Yohan..you're actually one of the people that i'm not mad at...even though i don't agree with most of your views..i can tell that they are not coming from a place of hate...i can respect that...i'm not hating on people just cuz they don't agree with my views...
it's the people on here who are obviously so fuckin prejudiced, they will make up anything to justify any action their side takes..that makes me so sick...
the same people would probably be up in arms if this was happening to the jewish people and find a reason to condemn the palestinians...i hate dealing with people like this..they don't care about the truth..they don't care about facts..you show them evidence and they will ignore it cuz it doesn't serve their views..or they will spin the evidence and skew it...or they will label things as "propaganda" ..they are not concerned with what is really going on...i'm sorry but in this day and age..with all the information that we are privy to..there is not excuse for being ignorant...unless you really hate a group of people and secretly enjoy seeing them die...
in my opinion you don't fall into this category..we all know who the haters are in this thread...
Posted by Yohan on Jan-07-2009 01:22:
quote:
Originally posted by gummybear
Yohan..you're actually one of the people that i'm not mad at...
in my opinion you don't fall into this category..we all know who the haters are in this thread...
awww... i feel the plur... Posted by gummybear on Jan-07-2009 01:31:
quote:
Originally posted by Anindo
CNN Confirms Israel Broke Ceasefire First
meh..i'm sure digi will be on here with a 10 paragraph diatribe of why this is not true...Posted by Endlesswave on Jan-07-2009 01:35:
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus King
Christians also came from the middle east... specifically Bethlehem and Nazareth.. curretnly the Palestinian territories.. does that mean Italians are from Palestine since the are Catholic?
Palestinians are probably decendents of tribes that were also desendents from humans migrating up the Eurasian contininent hundreds of thousands of years ago.
I cant believe what youre saying. Are you actually trying to justify a RUSSIAN or a Polack as indeginous to the middle east becuase of their RELIGION???? LOL
Are all muslims descendents of people from SAudi Arabia???
Nope, religion has nothing to do with it in terms of descendancy I think is the word. Italians are Italian due to their being apart of the Italian republic, officially recognized etc. Just like the Brits are from Britain, Chinese, china, etc.
I hope all of this ends soon and yes Israel broke the cease fire from what I read.
Posted by Endlesswave on Jan-07-2009 01:36:
quote:
Originally posted by gummybear
meh..i'm sure digi will be on here with a 10 paragraph diatribe of why this is not true...
I doubt that. Even those that had posted in Israel's 'defence' (Johan himself posted an article from the star that said Israel broke the ceasefire...)
Posted by ChemEnhanced on Jan-07-2009 01:38:
quote:
Originally posted by gummybear
the same people would probably be up in arms if this was happening to the jewish people and find a reason to condemn the palestinians...i hate dealing with people like this..they don't care about the truth..they don't care about facts..you show them evidence and they will ignore it cuz it doesn't serve their views..or they will spin the evidence and skew it...or they will label things as "propaganda" ..they are not concerned with what is really going on...i'm sorry but in this day and age..with all the information that we are privy to..there is not excuse for being ignorant...unless you really hate a group of people and secretly enjoy seeing them die...
you see this on both sides of the discussion....both sides are ignoring and skewing evidence that supports the other side. Does anyone here actually know the truth? I don't think anyone knows the truth anymore as its been so twisted and diluted over time by both sides.
Posted by Dr. Z on Jan-07-2009 01:42:
The problem is not that the pro-Israel side does not see the 'truth'; it's that the pro-Israel side aknowledges that both sides have made mistakes, and there needs to be a fair compromised solution. While the pro-Palestinian side places all the blame on Israel and (a lot) want to wipe Israel as the final act.
Helloo! It's the 21st century. You will never be able to elimite a group of people, or a country. Especially one that is westernized within, has some western support, and is frankly many times stronger than you.
Posted by Endlesswave on Jan-07-2009 01:52:
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Z
The problem is not that the pro-Israel side does not see the 'truth'; it's that the pro-Israel side aknowledges that both sides have made mistakes, and there needs to be a fair compromised solution. While the pro-Palestinian side places all the blame on Israel and (a lot) want to wipe Israel as the final act.
Helloo! It's the 21st century. You will never be able to elimite a group of people, or a country. Especially one that is westernized within, has some western support, and is frankly many times stronger than you.
That's what I'm saying. Why be so rigid in not having ANY sort of compromise, isn't something better than nothing? Or is the Anti Israel side mentality akin to:
"We'll do whatever it takes however long it takes at whatever the cost of lives b/c hell it'll only help to bring sympathy to our cause." instead of actually finding a real solution?
I mean from my perspective I look at it from where my own rents are from. We're Cypriots first, (and were previously since independence) before all the stupidity from the junta happened and at least that is pretty clear from what I see.
As for how that relates to this situation since Israel's founding, my question is at this time, was there an entity, a 'Palestine' that had been occupied by the British? Or were there just a bunch of people scattered through out the area? There IS a difference imo.
Posted by Yohan on Jan-07-2009 01:56:
quote:
Originally posted by Endlesswave
As for how that relates to this situation since Israel's founding, my question is at this time, was there an entity, a 'Palestine' that had been occupied by the British? Or were there just a bunch of people scattered through out the area? There IS a difference imo.
Originally posted by Dr. Z
The problem is not that the pro-Israel side does not see the 'truth'; it's that the pro-Israel side aknowledges that both sides have made mistakes, and there needs to be a fair compromised solution. While the pro-Palestinian side places all the blame on Israel and (a lot) want to wipe Israel as the final act.
Helloo! It's the 21st century. You will never be able to elimite a group of people, or a country. Especially one that is westernized within, has some western support, and is frankly many times stronger than you.
are you for real? do you know how many people i know who have been accused of antisemitism for not agreeing with israel??? my fiance the latest one......all for saying that what israel was doing was not right..give me a break dude....please don't give me this song and dance about how the pro jewish side is so accepting....
i haven't heard one person that is pro palestinian in this thread say that we want to eliminate isreal..i personally would like to see the palestinians have FOOD and ELECTRICITY...ummm..maybe the same rights and liberties as the jews?
blanket comments based on nothing but speculation on your part....
Posted by ChemEnhanced on Jan-07-2009 02:15:
quote:
Originally posted by gummybear
are you for real? do you know how many people i know who have been accused of antisemitism for not agreeing with israel??? my fiance the latest one......all for saying that what israel was doing was not right..give me a break dude....please don't give me this song and dance about how the pro jewish side is so accepting....
i haven't heard one person that is pro palestinian in this thread say that we want to eliminate isreal..i personally would like to see the palestinians have FOOD and ELECTRICITY...ummm..maybe the same rights and liberties as the jews?
blanket comments based on nothing but speculation on your part....
I don't recall one pro palestinian saying that their side is also to blame for the current state of things.
Posted by gummybear on Jan-07-2009 02:23:
Is it not a given that both sides have not been perfect in the past?
Although, in the current situation..i do put the blame on the Israeli government..
Why are we even arguing that point instead of being outraged at what is happening now?
If the current situation was caused by a cease fire being broken..and one side broke it..isn't that side responsible for the current situation?
Posted by UmmiE on Jan-07-2009 02:33:
quote:
Originally posted by ChemEnhanced
I don't recall one pro palestinian saying that their side is also to blame for the current state of things.
Its not rocket science we all admit that both sides are equally bad and to blame here ...... but the bloodshed on one side is way more than the bloodshed on the other,one side has electricity,food,medical supplies,warm clothes and peacfully within their homes where as the other hiding in random places to save their own lives not knowing when a bomb will fall on them and end there lives.On one side people are dying just because of the fact that the hospitals are filled and there are no operation rooms for the next injured ones to be treated where as the other side complete opposite....these are sad days in human history......Im not saying this just because of the fact that Im Muslim and they would be my people .... Im saying these words from a human level .....Im saying these words because of the fact that I have a family and I think when someone loses someone its the most painful loss one can go thru in their life and stupid shit like this to cause it......Failure of us as Human Beings.
Posted by ChemEnhanced on Jan-07-2009 02:34:
quote:
Originally posted by UmmiE
Its not rocket science we all admit that both sides are equally bad and to blame here ...... but the bloodshed on one side is way more than the bloodshed on the other,one side has electricity,food,medical supplies,warm clothes and peacfully within their homes where as the other hiding in random places to save their own lives not knowing when a bomb will fall on them and end there lives.On one side people are dying just because of the fact that the hospitals are filled and there are no operation rooms for the next injured ones to be treated where as the other side complete opposite....these are sad days in human history......Im not saying this just because of the fact that Im Muslim and they would be my people .... Im saying these words from a human level .....Im saying these words because of the fact that I have a family and I think when someone loses someone its the most painful loss one can go thru in their life and stupid shit like this to cause it......Failure of us as Human Beings.
so how is this different then any other war ever fought?
Posted by Spam on Jan-07-2009 02:40:
quote:
Originally posted by Yohan
it's from wiki, so take it as it's worth
Intersting... But then where do all those rockets come from? And why the continued waste of money on them when the result is always the same? Israel blows up Palestine until the Palestinian side runs out of rockets, then a ceasefire is signed for 6 months while they restock. Doesn't that ruin all the good stuff Hamas (or other Palestine governments) has done during the ceasefire? Wouldn't the money spent on rockets be enough to get electricity for the population?
Here's what I REALLY don't understand. Yes, Israel broke the ceasefire by destroying a supply tunnel and 6 Hamas militants. But Hamas responded not by attacking the Israeli military, but by launching bombs randomly towards civilian populations. Israel said "Hey, stop bombing us, or we'll retaliate, and Hamas said "Fuck You!" and kept on launching while hiding amongst their own, innocent, citizens. Why would Hamas do that when they KNOW that Israel will just start sending planes overhead to blow shit up? It seems like such a foolish decision to me. If they HAD to retaliate, Hamas could have gone after the Israeli military, but they decided to target civilians first and foremost. And I don't understand that decision. What should Israel have done when Hamas was launching rockets on their towns and given almost a week to stop?
My point is this. I'm 5'8... Now, if a 7 foot tall body-builder pushes me out of the way while walking... we'll say in a mall. I agree that he's done something wrong. But I have a choice. I can confront him, and attempt to get an apology, perhaps a promise not to do it again, there's even a slim chance he turns out to be a cool guy and we go out to watch the hockey game at the local bar. I can turn the other cheek, forgive, and live my life. I can go to the cops to pursue assault charges... OR, I can throw an ineffective punch at his chest, throw a few more when he tells me to stop, and end up in the hospital farting through my mouth. Sure, I had the moral high-ground right off the bat, but by the time I was heading to the Hospital, I had no one but myself to blame for my circumstance. In my view, Hamas may have had the moral high ground after Israel broke the ceasefire, but then they decided that they wanted to fart through their mouths, and gave up that credibility. Where's the wisdom in Hamas' decision? Israel is committing horrible acts upon the Palestinian people, not just during wartime but through all the sanctions they place on Palestine, I agree. But why is 5'8 Hamas continually trying to pick a fight with 7' Israel? Isn't there a benefit, both to them AND the people they represent, to attempt to form a cooperative relationship with the Israeli side? I have a hard time believing that Palestinians would continue to starve and be deprived of electricity, if their governments weren't so hell-bent on attacking Israel whenever they're given the chance. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and attempt to get along, and most times, it's the WEAKER side that has to do it, simply out of necessity. If Hamas wanted peace and stability for their people, it could be done in an hour.
Instead, neither side seems interested. Because what *I* see and hear is "NO PEACE, NO PEACE, Israel must be turned to dust!" on one side and on the other I hear "We have a RIGHT to the land that we stole! You can HAVE these shitty little areas we saved for you, why won't you accept that?!" BOTH sides NEED to cooperate, or else war will just keep erupting every 6 months. Sometimes sparked by the Israeli side, and sometimes sparked by the Palestinian side. I'm no expert on foreign affairs, but there HAS to be a way to resolve this conflict that doesn't involve Chem's simple solution of blowing one, or both sides to oblivion, and that doesn't rely on some weak-ass 'ceasefire' agreement that should really be called a "restocking truce".
Please note that I'm not trying to argue which side is right. I honestly don't CARE who is "right" or "wrong" in this conflict. I'm interested in why decisions that are made, are being made. In short, I'm simply openly pondering what I perceive as foolishness in Hamas' decisions that I do not understand, given Israel's raw power advantage.
To people on both sides, if you want 'accountability', then be fair. BOTH sides are committing atrocities that must be condemned. And telling me "Oh, well Israel started it, and besides, Hamas' bombs weren't killing anyone and Israeli bombs are." isn't good enough. Telling me "Hamas launched rockets on towns and had a week to stop, so it's THEIR fault!" isn't good enough either. BOTH sides have caused civilian death, and thus BOTH sides were, and ARE wrong, at least this time around.
Posted by Endlesswave on Jan-07-2009 02:41:
Ah, so from what I'm reading there was a Palestine officially but a UN mandate messed it up when the 'powers that be' redrew and changed the borders of the area?
The mandate was rejected by the Palestinians but accepted by the Jewish people there from what I read. Aha. This explains a lot.
Thanks Johan. Posted by Xavier Moriarty on Jan-07-2009 02:44:
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Z Especially one that is westernized within, has some western support, and is frankly many times stronger than you.
you sure about that???
lets wait and see what will usa do when somebody strikes at israel(and we all know it will happen, and fast). somebody who actually can do some serious damage.
you really think arab countries will wait much longer??
Posted by Abercrombie on Jan-07-2009 02:45:
Well said Spam.
Posted by Xavier Moriarty on Jan-07-2009 02:47:
quote:
Originally posted by Spam
What should Israel have done when Hamas was launching rockets on their towns and given almost a week to stop?
aim at schools that they had coordinates for????
Posted by UmmiE on Jan-07-2009 02:53:
quote:
Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
you sure about that???
lets wait and see what will usa do when somebody strikes at israel(and we all know it will happen, and fast). somebody who actually can do some serious damage.
you really think arab countries will wait much longer??
That plus :-
Lets assume even if they(Israel) end up taking control of the whole area....what will happen next?I think it will end up being another iraq or afghanistan where there will be non stop bomb explosions pretty much every other day because of all this hate that is within the hearts of people.....soldier will be attacked on daily basis you will hear that two soldiers died today a day later another three died because of a road side bomb.....You think these people will ever live together now after seeing all his bloodshed?
Plus Plus Plus:-
Did anyone notice how nicely this whole attack was timed just in time when Bush is leaving and Obama is coming into the white house so that all the blame game gets shifted onto him??????
Posted by Dr. Z on Jan-07-2009 03:00:
quote:
Originally posted by gummybear
are you for real?
You live in a bubble if you think my opinion is unique.
quote:
do you know how many people i know who have been accused of antisemitism for not agreeing with israel??? my fiance the latest one......all for saying that what israel was doing was not right..
You have to be pretty retarded to get offended if someone calls you antisemitic. Only insecure jews would call you that in today's day, which doesn't mean anything.
quote:
give me a break dude....please don't give me this song and dance about how the pro jewish side is so accepting....
Your bias and emotional attachment to the topic discredits most things you say. You should have just stayed out of the discussion.
quote:
i haven't heard one person that is pro palestinian in this thread say that we want to eliminate isreal..i personally would like to see the palestinians have FOOD and ELECTRICITY...ummm..maybe the same rights and liberties as the jews?
They did, until they gave all their rights to Hamas.
quote:
blanket comments based on nothing but speculation on your part....
You can only use a sentence like this if you actually discredit (most of) what I have said.
Posted by Spam on Jan-07-2009 03:11:
quote:
Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
aim at schools that they had coordinates for????
Had Hamas stopped firing rockets, there would not have been a blown-up school 10 days later, would there?
Again, I was looking for a serious response, not an emotional sidestep. So lets try this again, because no one has answered my question yet (and this is the 3rd or 4th time I've asked it):
You are Israel's PM/Defense Minister/Whatever (lets pretend).
You take out a military supply tunnel, and kill 6 Hamas militants.
Hamas retaliates by targeting your civilian populations.
Day 1:
You say "Stop bombing my country, or I will direct my army to retaliate."
Hamas says "Fuck You!"
Day 2:
You say "Stop bombing my country, or I will direct my army to retaliate."
Hamas says "Fuck You!"
Day 3:
You say "Stop bombing my country, or I will direct my army to retaliate."
Hamas says "Fuck You!"
Day 4:
You say "Stop bombing my country, or I will direct my army to retaliate."
Hamas says "Fuck You!"
and etc.
Do you wait until one of those bombs DOES kill a civilian and face the wrath of the people? Or do you say "Ya know what, I gave you a fair chance to stop what's going to happen, but you've continued to ignore my warnings, and I must retaliate." OR, do you choose another tactic?
Remember, Hamas can target Israel's military without too much danger of hitting a civilian. Israel doesn't share the same luxury because Hamas, and militant groups like it hide amongst their own people so they can cry fowl when retaliations occur.
Now, I would say that a week's worth of "Stop or I'll bomb you back." is a fair warning against random bombs that, granted, weren't causing death at the time, but posed a threat in the near future.
Given that, regardless of who was originally in the "wrong", I put to you that Hamas CHOSE to allow it's civilians to die when they ignored Israel's repeated warnings. They had a chance to prevent Palestinian deaths, and they made the decision to pick a fight.
Posted by Xavier Moriarty on Jan-07-2009 03:20:
quote:
Originally posted by Spam
Had Hamas stopped firing rockets, there would not have been a blown-up school 10 days later, would there?
Again, I was looking for a serious response, not an emotional sidestep. So lets try this again, because no one has answered my question yet (and this is the 3rd or 4th time I've asked it):
You are Israel's PM/Defense Minister/Whatever (lets pretend).
You take out a military supply tunnel, and kill 6 Hamas militants.
Hamas retaliates by targeting your civilian populations.
Day 1:
You say "Stop bombing my country, or I will direct my army to retaliate."
Hamas says "Fuck You!"
Day 2:
You say "Stop bombing my country, or I will direct my army to retaliate."
Hamas says "Fuck You!"
Day 3:
You say "Stop bombing my country, or I will direct my army to retaliate."
Hamas says "Fuck You!"
Day 4:
You say "Stop bombing my country, or I will direct my army to retaliate."
Hamas says "Fuck You!"
and etc.
Do you wait until one of those bombs DOES kill a civilian and face the wrath of the people? Or do you say "Ya know what, I gave you a fair chance to stop what's going to happen, but you've continued to ignore my warnings, and I must retaliate." OR, do you choose another tactic?
Remember, Hamas can target Israel's military without too much danger of hitting a civilian. Israel doesn't share the same luxury because Hamas, and militant groups like it hide amongst their own people so they can cry fowl when retaliations occur.
Now, I would say that a week's worth of "Stop or I'll bomb you back." is a fair warning against random bombs that, granted, weren't causing death at the time, but posed a threat in the near future.
Given that, regardless of who was originally in the "wrong", I put to you that Hamas CHOSE to allow it's civilians to die when they ignored Israel's repeated warnings. They had a chance to prevent Palestinian deaths, and they made the decision to pick a fight.
i have no emotional connection to this conflict except that children are being slaughtered. im Serbian and if i was biased at all i would be pro-israeli.
i cannot answer your question, im not smart enough. but here's somebody who actually can:
some of you are fucking short sighted big time. you think hamas is the cause of this ????
but yeah, its much easier to point finger
Posted by gummybear on Jan-07-2009 03:24:
*sigh* here we go..
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Z
You live in a bubble if you think my opinion is unique.
i don't think your opinion is unique..i think it's retarded..
You have to be pretty retarded to get offended if someone calls you antisemitic. Only insecure jews would call you that in today's day, which doesn't mean anything.
maybe you don't mind labels like that..but i do...it's not something you want to be knowns as...
Your bias and emotional attachment to the topic discredits most things you say. You should have just stayed out of the discussion.
yes, i do get emotional when innocent people are being attacked....and yes, i am biased towards governments that choose to flex their muscles and bomb innocent civillians..sue me.....why can't you believe that my conclusions and ideas come from research and study as well..?
The only thing i share with the palestinians is my religion..and to be honest..i feel it is asinine to choose a side based on that..how utterly ridiculous and backwards...if we were to believe that theory..i would have to support the terrorists that bombed the twin towers..since they were muslim...
btw, i have been involved in this thread from the beginning and have every right to voice my thoughts..
They did, until they gave all their rights to Hamas.
once again...this is your opinion based on what?
You can only use a sentence like this if you actually discredit (most of) what I have said.
I do discredit what you said in the post because it is not based on fact..the only way it would be fact is if you had taken a poll and had spoken to every muslim and jew in this world...
Posted by Spam on Jan-07-2009 03:26:
quote:
Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
you sure about that???
lets wait and see what will usa do when somebody strikes at israel(and we all know it will happen, and fast). somebody who actually can do some serious damage.
you really think arab countries will wait much longer??
Do you really think that Arab nations care about Palestine? Personally, I'm skeptical.
If they did, wouldn't they have worked out an arrangement back in 1948, when this occurred:
Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and neighboring Arab states eliminated Palestine as a distinct territory. With the establishment of Israel, the remaining lands were divided amongst Egypt, Syria and Jordan. The Arab governments at this point refused to set up a State of Palestine.
