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-- Breaking: Shooting at Virginia Tech University
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quote:

Originally posted by david.sound Eddie Izzard: "It's not guns that kill people, it's people that kill people." I think the guns help a little bit.

I love that line, but here, you take the gun out of the equation, and you still have a problem. Only it hasnt killed 32 people. "Out of sight, out of mind" I guess.

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Originally posted by Clovis I love that line, but here, you take the gun out of the equation, and you still have a problem. Only it hasnt killed 32 people. "Out of sight, out of mind" I guess.

:P No no no, I totally agree that gun regulations won't do anything, but this whole discussion reminded me of what Eddie Izzard said, which made me laugh by the thought of it :P

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Originally posted by david.sound :P No no no, I totally agree that gun regulations won't do anything, but this whole discussion reminded me of what Eddie Izzard said, which made me laugh by the thought of it :P

You just reminded me to bring that DVD to my cousin's house later tonight...thanks!

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Originally posted by david.sound I accept that in this world we live in, people can be ignorant. I don't look down or look up to these people. I just acknowledge their presence and move on with life. Sometimes you just need to filter out those that are negative and just smile. Obviously the shooter didn't. <3 hadi

true. i smile alot.

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Originally posted by Clovis Gun control is not the issue here. I'm for alot of gun control, but it just is NOT the issue here. The issue is what, in society, in a person's psyche, drives them to say "that is a means to my end", "that is ok", "this is a good idea". It's neglecting to take good care of the mentally ill, of recognizing signs of it. It's about parenting and instilling the right values and ideas in children. It's about a culture of violence and fear, one that has pretty much consumed the United States for the last 30 years. It's about people being divided instead of united, and distancing the ideas of valuing human life and individuals. If this kid couldn't have gotten a gun, he would still be fucked in the head, and that is the bottom line. That is where the problem lies.

But you can't blame anyone other than really the people themselves for distancing themselves away from one another. Media has a huge impact no how people think and react to certain situations no doubt about it. I'm not saying you're blaming this on anyone like the gov't or something but it's just something to think about.

I'm not trying to get into a racial battle with saying this right now but lets be serious; we all don't like one another because of stereotypes and media and what we hear. Black people hate white people and white people hate black people and so on and so on. We're fed rather mindless bullshit and the media helps us feed that anger. Just take a look at how we feel about the middle east, you had a generation that really had no clue about them and had no harsh feelings towards them to having a new coming generation hating every single middle eastern man/woman they can spot; terrorist stereotype to be exact.

It really isn't so much a gun control issue as you sad but more about how we think of each other, respect has gone down the drain since the early 1900's for sure. Respect your elders and treat people like you want to be treated has no place in society anymore.

My opinion.

Thank God you're okay mebots.

teh phun nun was worried

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis Gun control is not the issue here. I'm for alot of gun control, but it just is NOT the issue here. The issue is what, in society, in a person's psyche, drives them to say "that is a means to my end", "that is ok", "this is a good idea". It's neglecting to take good care of the mentally ill, of recognizing signs of it. It's about parenting and instilling the right values and ideas in children. It's about a culture of violence and fear, one that has pretty much consumed the United States for the last 30 years. It's about people being divided instead of united, and distancing the ideas of valuing human life and individuals. If this kid couldn't have gotten a gun, he would still be fucked in the head, and that is the bottom line. That is where the problem lies.

You are very intelligent. Or at least, I agree with a lot of what you say (same difference, right? ). What are your career/study plans?

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov You are very intelligent. Or at least, I agree with a lot of what you say (same difference, right? ). What are your career/study plans?

Fuck all at the moment, though I enrolled in an English class, a photography class, and two music theory classes for next semester at a local Community College.

And yeah, usually I find intelligent to me often means like-minded.

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Originally posted by Clovis Fuck all at the moment, though I enrolled in an English class, a photography class, and two music theory classes for next semester at a local Community College. And yeah, usually I find intelligent to me often means like-minded.

Yeah, I can see you as the creative sort of fellow if going by your sets is any indication. But you've got a good analytical mind too, so cheers!

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Yeah, I can see you as the creative sort of fellow if going by your sets is any indication. But you've got a good analytical mind too, so cheers!

I'm working on it. I think it comes with growing up and maturing.

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Originally posted by Clovis I'm working on it. I think it comes with growing up and maturing.

You are wise beyond your years, grasshopper.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis Gun control is not the issue here. I'm for alot of gun control, but it just is NOT the issue here. The issue is what, in society, in a person's psyche, drives them to say "that is a means to my end", "that is ok", "this is a good idea". It's neglecting to take good care of the mentally ill, of recognizing signs of it. It's about parenting and instilling the right values and ideas in children. It's about a culture of violence and fear, one that has pretty much consumed the United States for the last 30 years. It's about people being divided instead of united, and distancing the ideas of valuing human life and individuals. If this kid couldn't have gotten a gun, he would still be fucked in the head, and that is the bottom line. That is where the problem lies.

wrong. if gun control were not the issue, you would find similar gun-related statistics across other advanced democracies. and the figures just arent there. this is primarily a question of access to firearms.

Switzerland has fully automatic assault rifles in over 10% of homes, yet its murder rate is nowhere near that of the U.S.

Gun control is not the issue.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Switzerland has fully automatic assault rifles in over 10% of homes, yet its murder rate is nowhere near that of the U.S. Gun control is not the issue.

the nature of gun control is far different in switzerland than it is in the US. you cant even begin to compare the two. and even if we could, how do you possibly ignore the far lower death rates in countries with far more restrictions on gun ownership?

your exception does not disprove the rule.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN wrong. if gun control were not the issue, you would find similar gun-related statistics across other advanced democracies. and the figures just arent there. this is primarily a question of access to firearms.

Are we talking about gun statistics and annual firearm deaths in democratic states, or an incident involving a deranged individual who chose to commit suicide via the murder of 32 people?

Like I said, I am for gun control, child locks, background checks, etc. But the problem here would still exist even if no guns existed on earth, and it has existed much longer than firearms have been available to humans.

I am all in favor of requiring licensing for guns, by the way. We require licensing to drive a car, and a gun is at least as potentially dangerous as a car.

But I don't think they should be banned entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis Are we talking about gun statistics and annual firearm deaths in democratic states, or an incident involving a deranged individual who chose to commit suicide via the murder of 32 people? Like I said, I am for gun control, child locks, background checks, etc. But the problem here would still exist even if no guns existed on earth, and it has existed much longer than firearms have been available to humans.

im talking gun statistics generally. but we only ever talk about it after something like this happens.

yes, the problems might still exist, but i'll take my chances with someone armed with a knife over a gun anyday. deranged individuals in australia would have a far harder time getting access to a bunch of weapons. and low levels of gun ownership mean theres far less "chance" shootings by someone that loses their cool after having a shitty week.

but imo there are far too many guns in the US as it is, and gun control wouldnt really do very much. the US has fvcked itself.

Gun ownership was just as high (or perhaps even higher) in the past when the murder rate was lower and the number of school shootings was far lower. Guns do make violence more deadly, but banning them is nothing but a band-aid solution. It's a way of making people feel good without addressing the tougher root problems of culture.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im talking gun statistics generally. but we only ever talk about it after something like this happens. yes, the problems might still exist, but i'll take my chances with someone armed with a knife over a gun anyday. deranged individuals in australia would have a far harder time getting access to a bunch of weapons. and low levels of gun ownership mean theres far less "chance" shootings by someone that loses their cool after having a shitty week. but imo there are far too many guns in the US as it is, and gun control wouldnt really do very much. the US has fvcked itself.

So you're saying deranged individuals aren't a problem?

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Originally posted by Clovis So you're saying deranged individuals aren't a problem?

i think too many people are too quick to label people as "deranged" when they do things like this. plus, preventing so-called deranged people from obtaining weapons is next to impossible in a society where the market is flooded with firearms.

simple fact is you dont see "deranged" crazies murdering 30+ people with a knife or sword.

Although you do see them releasing toxic gas on subways, making fertilizer bombs, and flying planes into buildings, resulting in far more deaths than school shootings have caused.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i think too many people are too quick to label people as "deranged" when they do things like this. plus, preventing so-called deranged people from obtaining weapons is next to impossible in a society where the market is flooded with firearms. simple fact is you dont see "deranged" crazies murdering 30+ people with a knife or sword.

By deranged I mean mentally ill, suicidal, psychotic, generally needing help.

And I can't think of them off the top of my head, but there have been incidents all around the world of people killing people with swords, knives. Especially in Japan.

I'm just trying to get the point accross, those people need help, and they are the problem. Just because they havnt killed/will kill, doesnt mean they aren't a problem that needs to be addressed.

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis And I can't think of them off the top of my head, but there have been incidents all around the world of people killing people with swords, knives. Especially in Japan.

true. but we're obviously not going to argue about which form of violence is more successful in killing lots of people are we?

quote:

Originally posted by Clovis I'm just trying to get the point accross, those people need help, and they are the problem. Just because they havnt killed/will kill, doesnt mean they aren't a problem that needs to be addressed.

but what about all the other statistics that arent lumped into your category of "deranged"? just the general day-to-day violence where everyone has access to the most successful weapon we have devised? i think any attempt to help the firearm homicide in the states would get little benefit from some kind of medical initiative to recognise problem cases. shit man, you've got 300 million people. how on earth are you going to prevent otherwise normally-behaving individuals from going bonkers? especially when so many of these individuals are "quiet, well mannered, normal" ??

quote:

American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed 5,285 [children] in the United States.

what the fuck? in 2005 there were 3,400 people aged 17-24 killed by firearms in the US (source)

There were 90 deaths of children 0-12 from firearms. In comparison, there were 278 (~3 times more) children murders using "hands, feet, etc". Also, 185 (~2 times more) were drowned.

There were additional 361 for teenagers 13-16, and firearms do become #1 weapon for these murders.

the statistics that you mention are just blown out of proportions

13-24 is not "children". as the national data shows: (source)

the actual age of the murderers is:
467 murderers aged 13-16
4817 aged 17-24

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN wrong. if gun control were not the issue, you would find similar gun-related statistics across other advanced democracies. and the figures just arent there. this is primarily a question of access to firearms.

I think his main point is that gun control WON'T completely fix the problem. That simply making guns illegal and doing nothing to address the inherent violence in American society these days, as well as the plethora of mental problems that youth in this country experience, there will still be outbursts of violence, depression will still be rampant, and tragedies will still occur (albeit on a smaller scale).

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