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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im quite the opposite. theyre cretins. the only cracking-up worthy post was lira's target picture. now THAT was gold i have no respect for anyone in this thread that thinks either side is 100% to blame. you islamists and zionists need to take a nice long drink from the cup of perspective.

i was trying to be polite

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Originally posted by venomX lol i guess im too curious to actually ignore people, but after this im off. i personally have not seen this fotos, and no i dont approve of any such pictures, and think its sick. when some dumb american posted pictures of al-zawarqi or whatever his name is and was making fun of him being dead i said exactly the same thing. and if you really want to know i bunched up all you in the same group, you just distract me from reading intelligent comments that actually add to my knowledge of the current conflict. so goodnight and goodluck.

keep living in this strange flagged country and not get involve with things that dont connect you.

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Originally posted by Dj Alex (ISR) now he hold the gun for fun in few years he will pointing this gun on my kids.. and damn shit do you think thats its not human that children will play with real guns!?!! where are the parents?!?!! TERORISTS!

You can't say with certainty that's true; that's an opinion.

The fact that they have been exposed to that kind of environment does make the possibility go up, but we can't say explicitly that these kids are all going to be terrorists.
venomX is right; one of those kids could very well be the next person to stop it all.
They could just as well reject their teachings and use it to build something positive knowing very well the other side of the coin.
I understand it's a very emotional time for all sides, but let's try and use some judgement too.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r You can't say with certainty that's true; that's an opinion. The fact that they have been exposed to that kind of environment does make the possibility go up, but we can't say explicitly that these kids are all going to be terrorists. venomX is right; one of those kids could very well be the next person to stop it all. They could just as well reject their teachings and use it to build something positive knowing very well the other side of the coin. I understand it's a very emotional time for all sides, but let's try and use some judgement too.

ok i'll use my judgement newxt time.. when i'll man with a gun.. he probebly want peace... and when ill see arab with a bomb he probebly want to get into dancing club or something.
are you nuts?!!!!!!!
GUNSSSSSSSSSSSSS ppl GUNS!! REAL SHITTTTTTT IN KIDS HANDDDDDD
WAKE UPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
Why i dont find israeli children with guns?!! why?!!!! tell me!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by venomX lol i guess im too curious to actually ignore people, but after this im off. i personally have not seen this fotos, and no i dont approve of any such pictures, and think its sick. when some dumb american posted pictures of al-zawarqi or whatever his name is and was making fun of him being dead i said exactly the same thing. and if you really want to know i bunched up all you in the same group, you just distract me from reading intelligent comments that actually add to my knowledge of the current conflict. so goodnight and goodluck.

if you actually read my post, you would see that i keep being on topic (most of the time) with relevant comments, while some silly kids (hardcore trancer i.e) keep teasing. so pay attention to the one you address.

omg he ignored me, please no!!!11one

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r venomX is right; one of those kids could very well be the next person to stop it all. They could just as well reject their teachings and use it to build something positive knowing very well the other side of the coin. I understand it's a very emotional time for all sides, but let's try and use some judgement too.

I doubt that, since age 0 they're educated to be against Israel.

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Originally posted by epsilon1 I doubt that, since age 0 they're educated to be against Israel.

We can have doubts sure, but the possibility still exists.

I'm not saying a like it any less than you guys, kids with guns is sickening (hence organizations like www.warchild.com) however, we can't assume they're automatically going to grow up to be terrorists either.
That's like saying all kids that grow up on farms are automatically going to be farmers.

quote:

Originally posted by epsilon1 I doubt that, since age 0 they're educated to be against Israel.

the same applies to us quite as well as shown by most of the israelis that posted here, and if not on the educational level, then definitely on the social level.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Does your Super IDF Kippah protect your head from the bombs then???

Actually, I have the exact coordinates in Canada that need to be bombed during your hours there:

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T the same applies to us quite as well as shown by most of the israelis that posted here, and if not on the educational level, then definitely on the social level.

Yeah, surrender more territories, why not? People like you make me ashamed to be of the same faith and roots as you. You're a pathetic weakling and disgrace.

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 Yeah, surrender more territories, why not? People like you make me ashamed to be of the same faith and roots as you. You're a pathetic weakling and disgrace.

it's nice to put words into other people's mouths.

you're either with us, or against us, right?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN but its not. the only way the root cause is relevant is if the root cause can be attended to. root cause = creation of israel. root answer therefore = destruction of israel. now we know thats not going to be the answer, so to point fingers back 60 years is irrelevant in today's modern context.

No ethical solution can be found WITHOUT addressing the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians, it's that simple. The Palestinians, the indigenous people, are the ones who got militarily occupied and ethnically cleansed, not the other way around. But I guess I can see why that's something that would be easy for the West to ignore. America, South Africa, & Australlia are perfect examples of the same unjust brutal practice. The only difference is that this is HAPPENING RIGHTNOW AND IT'S NOT TO LATE TO REVERSE IT! Ofcourse, I don't expect that to happen. I don't expect states and policy makers to rise to an even elementary level of morality, especially considering that was the plan from the beggining. Get rid of the Arabs and take the land by force. So you can see how there's no end to this conflict until that objective is met.

quote:

Ben-Gurion eloquently articulated the fundamental goals of Zionism to Auni Abdul Hadi, a prominent Palestinian politician before 1948, as the following: "Our ultimate goal is the independence of the Jewish people in Palestine, on both sides of the Jordan, not as a minority but as a community of several million. In my opinion, it is possible to create over a period of forty years, if Transjordan was included, a community of four million Jews in addition to an Arab community of two million." (Israel: A History, p. 74) As immigration of European Jewry to Palestine increased between 1931-1935 (which doubled Palestine's Jewish population), Chancellor Judah Leon Magnes (the president of the Hebrew University who favored a bi-national state where Palestinians and Jews live with equal rights) asked Ben-Gurion to make concessions to Palestinians over Jewish immigration by 1935, Ben-Gurion explicitly told Magnes this: "The difference between me and you is that you are ready to sacrifice immigration for peace, while I am not, though peace is dear to me. And even if I was prepared to make concessions, the Jews of Poland and Germany would not be, because they have no other option. For them immigration comes before peace." Ben-Gurion left no doubt that he identified, heart and soul, with this ordering of priorities." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 159) Soon after the outbreak of the first Intifada in 1936, Ben-Gurion articulated the Palestinians fears when he wrote: "The Arabs fear of our power is intensifying, [Palestinians] see exactly the opposite of what we see. It doesn't matter whether or not their view is correct.... They see [Jewish] immigration on a giant scale .... they see the Jews fortify themselves economically .. They see the best lands passing our hands. They see England identify with Zionism. ..... [Arabs are] fighting dispossession ... The fear is not of losing land, but of losing homeland of the Arab people, which others want to turn it into the homeland of the Jewish people. There is a fundamental conflict. We and they want the same thing: We both want Palestine ..... By our very presence and progress here, [we] have matured the [Arab] movement." (Righteous Victims, p. 136) From the beginning, Zionists advocated a "Jewish State" not just in Palestine, but also in Jordan, southern Lebanon, and the Golan Heights as well. In 1918 Ben-Gurion described the future "Jewish state's" frontiers in details as follows: "to the north, the Litani river [in southern Lebanon], to the northeast, the Wadi 'Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al-'Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan" (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 87) Yosef Weitz did not only advocate "transferring" the Palestinian people so the "Jewish state" would become a "Jewish majority", he also envisioned the "transfer" as a useful tool that could dispossess them from their lands. He stated in a meeting with the Transfer Committee on November 15, 1937: "...the transfer of [Palestinian] Arab population from the area of the Jewish state does not serve only one aim--to diminish the Arab population. It also serves a second, no less important, aim which is to advocate land presently held and cultivated by the [Palestinian] Arabs and thus to release it for Jewish inhabitants." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 94-95) Weitz was obsessed with "transferring" the Palestinian people to neighboring Arab countries in a way that consumed all his thoughts. He wrote in his diary on December 20, 1940: "it must be clear that there is no room in the country for both [Arab and Jewish] peoples . . . If the [Palestinian] Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us . . . The only solution [after the end of WW II] is a Land of Israel, at least a western land of Israel [i.e. Palestine since Transjordan is the eastern portion], without [Palestinian] Arabs. There is no room here for compromises . . . There is no way but to transfer the [Palestinian] Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them, save perhaps for [the Palestinian Arabs of] Bethlehem, Nazareth, and the old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one [Bedouin] tribe. The transfer must be directed at Iraq, Syria, and even Transjordan [eastern portion of Eretz Yisrael]. For this goal funds will be found . . . An only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb millions of our brothers and the Jewish problem will cease to exist. There is no other solution." (Benny Morris, p. 27 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, 131-132)

I could spend all day quoting various Zionists (regarding their agenda of creating a state by disposing the indigenous population, well before Israel was even created), although I really don't feel the need to. Hopefully you get the point.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN as opposed to the palestinian groups that send young men off to market strapped with explosives?

^^ What does that have to do with what I said earlier?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN so, what youre saying is that if a wrong occurs then no matter how that wrong is punished and how many times, its still ok because those that started the 'fight' deserve it? therefore the citizens of nagasaki & hiroshima or dresden deserved what they got? it would be ok for native americans or aboriginal australians to go round blowing civilians to pieces?

Perhaps you concluded that, but that not exactly what I said. First of all (the old cliche, which is nevertheless true), two wrongs don't make a right. So that initial "wrong" (injustice) hasn't been rectified or "punished."

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im not debating that the creation of israel and their conduct since hasnt been the root cause of many of the problems, but israel is there now. its not going anywhere. to think differently just isnt realistic. and this is what the militants have got to understand. yes, of course the palestinians have rights (in my eyes) but those rights do not include kidnapping israeli soldiers.

Given the modus operandi and reputation of the IDF, I don't really give two shits about (the vast majority of) them. They're far worse, if not as bad as Palestinians terrorists. Their imposonment won't make me loose any sleep, nor will it evoke sympathy. And it's not like there aren't a disproportionatly larger number of Palestian prisoners, alot of who's only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time (or having a blood relation to the wrong person). YOU DON'T FUCKIN' GO TO WAR OVER STUPID SHIT LIKE THAT! There are plenty of other altenatives (which I don't really expect Israel to consider, since they have a track record of aggression, disregard for international law, coersion, and expansion). And it certainly doesn't require bombing civilian and destroying the nations infrastructure (yes, I know you don't agree with that eigther, so please don't assume that I assume you do).

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN again, you havent countered my statement re: is this the reward israel gets for making territory concessions?

There a pretty fuckin simple answer to that. IT's NOT THEIR FUCKIN' TERRIOTORY! (and to be honest, I'm not even sure what you're specifically referring to here)

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh, and have you read anything else ive posted in this thread? ive condemned several actions by israel, so dont lay that bullshit at my feet. i am impartial, in that i criticise both sides.

I'm well aware of that. I never accused you of ignoring the crimes of the state of Israel. What I was saying was, given the nature and origin of the conflict, there isn't a whole lot of room for "impartiality." "You can't be nuetral on a moving train." -Howard Zinn

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN but yes on this occasion the impetus for violence isnt israel, though i certainly think theyre taking things too far.

That's not exactly correct. Media coverage on this issue (Israel-Palestine) is far from being accurate, objective, or non-biased, and you know that just as well as I do. I remember reading something earlier (specific to the current state of affairs) and it was clear that you couldn't really point fingers soley at any one entity. I'm not going to bother posting any links or anything, atleast for now, since I'm really only responding to your last response. Plus, (check out my last post in the PDDCOR) I don't have the energy or the patience to delve into this issue in great detail at this moment.

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T it's nice to put words into other people's mouths.

Wouldn't know anything about that - there was hardly any double meaning in your post.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z There a pretty fuckin simple answer to that. IT's NOT THEIR FUCKIN' TERRIOTORY! (and to be honest, I'm not even sure what you're specifically referring to here)

for all (practical) intents and purposes, i think it's pretty safe to say that it is

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 Wouldn't know anything about that - there was hardly any double meaning in your post.

there was hardly a word in it regarding what we should do with the territories, in fact there wasn't even a hint towards it. just some run of the mill social commentary: the guy said those kids are brought up to hate us? i said the same applies to us, we're brought up to hate them, to the same extent.

quote:

Originally posted by Goashem what you still dont understand and i beg you to try is that its HEZBOLLAH that attacked israel not lebanon. its not the lebanese people or governments fault for the attack. israel is attacking a third party that is unfortunately stuck in the middle of this conflict. thats why the attack is a disgrace.

I'm quite sure that..let's not say all, but most, Israeli people do understand (including myself) that Hezbollah attacked Israel and abducted the soldiers, NOT Lebanon. my question is: what would you do, if you were in Israel's position?

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T there was hardly a word in it regarding what we should do with the territories, in fact there wasn't even a hint towards it. just some run of the mill social commentary: the guy said those kids are brought up to hate us? i said the same applies to us, we're brought up to hate them, to the same extent.

Not counting the precedents? I clearly remember number of your posts, in which you are quite clear in your leftist views.



Those who would sacrifice freedom for temporary security deserve neither.
- Benjamin Franklin

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 Not counting the precedents? I clearly remember number of your posts, in which you are quite clear in your leftist views.

i just went through the whole thread looking for those, couldn't find anything relavant

in regards to having irrelavant leftist views, please refer to what i said a few posts back, and please note the sarcasm:

quote:

you're either with us, or against us, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Alex (ISR) and you supposed to be Einstein? oh sry.. he was jew.

Funny you should mention Einstein:

quote:

Letters to the New York Times December 4, 1948 New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES: Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the �Freedom Party� (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine. The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin�s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents. Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin�s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. The public avowals of Begin�s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future. Attack on Arab Village A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants � 240 men, women, and children � and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin. The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party. Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute. The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots. Discrepancies Seen The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a �Leader State� is the goal. In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin�s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin. The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism. (signed) Isidore Abramowitz, Hannah Arendt, Abraham Brick, Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, Albert Einstein, Herman Eisen, M.D., Hayim Fineman, M. Gallen, M.D., H.H. Harris, Zelig S. Harris, Sidney Hook, Fred Karush, Bruria Kaufman, Irma L. Lindheim, Nachman Maisel, Symour Melman, Myer D. Mendelson, M.D., Harry M. Orlinsky, Samuel Pitlick, Fritz Rohrlich, Louis P. Rocker, Ruth Sager, Itzhak Sankowsky, I.J. Schoenberg, Samuel Shuman, M. Znger, Irma Wolpe, Stefan Wolpe New York, Dec. 2, 1948

quote:

Israeli girls write messages on a shell at a heavy artillery position near Kiryat Shmona, in northern Israel, next to the Lebanese border, Monday, July 17, 2006. Diplomatic efforts to end Israeli-Hezbollah fighting gained traction Monday, with Israeli officials saying the country would agree to halt fighting if its two captured soldiers were returned and Islamic guerrillas withdrew from the border. Publicly, the officials continued to insist their goal was to dismantle Hezbollah. But senior aides to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert office said he told his Italian counterpart, Romano Prodi, that Israel would accept cease-fire terms of Hezbollah releasing the Israeli soldiers and withdrawing from the border. (AP Photo/Sebastian Scheiner)

AAAAWWW.. how cute.. little israeli terrorist girls in the making.

Only Israeli's are notorious for writing messages on their weapons that will eventually lead to the death of innocent palestinians and lebanese people.

And to all those who hate me.. theres 4 of us using this account bitches!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King AAAAWWW.. how cute.. little israeli terrorist girls in the making. Only Israeli's are notorious for writing messages on their weapons that will eventually lead to the death of innocent palestinians and lebanese people. And to all those who hate me.. theres 4 of us using this account bitches!!!

oh no mp5!

quote:

And to all those who hate me.. theres 4 of us using this account bitches!!!

Perfect Square of 4 dumbasses who sitting behind a computer and talking nothing but crap on other people's countries



Get a Life.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King AAAAWWW.. how cute.. little israeli terrorist girls in the making. Only Israeli's are notorious for writing messages on their weapons that will eventually lead to the death of innocent palestinians and lebanese people. And to all those who hate me.. theres 4 of us using this account bitches!!!

Dude, your personalities are multiplying. Tell Cyrus Gazvini (the one and only) that his coordinates have been located. Oh, and that he's a chicken shit coward motherfuker.

It's unfortunate that children have to be dragged into the conflicts of stubborn adults. This will only perpetuate the cycle of violence.

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