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-- Liberation of Iraq has just occured
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Agreed, if all of you are concerned about the plight of the Iraqi people, then we should revisit the situation in a few months and see what life in Iraq is like then. There's no point in saying "Oh there's looting in the streets now so they were far better off under saddam" . Personally I think the Iraqis, once an interim government is set up, and the transition to an independant government occurs, will be 1 million times better off than they were under Saddam Huessien's regime.

Yeah Tito, that is what worried me about going to war. It could set a new, and possibly destructive, precedent for international affairs in the world. It could be like the US opening Pandora's box; you're put in the position of safeguarding the box, and are repeatedly warned against open it, but eventually you couldn't resist. You do and all this unfathomable shit comes out. You then try close it, but all that's left inside is Hope.

So far so good, I'm just hoping it stays this course.

I thought this thread may be of some historical significance as well:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...&threadid=25247

How many Afghani's are swarming the streets in praise of the US's commitment to sustained "liberation" now?

Well, no one expects them to be celebrating forever. But it is a fact that the US is rebuilding that country and doing a good job of it to. I watched a National Geographic Explorer documentry about two months ago that followed some US special forces and the reconstruction over the last year. They built the first schools that some of these villages had ever seen, they built wells, destroyed underground bunkers, built houses, places of worship, and farm land.

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Originally posted by tranzformer ok let me get this straight, if u are from croatia, if the US had not gotten involved in ur region of the world, a whole race whould have been exterminated by Mr. Milosivic. so was that a lie, that he wasnt commiting genocide, not seen on such a large dgree since Hitler. You know what you are, your not pro-peace, you are pro-death, pro-dictatorship, pro-genocide, pro-people not being able to live a free life by themselves. thats what u are. keep telling yourself what ever you want, but u are in denial. so Iraq doesnt have WMD??? they have them, and its a matter of time before they are found

Wtf are you talking about? When Milosevic attacked Croatia, he only managed to gain about 20% of the croatian territory, the territory which was occupied by local serbian majority anyway. He was blocked and couldn't move further, and then he attacked Bosnia. Only then didi the UN and the US appear in the picture. Besides, US encouraged a weapons sanctions against both Croatia and Serbia, which really was more beneficial to Serbs than to Croatians, as most of the JNA was serbian-controlled.

And when we gained back the serbian occupied territory we did it without any outside aid. Infact, UN and the US were against that military operation.

Now, as far as genocide goes, many people died, yes, but it wasn't the biggest one after the WW2, as there were many events with much larger amount of casualties like Cambodia, Rwanda, Vietnam, Korea,... just to name a few. Even in Iraq, many more people were gassed by Saddam than were killed here. And I don't see your point about the race, because afaik, everybody from former Yu was white/caucasian.

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Originally posted by Renegade I thought this thread may be of some historical significance as well: http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...&threadid=25247 How many Afghani's are swarming the streets in praise of the US's commitment to sustained "liberation" now?

And how many of them are getting beaten and killed by the taliban as before? At least they're getting humanitarian aid now as opposed to the past. Are you saying they were better off under the taliban?

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 And I don't see your point about the race, because afaik, everybody from former Yu was white/caucasian.

But of different ethnicity.

Fuzzy mate, right now I would have to disagree with you on the US' rebuilding effort in Afghanistan. Though many small projects that help in the everyday lives of people are taking place, the adminstration of the country as a whole remains in a mess. That's one reason why many Taliban leaders and vigilantes are still running around, and that is where the real nation building has to take place. The US budget for aid is also constantly dwindling, and Hamid Karzai(who more resembles now 'the governor of Kabul' than the President of Afghanistan) even had to come to DC a month ago to plead for the US not 'to forget' their role in that country's rebuilding.

Here's an article I found today:

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Taliban Reviving Structure in Afghanistan By KATHY GANNON Associated Press Writer April 7, 2003, 12:06 PM EDT KANDAHAR, Afghanistan -- Before executing the International Red Cross worker, the Taliban gunmen made a satellite telephone call to their superior for instructions: Kill him? Kill him, the order came back, and Ricardo Munguia, whose body was found with 20 bullet wounds last month, became the first foreign aid worker to die in Afghanistan since the Taliban's ouster from power 18 months ago. The manner of his death suggests the Taliban is not only determined to remain a force in this country, but is reorganizing and reviving its command structure. There is little to stop them. The soldiers and police who were supposed to be the bedrock of a stable postwar Afghanistan have gone unpaid for months and are drifting away. At a time when the United States is promising a reconstructed democratic postwar Iraq, many Afghans are remembering hearing similar promises not long ago. Instead, what they see is thieving warlords, murder on the roads, and a resurgence of Taliban vigilantism. "It's like I am seeing the same movie twice and no one is trying to fix the problem," said Ahmed Wali Karzai, the brother of Afghanistan's president and his representative in southern Kandahar. "What was promised to Afghans with the collapse of the Taliban was a new life of hope and change. But what was delivered? Nothing. Everyone is back in business." Karzai said reconstruction has been painfully slow -- a canal repaired, a piece of city road paved, a small school rebuilt. "There have been no significant changes for people," he said. "People are tired of seeing small, small projects. I don't know what to say to people anymore." When the Taliban ruled they forcibly conscripted young men. "Today I can say 'we don't take your sons away by force to fight at the front line,'" Karzai remarked. "But that's about all I can say." But progress also is a question of perspective. Capt. Trish Morris, spokeswoman for the Coalition Joint Civil-Military Operations Task Force, said civil affairs teams have spent up to $13 million on projects affecting the daily lives of Afghans. "That may not sound like a lot of money, but that's hundreds of schools and clinics and bridges and wells all over Afghanistan," Morris said in Kabul. "Some might say not a lot is being done," but the U.S. government, the United Nations and the private aid agencies "are all working very hard," Morris said. "It's just going to take some time, because 23 years of war has destroyed a lot of things." From safe havens in neighboring Pakistan, aided by militant Muslim groups there, the Taliban launched their revival to coincide with the war in Iraq and capitalize on Muslim anger over the U.S. invasion, say Afghan officials. Karzai said the Taliban are allied with rebel commander Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, supported by Pakistan and financed by militant Arabs. The attacks have targeted foreigners and the threats have been directed toward Afghans working for international organizations. Abdul Salam is a military commander for the government. Last month he was stopped at a Taliban checkpoint in the Shah Wali Kot district of Kandahar and became a witness to the killing of Munguia, a 39-year-old water engineer from El Salvador. After stopping Munguia and his three-vehicle convoy, gunmen made a phone call to Mullah Dadullah, a powerful former Taliban commander who happens to have an artificial leg provided by the Red Cross. Mimicking a telephone receiver by cupping a hand on his ear, Salam recalled the gunmen's side of the conversation. "I heard him say Mullah Dadullah," he said. "I heard him ask for instructions." When the conversation ended the Taliban moved quickly, Salam said. They shoved Munguia behind one of the vehicles, siphoned gasoline from the tanks and used it to set the vehicles on fire. Munguia was standing nearby. One Taliban raised his Kalashnikov rifle and fired at Munguia. Then they told the others: "You are working with kafirs (unbelievers). You are slaves of Karzai and Karzai is a slave to America." "This time we will let you go because you are Afghan," Salam remembered them saying, "but if we find you again and you are still working for the government we will kill you." In the latest killing in southern Afghanistan, gunmen on Thursday shot to death Haji Gilani, a close Karzai ally, in southern Uruzgan province. Gilani was one of the first people to shelter Karzai when he secretly entered Afghanistan to foment a rebellion against the Taliban in late 2001. International workers in Kandahar don't feel safe anymore and some have been moved from the Kandahar region to safer areas, said John Oerum, southwest security officer for the United Nations. But Oerum is trying to find a way to stay in southern Afghanistan. To abandon it would be to let the rebel forces win, he says. The Red Cross, with 150 foreign workers in Afghanistan, have suspended operations indefinitely. Today most Afghans say their National Army seems a distant dream while the U.S.-led coalition continues to feed and finance warlords for their help in hunting for Taliban and al-Qaida fighters. Karzai, the president's brother, says: "We have to pay more attention at the district level, build the administration. We know who these Taliban are, but we don't have the people to report them when they return." Khan Mohammed, commander of Kandahar's 2nd Corps, says his soldiers haven't been paid in seven months, and his fighting force has dwindled. The Kandahar police chief, Mohammed Akram, said he wants 50 extra police in each district where the Taliban have a stronghold. But he says his police haven't been paid in months and hundreds have just gone home. "There is no real administration all over Afghanistan, no army, no police," said Mohammed. "The people do not want the Taliban, but we have to unite and build, but we are not."

Don't jump to conclusions. The information isn't there yet. For EITHER side.

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Originally posted by Vesa But I wish that the Neoconservatives would be stopped as soon as possible. The Iraqis fighting back harder might have helped in this respect. But on second thoughts, the Iraqis were the wrong people to oppose the Neoconservatives. The Iraqis have been under a dictatorship. They can't perceive the threat caused by the Neoconservatives. The collapse of Saddam's regime was a happy event for almost all surviving Iraqis. There are other countries which will be a better opposition to the Neoconservatives, so my final verdict is that I'm 100% happy that the Iraqis didn't try to fight harder. I would have been 110% happy if Saddam had been eliminated before the invasion began, or if the Iraqis had thrown in the towel within the first two days, but unfortunately this didn't happen.

Ah yes the dreaded, secretive neoconservative group that has siezed control of Congress and the Presidancy . Funny how someone from Finland is the only person to pick up on this plot. You would think that at least the French, Russians, the Arabs or whoever would have a louder voice in this.

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This invasion was the first step to Pax Americana. For the Iraqi people this Pax Americana may better than Saddam. That's probably the reason why many Iraqis are now celebrating. But for many other countries, Pax Americana is disastrous. It would result in America having control over the whole world. If this Big Brother was your average America, it might not be so bad. But what if it will be Bush Jr's, Perle's and Wolfowitz's America. Do you really want them to force their ultraconservative values and sick ideas of democracy on the whole world? A world without free sex, no drugs, no clubs, only a pretentious and religious worldwide appreciation of Bush Jr's values. A world in which a billion Muslims would become mad suicide bombers after being subjugated to serve the interests of one fanatical party (Likud).

You're losing me here ... so the neoconservative american gov't has prohibited free sex, clubs, etc.? Wow I wasn't aware this neoconservative was so pervasive all throughout american culture.

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I suspect that the American Government had prepared a propaganda campaign to show celebrating Iraqis as soon as Saddam is overthrown. I don't doubt that most Iraqis are now genuinely very happy, but just wanted to remind you that no other kind of ending could have been possible (with the possible exception if Bush Jr & co. had screwed up REALLY bad). Many people in the Western World love winners. These people don't have enough inner strength to rely on cold logic or on their own intuition, but instead they want to side with the winners to avoid responsibility.

So why has al-jazeera broadcast similar news footage? Why have they even commented on the jubilation and thanks that the Iraqi civilians are giving to US marines? Maybe neoconservatives have penetrated even al-jazeera!

Hey, Veasa...Do us a favour and just be frank with us. Don't use the words "Neoconservatives" anymore when all you're referring to is the Jewish clique in Washngton. Perle, Wolfowitz, Perle, Wolfowitz, Perle, Fleischer, Perle, WOlfowitz. Likud (where the hell ddid THAT come from? And do you have the slightest idea about this party to call it "fundamentalistic"? Remind me who made peace with Egypt..)
I seriously overestimated you in this regard

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You're losing me here ... so the neoconservative american gov't has prohibited free sex, clubs, etc.? Wow I wasn't aware this neoconservative was so pervasive all throughout american culture.

Well, as for clubs, there is a proposed RAVE act...

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Originally posted by JudgeJulez Fuzzy mate, right now I would have to disagree with you on the US' rebuilding effort in Afghanistan. Though many small projects that help in the everyday lives of people are taking place, the adminstration of the country as a whole remains in a mess. That's one reason why many Taliban leaders and vigilantes are still running around, and that is where the real nation building has to take place. The US budget for aid is also constantly dwindling, and Hamid Karzai(who more resembles now 'the governor of Kabul' than the President of Afghanistan) even had to come to DC a month ago to plead for the US not 'to forget' their role in that country's rebuilding.

So true, and I see the samething for Iraq, though there's lot more money that will come out from Iraq so I don't know.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, as for clubs, there is a proposed RAVE act...

Which isn't gonna get passed! Do you really think that wolfowitz, rumsfeld, and whoever are siting around worrying about RAVES and passing laws as trivial (in the grand scheme of things) as that??? Well I can play the blame game too ... damn rumsfeld and wolfowitz, I got 2 Flat tires this past weekend because they were trying to impose their NEOCONSERVATIVE doctrine on my goddamn liberal tires. Why won't they leave me in peace!!!

I think people have a misconception of how things are done in the US. People believe that every law that gets passed is thought up and goes through the president. The fact is is that there are over 500 legislators that can propose and pass laws ...

Vesa ... you know my views on this whole neo-conservative movement so I'm not going to comment much. I just don't see the link between like republican thinking, and an all pervasive movment that is controlling the US. I just want to point out that I didn't make that last statement that you quoted.

Republicans in Florida don't want to give scholarships to any student that comes from terrorists countries ( Iraq, Iran, Siria etc .. ). And this is a law that is been looked into the REPUBLICAN owned house of reps. of Florida. The claim was that why should taxpayers in Florida pay for this kidds coming from those countries?!?!(Ofcourse they are US citizens) .. Bush said clearly that it's not against the people but the regime, yet, the Republicans in Florida are all over this issue.. it's an idea of how this republicans can get, neonconservatives minds..

I think u overestimate the "Likud" power and its connection to the american neoconservative/christian fundamentalists. It shall be noted that the overwhleming majority of American Jews votes for and actively supports the Democrats as much as their Israeli "counterpart", the Labour Party.

But since this whole Neoconservative issue fascinates me, I'd like you to read a bit about Straussianism, supposedely the philosophy behind the neo-conservative movement.

http://home.earthlink.net/~karljahn/Strauss.htm

http://www.straussian.net/

edit: in the second link, under "teachers" ull find our dear friend wolfowitz, as well as Francis Fukuyama and others of the neoc. gang. They do have some brains u should know.

Interesting reading.

But regarding to other posts:
Maybe you ppl should ask ppl of Czechoslovakia, Romania, and other ex-soviet countries what it's like living as they did under Stalin. Shit they were supporting the war against Iraq. Nobody knows the situation better than they do.

thanx for the pics beatfreak

this site is interesting:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tri...s/s_128200.html

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Originally posted by Cracka-X Interesting reading. But regarding to other posts: Maybe you ppl should ask ppl of Czechoslovakia, Romania, and other ex-soviet countries what it's like living as they did under Stalin. Shit they were supporting the war against Iraq. Nobody knows the situation better than they do.

Well, if you ask the people there, you might not get the answer you expect, because regardless of the fact their governments sided up with the US, the majority of the population was against the Iraqi war.

why do I get the sense that people on this board think the war is over when in fact its far from it. There's still 10 divisions of iraqi army around tikrit and mossoul.

I can understand that bringing down a statue is very symbolic, but its not over yet. Even some parts of Baghdad are still under Iraqi control.

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Originally posted by ahlamalek why do I get the sense that people on this board think the war is over when in fact its far from it. There's still 10 divisions of iraqi army around tikrit and mossoul. I can understand that bringing down a statue is very symbolic, but its not over yet. Even some parts of Baghdad are still under Iraqi control.

True....the media plays it like a victory by bombarding million with the bent statue of saddam Hussein!

I gaurantee you... this war is far from over... just like in afghanistan..

you're right, I was naive to say liberation of IRAQ, when I should've been more specific.

It's still a big step to come this far in 3 weeks.



(I'd never expect someone Anti-Bush say something like that.)

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