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Ok so what said proof demonstrates that Israeli society propogates racist mentalities such that they are taught to look at arabs as sub-humans? So far the only racist comments I see are yours in depicting Israeli society as a whole as an institutionalized racist state

The state of Israel exists as a homeland for the Jews. Therefore any Jew from anywhere in the world can hop on a plane and get off at Ben Gurion and the customs guy will say "welcome home". Contrast that to an palestinian arab whose family were kicked out in 1948, he could give them the title deeds to his families land but he has no right of return. He has a legal right to land but it is denied him for only one reason HIS RACE. And if that isnt racism well then the word has no meaning whatsoever.

But it goes beyond that, arabs are discriminated against in all processes of government. They truly are second class citizens. And Israel declares its better than its neighbours, that it sickening.

A country where a best selling book the infamous Joan Peters work gets away with trying to deny completely the arabs prior claim to the land is a country that is profoundly racist. If a person published a book in Australia saying there were no aborigines before white settlement they would get torn to pieces. Its like some guy publishing a book denying the Holocaust isnt a racist. Its absurd.

Just read the Israeli internet sites. Its not a secret. Lots of them want to finally ethnically clease all of the arabs.

You could do a key word search on any of these people who have a detailed knowledge of Israeli society to get a clear picture of what an ugly society Israel truly is. Uri Avnery, Ilan Pappe, Norman Finklestein, Robert Fisk, John Pilger.

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Rupert, wouldn't you agree with me that racism is also well-rooted within the Palestine society and a large part of the Arab and Islam world?

I wouldnt confine it to the Palestinians, religious prejudice runs very deep in Muslim culture. There are no saints in the Middle East.

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Wow ... somebody who actually wants MORE violence in the region.

There is going to be more violence in the Middle East irrespective of anything that I say or do. Its too late for there to be any genuine peace even if the parties wanted to achieve it. I dont know how it will play out but I can guarantee the region will be violent for many, many years to come.

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Originally posted by rupert The state of Israel exists as a homeland for the Jews. Therefore any Jew from anywhere in the world can hop on a plane and get off at Ben Gurion and the customs guy will say "welcome home". Contrast that to an palestinian arab whose family were kicked out in 1948, he could give them the title deeds to his families land but he has no right of return. He has a legal right to land but it is denied him for only one reason HIS RACE. And if that isnt racism well then the word has no meaning whatsoever.

The Arab families weren't kicked out in 1948. Many of them left at the beck and call of the Arab nations who told them to clear the path of the invading armies. Yes there were massacres carried out against civilians which encouraged some to flee (by BOTH sides mind you) but it wasn't government policy to expel Arabs. Look at Israel's declaration of independance signed in 1948. IT says, "WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions."

Funny that they would encourage people to stay in the country if they wanted them kicked out. Furthermore, if you look at UN Resolution 194, which was accepted by the Israelis, stated in point 11 that "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property" This resolution was unanimously rejected by the Arabs who kept vying for armed warfare to displace ALL of Israel. So at this point what do you do? Leave whole towns empty until the Arab armies finally succeed in destroying Israel or wait until the refugees finally get sick of empty promises by their host countries and return home 30 years later?

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But it goes beyond that, arabs are discriminated against in all processes of government. They truly are second class citizens. And Israel declares its better than its neighbours, that it sickening.

A large portion of Israelis ARE arabs. From 1948-1956 450,000 Jews arrived in Israel from Asia and Africa compared with 360,000 from Europe and the US. That's 130,000 Jews from Iraq, 45,000 Jews from Yemen, 35000 from libya, etc. Until about 1985 the majority of Israel's population were indigenous to the region/continent. It must be pretty difficult discriminating against the majority ...

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A country where a best selling book the infamous Joan Peters work gets away with trying to deny completely the arabs prior claim to the land is a country that is profoundly racist. If a person published a book in Australia saying there were no aborigines before white settlement they would get torn to pieces. Its like some guy publishing a book denying the Holocaust isnt a racist. Its absurd.

So what people read determines their moral stance? Look people, the Palestinians are racist:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...9%2Fnmein19.xml

Look people, Nazism is on the rise again, the Germans are racist:

http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/updates/i99020.html

What people read means nothing. I myself would like to read Mein Kampf one day just because I'm curious. If somebody wrote a book saying we should reinstate slavery in the US I would be semi-curious to read it simply to see how that nut justifies his arguments. Extremism engenders curiosity, so I wouldn't be surprised if something outlandish becomes a bestseller.

Are there elements of racism in Israeli society? Yes probably. Are there elements of racism in Arab society? Yes probably. Is Israeli society racist? No. Is Arab society racist? No. You are being extremist and one-sided in your proclomations of Israel being a racist society yet neglecting to mention anything about Arab society.

Nice post Occrider...

I think you may need to repeat what you said... some of our TA 'buddies' probably forgot to put on their thinking caps!

RUPERT: I beg to differ on the point of "There are no saints in the Middle East." DO NOT GENERALIZE. Religiously speaking, there have been 3 saints from Lebanon. Politically speaking, look at a person like Rabin (former PM of Israel). If it hadn't been for some psycho ultra-radical Israeli, there might have been peace now. Rupert, take a minute to step back and reflect on your ignorance of the situation.

Mike: Har. I am amused by your last comment. But baby, don't hate the playa, hate the game (altho i couldn't quite tell you what the game is).....

quote:

Originally posted by DrummeRaver86 Mike: Har. I am amused by your last comment. But baby, don't hate the playa, hate the game (altho i couldn't quite tell you what the game is).....

All would be well if this was all just a sick game.... unfortunately for everyone affected by this conflict, it�s not just a game.

I do not hate on anyone besides the person who claims to have all the answers yet back nothing up. And those of you who back shit up with poor and pathetic sites whose' primary goal is to spread propaganda, incitement, and fanatical fallacies; you sit in a faster sinking boat than the character I first mentioned above.

quote:

Originally posted by melech_mike All would be well if this was all just a sick game.... unfortunately for everyone affected by this conflict, it�s not just a game. I do not hate on anyone besides the person who claims to have all the answers yet back nothing up. And those of you who back shit up with poor and pathetic sites whose' primary goal is to spread propaganda, incitement, and fanatical fallacies; you sit in a faster sinking boat than the character I first mentioned above.

I agree with you on the part before "the character...."
Mike, calm down, I was just playing with you. I know that you're an inteliigent and insightful guy...calm down....

Well said, Occrider ... Guess we both worship the same article

On that note, Rupert, I beg you to read this, it is well worth the long while!

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...ghlight=Article

quote:

The Arab families weren't kicked out in 1948. Many of them left at the beck and call of the Arab nations who told them to clear the path of the invading armies. Yes there were massacres carried out against civilians which encouraged some to flee (by BOTH sides mind you) but it wasn't government policy to expel Arabs.

They were. They were ethnically cleasnsed and there villages were burnt to the ground, the Israelis said that the arabs could come back but they did not mean it and made sure they didnt come back.

As I have always said, as far as I am aware the best Israeli account of the entire conflict is Benny Morris's Righteous Victims. It gives quote after quote after quote from Israelis at the time admitting there goal was to ethnically cleanse the arabs. Read it.

If not that book then the opening chapters of Robert Fisks Pity the Nation. It has numerous interviews with Jews and Arabs who actually lived in 1948 and recount what actually happened.

The best that can be said about the Israelis in 1948 was that they were divided into two factions the Ben-Gurion faction that wanted to reach an accomodation with the arabs and the Stern Gang faction who did not want to make any accommodation with the arabs.

quote:

Politically speaking, look at a person like Rabin (former PM of Israel). If it hadn't been for some psycho ultra-radical Israeli, there might have been peace now. Rupert, take a minute to step back and reflect on your ignorance of the situation.

Fine, just bring it. Now Rabin theres an interesting choice for a saint. In his own memoirs Rabin admits that he was an army officer involved in the ethnic cleansing of arabs from the towns of Lydda and Ramle. After WW2 Germans who were guilty of ethnic cleansing got the rope.

And Im the one thats ignorant. There are no saints in the Middle East. The arabs are almost as bad as the jews. The arabs governments systematic betrayal of the palestinian people's cause for the sake of political expediency is almost as bad as the Israelis systematic persecution of the palestinians.

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On that note, Rupert, I beg you to read this, it is well worth the long while!

I have read it a long time ago, a classic case of a text which does not say anything false (as far as I am aware) but nevertheless leaves a false impression. Put a lot of the facts in their proper context and you get quite a different opinion. Again you want all the facts in their historical context read Benny Morris Righteous Victims.

quote:

Are there elements of racism in Israeli society? Yes probably. Are there elements of racism in Arab society? Yes probably. Is Israeli society racist? No. Is Arab society racist? No. You are being extremist and one-sided in your proclomations of Israel being a racist society yet neglecting to mention anything about Arab society.

Am I. Am I. You want proof of Israeli racism. These are articles from a Jewish author who writes in Ha'aretz

http://www.zmag.org/content/showart...=22&ItemID=3674

http://zmag.org/content/showarticle...=22&ItemID=3571

http://zmag.org/content/showarticle...=22&ItemID=3529

http://zmag.org/content/showarticle...=22&ItemID=3120

Or if Eugene Levy isnt enough

http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

As to the Joan Peters book

http://store.yahoo.com/netanyahu/fintrutinmid.html

This book has been proved to be a fraud, and it finds support from, oh look guess who Binyamin Netanyahu. People have posted that book on this site as proof of the Jews superior claim to the land. The intent of that book is to try and say that Palestine was just an empty desert when the Jews arived. Its a lie. A fabrication just like the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" A lie with a nasty racist agenda. It makes the arabs un-people. People without rights, nothing more than "cockroaches" as General Eitan called them.

Remember the Israeli tourism minister who the arabs managed to kill about two years ago. The arabs chose him for a reason. He was on record as calling the arabs "vermin" When top officials get away with saying stuff like that you know that the society where racism is acceptable. No leading politican in the west could ever get away with what they say in Israel.

The truth is the arabs were the majority population of the land that is Israel right up until 1948 and had continually inhabited that land since the Caliph in the 7th century. Any other statement is a lie.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert The best that can be said about the Israelis in 1948 was that they were divided into two factions the Ben-Gurion faction that wanted to reach an accomodation with the arabs and the Stern Gang faction who did not want to make any accommodation with the arabs.

Up until the mid-seventies, the "Ben Gurion" faciton (Labor camp) was extremely dominant in Israel!
These 2 factions have developed into today's Left Wing (Labour camp) and Right Wing (Citizen camp), and unfortunately the Right Wing is quite the dominant over here.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert Fine, just bring it. Now Rabin theres an interesting choice for a saint. In his own memoirs Rabin admits that he was an army officer involved in the ethnic cleansing of arabs from the towns of Lydda and Ramle. After WW2 Germans who were guilty of ethnic cleansing got the rope.

Rabin never denied that he used to be a man of war, before turning into a soldier of peace. ASSUMING he meant that he was part of an ethnical cleansing, this pretty much shows that you don't have to be a saint to be able to make peace.

quote:

Originally posted by rupert The arabs are almost as bad as the jews.

Please refrain from comparing an ethnical group to a religous one... You must mean to either say "The Muslims are almost as bad as the Jews" or "The Arabs are almost as bad as the Israelis".

quote:

Originally posted by rupert Remember the Israeli tourism minister who the arabs managed to kill about two years ago. The arabs chose him for a reason. He was on record as calling the arabs "vermin" When top officials get away with saying stuff like that you know that the society where racism is acceptable. No leading politican in the west could ever get away with what they say in Israel.

With no means of disrespecting that man, Rehav'am Zeevi, barely anyone took him seriously over here. Do you insist that his being able to use freedom of speech indicates that Israel is a racist state, take a look at Sweden.. They have a formal Nazi party there, but I don't think they're a racist state, do you?

quote:

Originally posted by rupert The truth is the arabs were the majority population of the land that is Israel right up until 1948 and had continually inhabited that land since the Caliph in the 7th century. Any other statement is a lie.

Why stop at the 7th century? why are you so afraid to venture deeper into the past to 0 or 500 B.C. ? This is not a lie : The Hebrews were driven out of the land of Israel, THEN the friendly Residens of the Babylonian empire and later on other friendly residents of the Roman empire and even later on other friendly residents of the lands whitin Islaic conquer were thrown into that hell-hole.

Re: Peace

quote:

Originally posted by torontotrance seems to me in this forum we have the pro isreali - anti palestinian ppl and we have the anti isreali - pro palestinian view why take sides? violence is pathetic and it takes two sides to create conflict and it continues and continues. Label whoever you wish a terrorist but people need to sit down and solve this issue because how many more innocent lives will be lost?

Amen to that brother!

You talk much about the 'systematic ethnic cleansing' that exists within Israel towards the Arabs.

Lets look at what happened to the Jew's that lived lavishly and prosperously in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Morocco, Spain, Yemen, and many other predominantly Muslim countries. From hundreds of thousands -- to none!
But of course in your brilliant mind it's okay and justified; it is after all against the villainous "occupying Jews".

First of all let me tell you you're whacked!
You need to stop reading such non-sense for your mind; it's already quite evident your brain is a ball of shit! Excuse my language...

Instead of being objective, you go and read pure leftist editorials, pure pro-Arab, anti-Israel columns and "special" reports, and that�s what makes you look so stupid. You say your being objective and looking at all the factors that make this conflict whole... my ass!

You just keep on reading that zmag bullshit of yours... their definitely impartial on the situation.

Open your eyes kid... I'm a usually optimistic character... I see the potential your brain has to offer you. Stop filling it with SHIT!
I'm not saying go read pure pro-Israel shit; I�m just saying get Arafat's dick out of your ass!!!

*extremely aggravated*
There was a lot more written originally in this post.... I re-read it a few times to clear it of excessive anger poised towards you specifically. I know I can't be mad at you, your just weak minded and therefore are easily manipulated by the ever pervasive pro-'Palestinian' camp that spread nothing but hate-filled propaganda to the ignorant masses.

Rupert, the shit you say is comparable to what I or the other guy, Shlomo used to say and post.... I don�t see any MOD's all up your ass -- Shit, that�s because Arafat�s holding up the line....

quote:

Originally posted by rupert They were. They were ethnically cleasnsed and there villages were burnt to the ground, the Israelis said that the arabs could come back but they did not mean it and made sure they didnt come back. As I have always said, as far as I am aware the best Israeli account of the entire conflict is Benny Morris's Righteous Victims. It gives quote after quote after quote from Israelis at the time admitting there goal was to ethnically cleanse the arabs. Read it. If not that book then the opening chapters of Robert Fisks Pity the Nation. It has numerous interviews with Jews and Arabs who actually lived in 1948 and recount what actually happened. The best that can be said about the Israelis in 1948 was that they were divided into two factions the Ben-Gurion faction that wanted to reach an accomodation with the arabs and the Stern Gang faction who did not want to make any accommodation with the arabs.

Of course you can find quote after quote of Israelis calling for the extinction of Arabs just as you can go to Palestine and find quote after quote of Palestinians calling for the extinction of Israel. Does that extrapolate towards the entire society or population though??? I�m well aware of the Stern Gang and LEHI�s efforts to create a Jewish state and rid the region of Arabs. However, the Stern Gang was an ultra-right terrorist organization that conducted terrorist bombings against the British and even other Jews. They even went so far as to collaborate with the Nazis in order to achieve their objectives! However, the LEHI and the similar group Irgun were actively dismantled by Ben-Gurion himself in 1948. Ben-Gurion even went so far as to blow up arms shipments that these groups were getting to conduct operations. Read about the sinking of the Altalena. So yes you can find examples of Israeli extremism, but what you are saying is tantamount to me saying something like � look at Hamas, that�s an example of all Palestinians being terrorists. I�m most certain I would be hearing from everybody calling me a racist and calling for me being banned

Instead of reading all these heavily opinionated pieces, try something a little more abstract and unbiased, like a historical textbook. I�ve found from time to time again that these �sensational� accounts from radical, �cutting edge� authors are trying to do only one thing � sell their book. As such, they fail to give you the big picture so to speak. Try reading R. R. Palmer�s A History of the Modern World. It should give a good account of everything going on in the region and present it in a fair, unbiased manner.

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Am I. Am I. You want proof of Israeli racism. These are articles from a Jewish author who writes in Ha'aretz http://www.zmag.org/content/showart...=22&ItemID=3674 http://zmag.org/content/showarticle...=22&ItemID=3571 http://zmag.org/content/showarticle...=22&ItemID=3529 http://zmag.org/content/showarticle...=22&ItemID=3120 Or if Eugene Levy isnt enough http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html As to the Joan Peters book http://store.yahoo.com/netanyahu/fintrutinmid.html This book has been proved to be a fraud, and it finds support from, oh look guess who Binyamin Netanyahu. People have posted that book on this site as proof of the Jews superior claim to the land. The intent of that book is to try and say that Palestine was just an empty desert when the Jews arived. Its a lie. A fabrication just like the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" A lie with a nasty racist agenda. It makes the arabs un-people. People without rights, nothing more than "cockroaches" as General Eitan called them. Remember the Israeli tourism minister who the arabs managed to kill about two years ago. The arabs chose him for a reason. He was on record as calling the arabs "vermin" When top officials get away with saying stuff like that you know that the society where racism is acceptable. No leading politican in the west could ever get away with what they say in Israel.

Sigh � what did I say? I said you were being extremist and ONE-SIDED in your proclamation of Israel being racist. Did I not say that there were elements within Israeli society that were racist??? Well you just proved what I had already admitted to. However, once again that doesn�t implicate Israeli society as being racist. There are going to be those who are racist in positions of power EVERYWHERE. Just look at Strom Thurmond who campaigned to be President under a platform of segregation. Do you even want me to dredge up quotes of Palestinian officials and reports of their direct affiliation to terrorist groups? If you�re going to use the erection of a wall as an example of Israeli society being racist then why didn�t the Israelis do this 40 years ago after they had established their state? Why do they even let Palestinian workers cross into Israeli proper to work? The Israeli wall was erected in response to increased terrorism from the Palestinians not increased racism on the part of the Israelis. Your argument that Israeli society is racist is going to win just as much credibility as the argument that Palestinian/Arab society is racist. Both societies are twisted by hatred over the years of conflict, however they are not racist.

quote:

The truth is the arabs were the majority population of the land that is Israel right up until 1948 and had continually inhabited that land since the Caliph in the 7th century. Any other statement is a lie.

There was no Arab state in Israel at the time of its establishment. And if you look at the initial partition lines drawn up by the UN it was based on population density between Jews and Arabs.



If you read about the history of Palestine in the 19th and early 20th century, much of the Jewish holdings in Israel pre-1948 were acquired through legal land purchases from Arab land owners. This partition based on who actually owns what was summarily rejected by OUTSIDE neighboring Arab countries who were intent on exterminating jews. And that lead to the situation of Israel looking like it does today.

Yes Rupert, you are ignorant. Obviously, you have no clue of what you think are the dynamics of the Middle East. The reason that other Arab governments have "betrayed" the Palestinians is becuase they want nothing to do with them! There are over 350,000 Palestinians in Lebanon, and half a million or so still residing in Jordan. Do you know what they bring to the country? Nothing. Do you know what they take from the country? Everything they can.
Why are you such an ardent defender of the Palestinians? What do you really know about them?
Rupert, I believe you are ignorant. Ignorance, fortunately, is something that can be cleared up....I hope.

Rupert, you have yourself claimed that it is impossible that anyone denying the Hallocaust (SP?) will not be a racist.

Mr. Abu-Mazen, the new head of the Palestine government, has earned his doctorate at a Russian university. His subject: Hallocaust Denial.

Hence the new Palestine government is racist, isn't it?

About the Palastinian refugees, they are indeed quite a load of trouble: Jordan, the only country that has actually lent them a hand and given them a chance to live properly where they are, is currently suffering from a social absurd: The majority there is of those refugees, they are probably going to take over the Jordanians, the people who has lived there from.. Well, who knows, it could be 1917 and it could be 1000 AC.

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