TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- Israeli air strikes on Gaza kill 192
Pages (25): « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 [19] 20 21 22 23 24 25 »

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Egypt's dictator Mubarak is paid off by the US (2nd highest recipient of US aide after Israel) and so they go along with whatever US-Israeli interests in the region are. If the Egyptian people had their say, Egypt wouldn't be blockading Gaza. Good? LOL. How about letting me answer your question before you answer it for me? You don't have any choice but to deal with Gaza. Your government can try to ignore Hamas all it wants but it isn't going to go away. Once again, if your government understood that a collapsed economy, broken (actually destroyed by Israel) state institutions, lead to angry young unemployed men who have an axe to grind. Israel's blockade hasn't weakened Hamas. It's a recruitment bonanza for them. They should have no problem replacing all their lost personnel. Ironic and sad...Your government's policies are backfiring right before your very eyes.

You see. that's exactly the point. You're making it sound like I care for them, like Israel is responsible for Gaza and its people.
Well, that's wrong.
I don't care how much Mubarak is paid (if at all - you didn't mention any sources) - Egypt is still bording Gaza and is a part of that "blockade" you talk about all the time - which makes it equally responsible, as you see it, for the situation at the moment.
And let me say it again: If Israel wants Gaza border sealed, it will be sealed. I don't f*cking care for the Gaza economy as much as I don't care for Frace's or Britain's, or lets say Jordan's economy. The fact is, when rockets are launched at me, doesn't matter the reason, I want the responsible people for those launches to meet their 70-something virgins (with the kind help of IDF) and leave me alone.

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T which is what israel is doing currently.

A deal is a mutual agreement. All your country is doing is bombing them into oblivion creating more hatred against you.

quote:

Originally posted by buitre You see. that's exactly the point. You're making it sound like I care for them, like Israel is responsible for Gaza and its people. Well, that's wrong.

I could not care less how much you care for anyone.

quote:

I don't care how much Mubarak is paid (if at all - you didn't mention any sources) - Egypt is still bording Gaza and is a part of that "blockade" you talk about all the time - which makes it equally responsible, as you see it, for the situation at the moment.

You want a source? Here's your source...http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/features/egypt/

You'r right, Egypt's corrupt dictator regime shares the blame for the Gaza concentration camp. Too bad the USA/Israel depends on dictator regimes to further their Middle East agenda.

quote:

And let me say it again: If Israel wants Gaza border sealed, it will be sealed. I don't f*cking care for the Gaza economy as much as I don't care for Frace's or Britain's, or lets say Jordan's economy. The fact is, when rockets are launched at me, doesn't matter the reason, I want the responsible people for those launches to meet their 70-something virgins (with the kind help of IDF) and leave me alone.

You want to be left alone? HA...HA...HA...So do the Palestinians...

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You want to be left alone? HA...HA...HA...So do the Palestinians...

If Hamas would just stop firing rockets at Isreal, I guarantee you no Israeli will ever set foot in Gaza again.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton A deal is a mutual agreement. All your country is doing is bombing them into oblivion creating more hatred against you.

they attack israel, israel attacks them.. sounds mutual enough to me.

edit: p.s. haven't noticed earlier, but please don't call it "my country" or include me in the group 'israel', there are reasons i'm leaving it in a couple of weeks.

1 to 100 is mutual

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi 1 to 100 is mutual

mutual and equal are not the same thing.

so i guess my post made sense

this is really the first time I have seen this many people from all walks of the Jewish community opposing the actions of Israel.

perhaps this can serve as a wake up call to those who can bend logic in Israels favor untill the end of time

this problem(shit that Israel has been getting itself into for a while) is not going away anytime soon, and one would be a fool to think so.

242...try following it sometime

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi so i guess my post made sense

ah, so your "1 to 100 is mutual" post was in agreement with my post that preceded it?

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T ah, so your "1 to 100 is mutual" post was in agreement with my post that preceded it?

in agreement to degrade "sounds mutual enough to me"

if u want to get technifikal aiiii

Poor Krypton, why cant these posters leave him alone?

BTW Krypton, there are over 6 million people living in metro San Francisco-San Jose, BUT only 800,000 live in the city of San Francisco proper, which is considered VERY densely populated. Let me say it again: V E R Y densely populated hence the relevancy to your argument on Gaza.

I like how Egypt's leader is suddenly corrupt in Krypton's eyes. Pretty much every Arab country is ruled by a monarch or dictator. Why arent you poiting fingers at Assad in Syria whose really reposinble for the assasination of Hariri in Lebanon? Or what about Kadafi in Libya whose responsible for the Pan Am flight that was shot down in the 80s?

Lastly, the reality is that Hamas burned their bridges with a lot of the Arab countries. Jordan expelled Hamas back in 1999, and Hamas also has a rift with Saudi Arabia.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi in agreement to degrade "sounds mutual enough to me" if u want to get technifikal aiiii

do explain, how does stating an irrelevant fact regarding mutuality degrade my point?

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles Poor Krypton, why cant these posters leave him alone? BTW Krypton, there are over 6 million people living in metro San Francisco-San Jose, BUT only 800,000 live in the city of San Francisco proper, which is considered VERY densely populated. Let me say it again: V E R Y densely populated hence the relevancy to your argument on Gaza.

7000 people in one square mile sounds pretty fucking dense to me...

quote:

I like how Egypt's leader is suddenly corrupt in Krypton's eyes. Pretty much every Arab country is ruled by a monarch or dictator. Why arent you poiting fingers at Assad in Syria whose really reposinble for the assasination of Hariri in Lebanon? Or what about Kadafi in Libya whose responsible for the Pan Am flight that was shot down in the 80s?

Is your argument so without foundation, that all you can do is (attack me)/(address me personally)? LOL. Please, continue bringing in completely irrelevant crap to the discussion, attacking me, and completely ignoring/(not addressing) my valid points.

quote:

Lastly, the reality is that Hamas burned their bridges with a lot of the Arab countries. Jordan expelled Hamas back in 1999, and Hamas also has a rift with Saudi Arabia.

Jordan and Saudi Arabia...both US/Israel recipients of HUGE amounts of aid and thus will go along with anything they want. At least Jordan isn't a theocratic dictatorship. Again, funny how the US and Israel depend on dictators to advance their Middle East agenda. Hypocrites...

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T do explain, how does stating an irrelevant fact regarding mutuality degrade my point?

you're saying, sounds mutual.

attack 13----attack 1200.

Im agreeing you with the wording of what you said, but the number is relevent, where does the madness end. 1-1000. 1-10,000. 1-1,000,000???

your reasoning is a ticket to support endless killings till no end.

2 ******s living off their piss hiding in side some cave in Gaza after everyone is killed but them will still muster the strength to fire an innacurate useless rocket at some random patch of nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi you're saying, sounds mutual. attack 13----attack 1200. Im agreeing you with the wording of what you said, but the number is relevent, where does the madness end. 1-1000. 1-10,000. 1-1,000,000??? your reasoning is a ticket to support endless killings till no end. 2 ******s living off their piss hiding in side some cave in Gaza after everyone is killed but them will still muster the strength to fire an innacurate useless rocket at some random patch of nothing.

i'm not gonna reiterate the arguments on why proportionality is irrelevant (and have you reiterate the counterarguments, and so on), it's already been done in this thread, probably more than once.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Jew hater? LOL. Riiiiight... News flash, Israel also violated the cease fire. Israel has already opened a huge can of worms with this horrible operation. Don't you see this as counter-productive? Hamas should have no trouble finding new recruits......funny...but also very sad.

My bad... I fail to remember the times you went to bat for the Israeli side of anything, ever. You use the word "Zionist" more than Ahmadinejad.

If the IDF finished the job and roots out Hamas, or at least destroys it's ability to function, I definitely don't see their actions as counter-productive. If they lifted the blockade and pumped in free energy to Gaza, do you think all of the people who have been conditioned their whole lives would suddenly stop hating the Jews or view them as humans? There are more "new recruits" being brainwashed every day with those fucking childrens cartoons featuring the rabbit and the fake Mickey Mouse telling 2 and 3 year olds that Jews are pigs and want to eat the flesh of Palestinians than there are from the IDF tryin to stop Hamas.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss My bad... I fail to remember the times you went to bat for the Israeli side of anything, ever. You use the word "Zionist" more than Ahmadinejad.

So because I am against the actions of a state, that automatically means I am a racist? Sorry, but i don't sink that low, or low enough to call people racists for holding a certain point of view which isn't even related to racism.

quote:

If the IDF finished the job and roots out Hamas, or at least destroys it's ability to function, I definitely don't see their actions as counter-productive. If they lifted the blockade and pumped in free energy to Gaza, do you think all of the people who have been conditioned their whole lives would suddenly stop hating the Jews or view them as humans? There are more "new recruits" being brainwashed every day with those fucking childrens cartoons featuring the rabbit and the fake Mickey Mouse telling 2 and 3 year olds that Jews are pigs and want to eat the flesh of Palestinians than there are from the IDF tryin to stop Hamas.

The IDF finished what job? You actually think Hamas hasn't prepared for this? LOL. The Executive Force specialize in assymetrical warfare. I know you don't see turning Gaza into a militant factory of pissed off young unemployed Arabs as counter-productive, but in reality, Operation Cast Lead, will be an absolute failure and is VERY counterproductive. It will NOT bring lasting peace. And anyone who thinks violence will bring about peace is in some serious need of psychological help.

Yea, the cartoons are fucked up, what's your point? The hundreds of thousands of illegal Zionist settlers believe they have a right to steal internationally recognized Palestinian land. And now you'r surprised when Palestinians decide to resist? LOL...

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton ...And anyone who thinks violence will bring about peace is in some serious need of psychological help.

that includes the palestinians too (and no, not just the hamas - as pointed out earlier in the thread, some of the attacks on israel have been unrelated to the hamas).

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T that includes the palestinians too (and no, not just the hamas - as pointed out earlier in the thread, some of the attacks on israel have been unrelated to the hamas).

It sure does. But when we're talking about the current situation, it's not Israel who is being occupied and blockaded.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I understand the argument, I just think it�s a moot point because such organisations will always do this, knowing that if/when retribution comes it will make israel look bad. Im not criticising their decision to engage in warfare in population centres, im criticising their decision to invade based on the low level threat they have been enduring.

That's just it -- I don't agree that it "makes Israel look bad." I don't see Israel as being responsible for those casualties; rather, it is the terrorists who have provoked the response that are to blame. Of course, if Israel's response went above and beyond what was required to eliminate the terrorist threat, they would certainly be responsible for the excess... but the problem is precisely the opposite. Israel's typical response falls well short of what is required to eliminate that threat -- and if Israel is deserving of blame, and I think that they are, it is for that failing, not for the fact that they endeavor to defend themselves in the first place!

quote:

I never said it was "punishment"; but state's have an obligation to grade the threats to their property and people and respond accordingly. At least, that's how mature states operate in regards to foreign policy or international relations. By your reasoning any state should be able to do whatever they wish as long as the force is appropriate to accomplish whatever aim they desire. Not a very wise yardstick to use world-wide I wouldn't have thought.

If that aim amounts to the elimination of an ongoing attack against the state, then absolutely!

If we accept the premise that a nation's response must be "proportional" to the damage thus far caused to persons and property as part of an ongoing attack against that nation, then a nation is utterly powerless to defend itself, so long as its enemies attacks do not pass some ill-defined threshold while they no doubt seek to maximize the collateral damage that would result if responsive action were taken.

That seems an absurd enough result to reject the premise out of hand, but a further consideration of the practical consequences of such a policy yields even greater reason to reject it. Namely, it creates a state of perpetual conflict -- one side is free to attack the other with impunity, and the other must apparently simply absorb the losses inflicted without so much as lifting a finger. It is obvious that no meaningful peace process can move forward alongside such a backdrop. And the consequence is that the palestinians continue to exist in poverty and political limbo, and Israel continues to suffer utterly needless casualties.

On the other hand, there is no real problem with a policy by which a nation may use a degree of force necessary to terminate the attacks against it -- if the force required produces damage too "disproportionate" to the damage that the attacks have been doing, then there is an easy solution. Namely, those who were attacking that nation in the first place can realize that it's a losing equation and simply stop doing so. Unlike the alternative, this is a result which actually has at least some small potential for actual long-term progress toward a lasting peace.

The choice between the two alternative approaches seems simple enough to me...

quote:

The last time I checked, the forceful removal of a people from their land is defined as genocide as far as the UN is concerned. And this is what israel has been doing gradually for the last several decades. How many UN resolutions have called for the abandonment of occupied-territory settlements? How many people have been displaced to make room for jewish-only towns? I wasn't aware there had to be "X amount of deaths per Y hours" to classify something as genocide?

The UN had best tread carefully in that case. I will not object if the English language responds to this attack in a "disproportionate" manner; indeed, I encourage it to terminate the UN's attack by whatever means necessary.

quote:

And why do you think current military activities will be any more successful in defeating the terrorists and terrorism than any of the failed operations in the past? Whilst I certainly blame hamas for their lack of commitment to politics without violence, israel's continued prescence in the occupied territories is hardly a blameless exercise. In other words, why is your emphasis purely on hamas' rather insiginifant commitment to violence, and not on israel's policy of creeping expansion?

Nowhere have I stated that I expect the current military activities to be more successful than prior operations. I will assert that it is well within Israel's operational capabilities; however, I expect them to eventually cease the operation without achieving my proposed objective -- a decision which I will be highly critical of.

The reason for my emphasis is simple: one can negotiate with Israel, but not with Hamas. Therefore, one of the two culpable activities poses a very different sort of obstacle to achieving a lasting peace, which is quite clearly in the best interest of both sides. Accordingly, it is in the interest of both sides that the obstacle be removed. It is unfortunate that the removal will be costly, but simply prolonging the situation in the vain hope that it will correct itself is hardly a prudent alternative...

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Egypt's dictator Mubarak is paid off by the US (2nd highest recipient of US aide after Israel) and so they go along with whatever US-Israeli interests in the region are. If the Egyptian people had their say, Egypt wouldn't be blockading Gaza.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I could not care less how much you care for anyone.

OK, so at least you agree Israel isn't responsible for Gaza, and has the full right to close the borders with it.
That's a progress...

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You want a source? Here's your source...http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/features/egypt/ You'r right, Egypt's corrupt dictator regime shares the blame for the Gaza concentration camp.

Alright.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Too bad the USA/Israel depends on dictator regimes to further their Middle East agenda.

Huh?

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You want to be left alone? HA...HA...HA...So do the Palestinians...

Fine by me. Just tell them to not fire rockets at me.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton So because I am against the actions of a state,

If you're so against, 'the actions of a state' why aren't you against another state randomly firing thousands of rockets randomly into another?
There are others solutions other than using weapons...
Here's a radical idea, how about negotiating with your neighbors rather than using this as a platform to fulfill their ultimate goal of the destruction of Israel?
Is the dogma of Hamas' charter that thick that they can't understand how to negotiate in this modern age?
Sooner or later they're going to have to realize that Israel isn't going anywhere.
Hopefully this last smack down operation was enough for Hamas to clue in that if you poke a pitbull too long, soon or later it's going to bite.
It's just too bad Hamas has to use women and children as their shields to try and garner World support and sympathy who are the real victims of a twisted Hamas ideology.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.