the one and only Matrix Reloaded plot discussion thread

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-- the one and only Matrix Reloaded plot discussion thread
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Posted by ampburner on Jun-08-2003 13:30:

but what about that part of the dialogue I highlighted. when Neo asks if the 'mother' is the oracle, he answers 'please...' as in please don't waste my time son, you have a lot to learn, right? or am I reading it wrong? the way I read it is that the architect denies the claim that the oracle would be the mother...

I'd have to watch the film again to be sure though, I didn't pay any particular attention to the intonation of his voice when he said it... reading the excerpt leaves it a bit ambiguous...

Posted by ampburner on Jun-08-2003 13:32:

quote:
Originally posted by kr00t0n
Why Zion is rebuilt:

To ensure that the machines can still have their power source, and to restart yet another debugging run. This cycle will come to an end when the code is good enough to release Matrix Professional Edition. (or something to that effect )

I did have more ideas, but I'm a little tired now to remember them all, but that was the gist of it.

Matrix XP

Posted by kr00t0n on Jun-08-2003 14:31:

quote:
Originally posted by ampburner
Matrix XP

HAHAHAHA, and then they'll still need to release Service Pack 1

Posted by [mart] on Jun-08-2003 15:26:

Posted by whitesmoke on Jun-08-2003 18:54:

quote:
Originally posted by ampburner
but what about that part of the dialogue I highlighted. when Neo asks if the 'mother' is the oracle, he answers 'please...' as in please don't waste my time son, you have a lot to learn, right? or am I reading it wrong? the way I read it is that the architect denies the claim that the oracle would be the mother...

I'd have to watch the film again to be sure though, I didn't pay any particular attention to the intonation of his voice when he said it... reading the excerpt leaves it a bit ambiguous...

The architect says that the mother of the matrix was put into place to understand and study the human psyche. do we ever see the oacle doing this? we only ever see her intercting with neo (although we know of her interacting with trinity and morpheus).

about the oracle...she does not really see the future. it is more that she just knows what is going to happen b/c she has seen it all happen 5 times before. however, why is she still around if she is not the mother? how has she survived the past destruction of the matricies and still known what happened in them? for that matter how does anyone in the matrix (ie mergovian) remember about what happened in the past matrices? if the matrix is destroyed, does the architect keep certian programs alive or are they all deleted? if they are all restarted then people ike the oracle and mergovian (speelling)have to be outside the matrix in someway so that they can leave the martix when it is destroyed and come back when it is rebuilt. if they are outside the matrix then were are they? in zion (probably a stretch but i am just writing in stream on conscious right now)

back to the oracle predicting the future...she lets them know the path to take based on their previous actions. is she just helping the architect recycle the system by leading neo on the path that he has already taken. and what about in the first matrix? how did she know what to say to neo then?

another interesting thing to think about it the possibility of someone being higher than the architect. Since the architect's purpose is to build a world in which he enslaves humans he seems to me as more of a devil and not a god figrue. if he is the devil then is there a god figure? is there someone he is struggling against?

i realize that there are contradticting points above but i am just statign a bunch of things that might help all you come to some conclusions or other realizations b/c that is what i am trying to do myslef. lots of things need to be answered in the next movie.

Posted by ampburner on Jun-08-2003 23:35:

quote:
Originally posted by whitesmoke
The architect says that the mother of the matrix was put into place to understand and study the human psyche. do we ever see the oacle doing this? we only ever see her intercting with neo (although we know of her interacting with trinity and morpheus).

exactly, another reason why I don't think she is the mother.
I think that leaves two possibilities: 1. Persephone, and 2. Trinity.

I'd never even considered persephone until I read the posts above, and now that I think of it, it would make sense. She is a program for sure (though you can never be sure ) and of all the 'programs' in the film she has the most affinity to human emotions (craving for a touch, a kiss, ETC ) which could be explained by her being a program designed to investigate human nature.

2nd possibility I would think of is trinity, but this could only be true if the desert of the real (zion) is another matrix on top of the level of the obvious matrix. Assuming (and I have to stress I'm only assuming this for the purpose of speculation) that zion is also a virtual world, that holds human minds aswell as computer programs.... would trininty not be THE ultimate program to research the emotions of human beings, and neo in particular? I mean, she's even... you know

but that's probably a bit too far fetched

quote:

about the oracle...she does not really see the future. it is more that she just knows what is going to happen b/c she has seen it all happen 5 times before. however, why is she still around if she is not the mother? how has she survived the past destruction of the matricies and still known what happened in them? for that matter how does anyone in the matrix (ie mergovian) remember about what happened in the past matrices? if the matrix is destroyed, does the architect keep certian programs alive or are they all deleted? if they are all restarted then people ike the oracle and mergovian (speelling)have to be outside the matrix in someway so that they can leave the martix when it is destroyed and come back when it is rebuilt. if they are outside the matrix then were are they? in zion (probably a stretch but i am just writing in stream on conscious right now)

Easy. if you think of the matrix as an Operating system, think logically... what would you do if you were to upgrade from W98 to XP and wanted to keep all your previous files (knowledge, experience, history, files, call it what you will.)

The answer: you back them up! same goes for the oracle and the merovingian. they're not placed outside of the matrix physically (in zion?), but they are outside of it, virtually. on a hard drive, or burnt CD-rom

quote:

back to the oracle predicting the future...she lets them know the path to take based on their previous actions. is she just helping the architect recycle the system by leading neo on the path that he has already taken. and what about in the first matrix? how did she know what to say to neo then?

another easy one... it was an educated guess. she told neo what she thought would lead him to his 'destiny' (=purpose). She may have been wrong, or less than 100% correct, but that is no problem. If you've ever written a program, you will know that one of the basic principles of programming is trial and error, or simply put... better luck next time. The oracle did not need to know exactly what she had to say, she just had to say something logical, which would not turn out perfectly, and afterwards learn from her mistakes so she could do better next time (next version)

quote:

another interesting thing to think about it the possibility of someone being higher than the architect. Since the architect's purpose is to build a world in which he enslaves humans he seems to me as more of a devil and not a god figrue. if he is the devil then is there a god figure? is there someone he is struggling against?

interesting, isn't it. I see you read the corporate mofo article aswell? http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

let's see what he has to say about this...
"Considering that The Architect built the Matrix, you might think that he's God. Of course, he's nothing of the sort. In Gnostic theology, it is Satan, not God, who has created the world in order to imprison humanity. It is also the Architect who is unleashing the Sentinels to destroy Zion; that is, beginning the Battle of Armageddon. It is my prediction that in the third and final film, it will be revealed that there is a power behind the Architect, and that he is the one who sent the One into the Matrix. It is also my prediction that this guy will look a lot like Neo."

very interesting... neo (jesus figure) and 'god' being the same person (father,son, and the holy spirit)....

DAMN I want to see revolutions

quote:
i realize that there are contradticting points above but i am just statign a bunch of things that might help all you come to some conclusions or other realizations b/c that is what i am trying to do myslef. lots of things need to be answered in the next movie.

hehe, no worries, same goes for any of us. My trinity/mother theory is probably a crock of shit too!

Posted by FrosT on Jun-08-2003 23:35:

quote:
Originally posted by whitesmoke
however, why is she still around if she is not the mother? how has she survived the past destruction of the matricies and still known what happened in them? for that matter how does anyone in the matrix (ie mergovian) remember about what happened in the past matrices? if the matrix is destroyed, does the architect keep certian programs alive or are they all deleted? if they are all restarted then people ike the oracle and mergovian (speelling)have to be outside the matrix in someway so that they can leave the martix when it is destroyed and come back when it is rebuilt. if they are outside the matrix then were are they? in zion (probably a stretch but i am just writing in stream on conscious right now)

The matrix obviously isn't destroyed or there would be nobody left. The system needs to be restarted. All the programs and things stick around just like when you restart your PC. Zion is what needs to be rebuilt after the machines dig into it and slaughter everone (assumtion) All the programs including smith stick around after its restarted to carry out their jobs just as they did before, retaining any memory they had previously. Much like the positions of your icons on the desktop or playlist in winamp, it comes right back to how it was even after you restart. Becuase knowlege is data/code when your in the matrix anyone connected would just have their memories erased (Which seems to be possable considering cyphers deal with the agents in the first one)and wake up X(X being the time between one anomally to the next) amount of years prior and not be any wiser.

In addition when the architect says please, he could also be infering that she is not an oracle. Like please as if she can predict the future, or like calling her an oracle is laughable.

Even if she is not the mother what does that have to do with anything?

In addition I find it funny how these programs assign themselves a sex.

Posted by Psionic on Jun-08-2003 23:42:

quote:
Originally posted by FrosT
The matrix obviously isn't destroyed or there would be nobody left. The system needs to be restarted. All the programs and things stick around just like when you restart your PC. Zion is what needs to be rebuilt after the machines dig into it and slaughter everone (assumtion) All the programs including smith stick around after its restarted to carry out their jobs just as they did before, retaining any memory they had previously.

Remember the architect said that if the matrix was destroyed, they would salvage 23 people - 16 female 7 male, to start the next matrix.

Posted by FrosT on Jun-09-2003 01:28:

quote:
Originally posted by Galapidate
Remember the architect said that if the matrix was destroyed, they would salvage 23 people - 16 female 7 male, to start the next matrix.

Thats incorrect. Thats to rebuild zion not the matrix.

"select 23 individuals from the matrix to rebuild zion"

Posted by Psionic on Jun-09-2003 01:59:

oh whoops my bad

Posted by Psionic on Jun-09-2003 01:59:

edit: double post (my PC is suckin ass today)

Posted by occrider on Jun-09-2003 02:09:

Didn't the actress who played the oracle die sometime in between filming for revolutions? In which case her role in the third film might not be as orignially planned.

Posted by Psionic on Jun-09-2003 02:11:

yeah she died of cancer i heard. but that was after the filming of both movies.

Posted by whiskers on Jun-09-2003 03:31:

quote:
Originally posted by FrosT
Thats incorrect. Thats to rebuild zion not the matrix.

"select 23 individuals from the matrix to rebuild zion"

once again... why do the machines want zion rebuilt?

why not just kill all people who reject the matrix?

oh wait, i forgot, this is just a movie. sometimes things just can't be explained. but if you can, answer that, please.

Posted by occrider on Jun-09-2003 03:46:

Posted by whitesmoke on Jun-09-2003 04:02:

quote:
Originally posted by Galapidate
yeah she died of cancer i heard. but that was after the filming of both movies.

both being the first two movies. she never filmed anything for revolutions. it will be interesting to see what they do about her in the 3rd one.

Posted by whitesmoke on Jun-09-2003 04:07:

quick thing i just thought about. remember how the architect states that the first matrix failed b/c it was so perfect that the a lot of people rejected it. you think this means that the first zion was the largest? isnt it the people rejecting the world and knowing that something is wrong with it that causes them to "free their mind." i know this probably has nothign to do with the plot but it just came to me.

one more thing. so do the agents all remember the previous matrices? i would assume that they do but then again they never make any comments about dealing with neo before. do they?

Posted by whiskers on Jun-09-2003 05:04:

quote:
Originally posted by whitesmoke
one more thing. so do the agents all remember the previous matrices? i would assume that they do but then again they never make any comments about dealing with neo before. do they?

actually, they do - the very first fight we see, when the agents say that "he is still... only human" they also mention something like "exactly like the old times", "well, not EXACTLY"

personally, i think the agents are one of the most complicated parts of the matrix, especially the way they become a subplot in Reloaded. the architect never mentions them at all and i'd expect him to.
was it obvious that the Keymaker was one of those programs that the oracle mentioned, the haywire programs that are meant for deletion? Smith was a haywire program too, but he was more than that - a virus. and no one tried to delete him.

and about the oracle, i heard someone say they might do CGI... but i REALLY doubt that's true.

and, man, what was up with merovingian and that cake scene? and the whole cause and effect stuff (which was referenced in the first part - remember the vase scene?), i think that's gonna be one of the main themes in the Revolutions

i think all 3 matrix movies would be like the Back To The Future triquel - the first one is original & innovating, the second one just continues the story, doesn't really stand on its own, and is so-so, but the third one takes the cake and blows up in your face. just a thought.

Posted by FrosT on Jun-09-2003 05:05:

quote:
Originally posted by whiskers
once again... why do the machines want zion rebuilt?

why not just kill all people who reject the matrix?

oh wait, i forgot, this is just a movie. sometimes things just can't be explained. but if you can, answer that, please.

Ill start with the second one. The people that reject the matrix die in the process. The brain couldn't handle a perfect world hence "entire crops were lost." Zion is full of actual humans not the people who rejected the program.

For the first one I only have a couple thories everything will have to be cleared up in the final picture.

When I thought about why they want to rebuild it I had to think about why they need to destroy it. (cause and effect) The main reson i can think of is becuase they cant control the "real world" like they can the matrix. There is factors in the real world that can not be calculated without a certain margin of error. They control location but thats about the only thing they can be really sure of, the humans have to be down there. Another reason why they have to destroy it is becuase it is obviously growing to fast, that many people in one place is asking for trouble. Also becuase the matrix is based on real history whats to prevent the war between the humans and machines from starting again. A mass war would result in alot of deaths which would mean less power. Not to mention afew other reasons (neo). Now once they get down there and kill everyone why bother rebuilding it? (incoming half ass theories, no way to be sure without seeing rest) Best thing I can come up with is that they need to somehow flush out the anomally/neo, becuase he is obviously important in the restarting of the system (no way to tell exatly how at this point) As I stated earlyer they also want him in the "real wold" (if anyone actually read my long post) thats why so much control tactics are used (architect, oracle) They seem to need him out of the matrix and the only way to get him out is to use other humans to set him free. This all relys on my theory of him having to die while not connected directly into the matrix through the machines hardware(pod thing) Otherwise why didn't they kill him when they caught him in the office building in the first one? Why did they wait untill he was free before trying to off him? (There is alot of things that you can think of that make it look like they need him located and dead in the "real world" the bug thing?)

Second more simple theory is that they didn't want to change any factors from the first run through that may cause a total system failure and anihilate the power source. If they do it exacltly like they did before they get more efficient at it and have more control/power to ensure that the matrix runs smooth and they never lose power/life.

First one totally rests on neo having to die unpluged from the machines for whatever reason. Second seems more logical but still needs there to be only one matrix. I do believe there is only one matrix (see long ass post) and no matrix inside a matrix (wouldnt seem very efficient to a machine as the fake matrix people wouldnt be producing any power.

Posted by Photo_bot_2k1 on Jun-09-2003 05:11:

quote:
Originally posted by whiskers

i think all 3 matrix movies would be like the Back To The Future triquel - the first one is original & innovating, the second one just continues the story, doesn't really stand on its own, and is so-so, but the third one takes the cake and blows up in your face. just a thought.

its gonna be mor elike the star wars trilogy
the first one is a self contained movie and the
2nd and 3rd are related with the second having the good guys lose and a giant cliffhanger

Posted by whiskers on Jun-09-2003 05:16:

quote:
Originally posted by FrosT
Ill start with the second one. The people that reject the matrix die in the process. The brain couldn't handle a perfect world hence "entire crops were lost." Zion is full of actual humans not the people who rejected the program.

i see, that's what i missed. people who reject the matrix die. that explains everything.

here's another one. neo. is he really the One? is he really special, or is he made special by the fact that he had to choose between the doors (wait, i just realized something... maybe he IS SPECIAL because of the choices he makes, such as saving morpheus in part 1 and picking doors in part 2... thus the whole choice theme)

and, did the previous 5 Ones look like Neo, or were they actually different people? someone mentioned that merovingian is a former One (because of what Percephone said to Neo - "he was once just like you")

Posted by rollypoles on Jun-09-2003 07:13:

first off, i think the matrix isn't being restarted right away...i think it takes them 24 hours. there was a preview for the third at the end of all the credits (which were really long), and i think they said something about 24 hours....or i think it was when neo saved trinity and came out of the matrix that he told morpheus that they had 24 hours.

also, when they talked about how there was only one survivor, who is the guy that got has agent smith in him or whatever, that he was the only one who survived from the three ships that were sent out to do a counter strike. i think he sabotaged the whole mission and the machines let him live. so he'll probably try to kill neo in the last one in the real world....which goes along the lines of what people have said about the machines needing to kill him in the real world and not in the computer world (matrix). but, this is only how i interpreted it after seeing it twice and wondering the same thing (is zion destroyed?).

Posted by whitesmoke on Jun-09-2003 07:42:

quote:
Originally posted by whiskers
and, did the previous 5 Ones look like Neo, or were they actually different people? someone mentioned that merovingian is a former One (because of what Percephone said to Neo - "he was once just like you")

i thought the screens in the architects were the neos from before during the same conversation. that is why you saw him have the same reactions that he wanted to have at this point. then again, the architect could have changed the look of them. who knows....i dont.

Posted by [mart] on Jun-09-2003 12:44:

quote:
Originally posted by whitesmoke
i thought the screens in the architects were the neos from before during the same conversation. that is why you saw him have the same reactions that he wanted to have at this point. then again, the architect could have changed the look of them. who knows....i dont.

This isn't strictly related, but cast your minds back to The Matrix and the interrogation scene - that's the bit where the agents bug Neo. That scene begins with an array of screens similar, if not identical, to those in the Architect's room at the end of Reloaded. Cool eh? Well no, but have any of the more vigilant of you spotted other things like this?

Posted by LordTranceaLaut on Jun-09-2003 14:21:

i think it wud help u guys a lot if u read this ling ass post i made under the other mmatrix thread...

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