus and Moses were mentioned several times , if not more than Prophet Mohammad . And our religion clearly identifies with Chrstianity and the Jewsih religion.
In the Middle East today , religious figures dont not rule the country, but they have some influence on the laws and law makers, and if all the countries do FORCE people to do what the religious figures think is right , then how come the whole Middle east and parts of the Gulf serve alcohol in public places , have beaches where both men and women can swim together , let women vote in the elections , allow women to run for government positions and so on ... The choice is yours !
@ trancaholic : maybe i misunderstood your quote , i thought you were addressing the immingrants in western countries as one entity without distinguishing between each group's direction of thought ! Hence my assumption of generalization.
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| Originally posted by qussay I never said or even gave the smallest hint regarding what you are saying , and if you know ANYTHING , about the Quran , you would know that Jesus and Moses were mentioned several times , if not more than Prophet Mohammad . And our religion clearly identifies with Chrstianity and the Jewsih religion. |
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| In the Middle East today , religious figures dont not rule the country, but they have some influence on the laws and law makers, and if all the countries do FORCE people to do what the religious figures think is right , then how come the whole Middle east and parts of the Gulf serve alcohol in public places , have beaches where both men and women can swim together , let women vote in the elections , allow women to run for government positions and so on ... The choice is yours ! |
well , Sharia will always be part of arab/muslim societies and governments. The problem is, many muslims today , apply sharia in the wrong way , forgetting that times have changed from the days of prophet Mohammad ( PBUH ) , and i am not , in any way saying that sharia is wrong , i am saying , that people use it as an excuse to get away with many WRONG actions , which are in complete opposition with the real islam.
Putting Iran and Saudi Arabia aside , the issues i mentioned in my previous post can be found in countries such as Jordan , Lebanon , Syria , Egypt , Bharian , UAE ...
I agree with you , that muslims who use ANY violent method of expression as a reaction to a certain issue , is very wrong , and is currently giving the wrong impression about the whole religion. I also , strongly agree with fatwa's stating that muslims should abide by their host country's laws , and conduct themselves in the best manner possible. Those countries gave them citizenships and welcomed them , they owe this to the country , to themselves , and especially to their religion. But , at the same time , the country should aslo do its part , by trying to prevent racist activites , and educate people on how to get along as one body within that country. ( issues such as job descrimination )
Many countries are doing alot to condemn such issues , such as the Zarqawi incident in Jordan, and Qanadah case also ( refer to my previous post for sources ) but the problem is , the media tends to avoid any positive feedback from muslims , and wants to show the world , the worst side of the muslim/arab community , so you would never know what IS ACTUALLY going on ! So many positive reactions came about from the cartoon issue , such as peaceful marches , seminars to show and explain what the real islam is , even articles in numerous newspapers and magazines explaining to the people of the world who our prophet is , but again , a slight portion ( if not none ) of this got media coverage !
Finally , the Quran , talks more about Jesus and Moses and all the other prophets , than it does about Mohammad ( PBUH ) , in fact , Islam shows , how all the prophets from Adam to Mohammad ( PBUH ) came with one single , unified message from god , it is US , the people of the world , who separated that message , and turned what is supposed to be one religion for all( sent several times , to different people , throughout different durations) , into segregated religions .
This is truly a rough time for all, especially for muslims , but rest assure , that alot is being done , even if you hear otherwise...
Haha, this is my first time in the Politics Forum for some time now, and since I'm in Denmark for the summer, the title of this thread caught me offguard. I was like "jihad, what? oh no! I must run!" But then I realized it's just an on-going discussion. You guys had me going there for a sec though. 
But on a serious note, I met with a member of the Danish Foreign Ministry two weeks ago for a class I'm taking, and it was very interesting to hear the government's view. While at first I thought it was somewhat irresponsible for the government to have done nothing, it makes sense to me now that they can on the one hand disapprove of the cartoons but on the other allow them to be published at the discretion of the newspaper editors responsible. I think in all of this it's been forgotten that a government can't be monitor everything that is published -- the responsibility for the publishing at some point has to fall on the paper and the paper alone. I think it's the job of a newspaper editor to decide for him/herself whether or not something is offensive. Kind of a moral obligation, if you will.
Having said that, the PM was just plain silly to refuse the meeting request of the Muslim Ambassadors last Fall. Had the government been more conciliatory to the offended parties, perhaps this would never have spiraled into such a huge controversy.
Another fall, another Cartoon offense:
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| COPENHAGEN � Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen denounced on Sunday, October 8, footage of members of a far-right Danish party lampooning Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) after the film sparked outrage in the Muslim world. "I strongly condemn the behavior of members of the youth wing of the Danish Peoples' Party during their summer camp," Rasmussen said in a written statement to the Danish news agency Ritzau, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP). "It is unacceptable behavior of a small group of young people. Their tasteless behavior in no way represents the Danish people's or young Danes' view of Muslims or Islam," Rasmussen said. Denmark's TV2 channel has broadcast excerpts from a video showing members of the extreme-right Danish People's Party portraying the prophet Mohammed as a beer-drinking camel and a drunken terrorist attacking Copenhagen. Swift The prime minister said he was pleased that youth wings of parties from across the political spectrum in Denmark had condemned the film. The youth wings of other parties, including the ruling Liberal party, criticized the DPP and said they would protest by not attending any political events where members of the Danish Peoples' Party were present. The president of the DPP Youth, Kenneth Kristensen, who did not participate in the party, on Friday, October 6, distanced his organization from the footage. Pundits say the prime minister has learnt the lesson from last year's cartoons crisis and swiftly condemned the offensive video. A government-backed study condemned Rasmussen for mishandling the cartoons crisis sparked last year by the publication of 12 caricatures mocking the Prophet in Danish mass-circulation Jyllands Posten. Rasmussen refused in October 2005 to meet with 11 ambassadors from Muslim nations who had asked to see him in a bid to nip a looming crisis in the bud. Rasmussen said he regretted the hurt caused to Muslims but refuses to apologize for the publications of the drawings. No Responsibility Abu Laban (L) with Nyhed Avisen editor-in-chief David Trads. Footage of the video were published Saturday, October 7, by daily Nyhed Avisen. A delegation of Muslim leaders in Denmark met Sunday with the newspaper's editor-in-chief David Trads, who argued that the paper just exposed to the public opinion what had been going on behind the closed doors of the DPP's youth wing. "It is very important to highlight the political culture of this party, which is a strong ally to the government and the third largest party in Denmark," he told IslamOnline.net. He said the newspaper covered the incident and was in no way involved in it. "We have just covered a political incident," he said. "It is important to expose the racism of this party, which grows extremist when it comes to Islam." Ahmed Abu-Laban, a Copenhagen imam who attended the meeting with Trads, said the issue is completely different from that of the Jyallands Posten. "The Danish media is not responsible this time for the crisis," he told IOL. "It is the Posten that organized a contest of cartoons lampooning the Prophet." "The paper has just heralded the news and did not spark the crisis," he added. Abu Laban, who helped organize a trip to Egypt and Lebanon last year to rally support among Muslim leaders for protests against the cartoons, urged the Muslim nation to address the current crisis in a profound approach. Muslim leaders in Denmark said on Saturday they will not be provoked by such a "childish manner," but will take an astute action against the insult by the anti-immigrant. Muslims make up around three percent of Denmark�s 5.3 population, making Islam the second largest religion after the Lutheran Protestant Church. |
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CAIRO, Egypt - Egypt's largest Islamic group, the Muslim Brotherhood, denounced on Saturday what it called "new Danish insults" to Islam a day after word spread about a Web video showing young members of a populist Danish political party mocking the Prophet Muhammad. The Brotherhood, which enjoys wide popularity in Egypt and the Arab World, urged Muslims to boycott products from Denmark and any other country that would allow such an "insult." The story, first reported by the Danish daily newspaper Nyhedsavisen on Friday, came in the aftermath of violent protests after 12 drawings of the Prophet Muhammad were published last year by another Danish newspaper. Video clips of a drawing contest among the young politicians, in their 20s and 30s, were posted on some Web sites after the annual Aug. 4-6 camp. In the videos, it appeared that they had been drinking. Nearly all of the approximately 30 people shown in the videos had their faces blurred, but the images they drew were clearly visible. In one, a woman presents a drawing of a camel, adding that it has "the head of Muhammad" and beer bottles as humps. The group laughs as the woman, who was not identified, explained the drawing. "Muslims are shocked by this new Danish insult," the Muslim Brotherhood said in a statement. It described the drawing as "the ugliest for God's most honorable human being, peace be upon him." In September 2005, the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten printed drawings of the Prophet Muhammad. Four months later, they were reprinted in a range of Western media, triggering fierce protests across the Muslim world that included the storming of some western embassies. Kenneth Kristensen, chairman of the Danish People's Party Youth which is known for its anti-immigration stance, refused to apologize Friday for the actions of its members, but acknowledged they were problematic. "I regret that they decided to organize the drawing contest. They must take responsibility for it," said Kristensen, who did not attend the camp. But he added that he believed it was "OK to poke fun at Muhammad, Jesus or Bill Clinton." Islamic law is interpreted to forbid any depiction of the prophet for fear it could lead to idolatry. |
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