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-- Israel and the Arab world
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Originally posted by occrider Besides, if we start sending christians from here to live there we'll have less tv-evangelist christians in the country to worry about.

That's too funny!

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Originally posted by occrider It was more or less a joke . I hate bible thumpers as much as the next man. I'm just saying that the Jews and the Muslims can't seem to agree as to who should have it, so I think that neither should have it.

I'll work with your line of reasoning for a minute.
If the Israeli's were to go to Mecca today and state a claim to it what would you think? Say the Israeli's really did go to Saudi Arabia and claimed Mecca to be theirs some ridiculous way or another. Say fighting continued for years on end and nothing looked promising in current talks on the issue between diplomats. Would you now say, "no one should get it because they can't agree to anything"? Hell no, you would say, who the fuck are these Israeli's trying to fool... get the fuck out and shut the fuck up! And this is exactly what I say when Arafat claims Jerusalem to be his "holy spot"! He only wants it because it belongs to the Jew's... anything the Jew's have he wants... the destruction of Israel is not a fallacy... its reality for these evil fucks! When will everyone wake up and realize what�s really happening here? When will people realize how ridiculous it is for them to have a claim to Jerusalem... just as ridiculous as Israel having a claim to Mecca! Snap the fuck out of it already!

The importance of Jerusalem to Muslims isn't - perhaps - as significant as its importance to Christians or Jews, but it's still wrong to say that the significance of Jerusalem to Muslims is the same as the significance of Mecca to Jews. Jerusalem is the first "Qibla" for praying Muslims - meaning, the first direction they pray towards in their "salah" (the ritual series of prayers they perform several times daily). Also, the third most important mosque in Islam is situated there:

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Prophet Muhammad was the first Muslim who entered Jerusalem and prayed at Al-Aqsa Mosque, as Imam with the prophets during the Nocturnal Journey and Ascension. Also the prayer ordinance became a Muslim obligation from over Jerusalem during Ascension. Hence Al-Aqsa Mosque became the first Qiblah and the third Mosque in Islam. On the other hand, there are several sayings in which prophet Muhammad confirms the importance and holiness of Al-Aqsa Mosque, and urges all Muslims to visit Jerusalem continuously and to defend it.

http://131.103.199.78/jerusalem/feedback.htm

Having said that, it's not as though I side with the Palestinians ahead of the Isrealis (or, at least, the Jewish Isrealis) because, the way I see it, both sides are - fundamentally - wrong. Palestinians need to recognise Isreal's legitimacy as an independant state and do everything under their power to curtail Palestinian terrorism, whereas the Isreali's need to recognise the legitimacy of the Palestinian people (and other Arabic cultures) and abandon, for instance, the contruction of further settlements in the West-Bank and the Gaza Strip. Until such a compromise is reached - and both sides can acknowledge the legitmacy of the other - I don't see much hope for peace there.

Returning to the issue of Jerusalem, though, perhaps it would make more sense to make it an independent state like the Vatican City? The UN could have ultimate authority over the area, but designate power to subordinate authorities comprising both local Jews and local Muslims (and perhaps Christians if we want to go down that path?) meaning that, for an individual to get into power in the government of Jerusalem, he would have to recognise both the legitimacy of the local Palestinian and Isreali population? So, if they want a say in how Jerusalem is run, they need to be able to get along with people of opposing points of view?

Just an idea. I doubt the Isreali people would be willing to surrender control of their capital (understandably) but still - at least the suggestion's been put forward.

Ah, here we go:

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The United Nations General Assembly decided in 1947 on the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem to be an international city. The plan, which was rejected by the Palestinians, was never implemented.

This is what I'm talking about. It's also what Occrider was talking about before I presume.

Would you reject this solution, just out of interest melech_mike? Or, if you're representing the other view, Cyrus King, would you reject it?

Seems reasonable enough to me (being the huge authority on the issue that I am).

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Originally posted by melech_mike You are a prime example of what the dictionary deems an intellectual!

Take it easy Mike, it was a joke...altho I can;t say the same for my friend Galapidate....
Anyway, wouldn't be funny if some souhtern tv-evangelist tired to do an exorcism on some home appliance in Jerusalem and then throw bibles at people telling them that slavation lies within? I wouldn't be able to stop laughing!

it sounds to me like some of you are assuming that Palestinian=Muslim. not true, if you arent Jewish in the Middle East, youre Palestinian, generally.

and some would argue that Bible beating Southern USers arent even true Christians...

as for mikes comparison with Mecca? wtf...that didnt make any sense. Israeli or Palestinian interests with respect to Jerusalem are concrete. that doesnt have anything to do with Jews going to Mecca to control it- theres no reason they would|

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Originally posted by biznology it sounds to me like some of you are assuming that Palestinian=Muslim. not true, if you arent Jewish in the Middle East, youre Palestinian, generally.

Actually, of Israel's 6 million population about 1 million are non-Jews. Of the non-Jews 75% are muslim, 16% christian, and 9% druze. Plus the minority of non-Jews are groing at a faster rate than Jews. So I think that in a few years the claim that if you aren't Jewish you are Palestinain will not hold true in the near future.

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Originally posted by DrummeRaver86 Take it easy Mike, it was a joke...altho I can;t say the same for my friend Galapidate.... Anyway, wouldn't be funny if some souhtern tv-evangelist tried to do an exorcism on some home appliance in Jerusalem and then throw bibles at people telling them that slavation lies within? I wouldn't be able to stop laughing!

You know, I shouldn't be laughing, but I am.
Okay, this is serious now, no more funny stuff!

Okay, seriously though, Hamas has just been reported as saying they will not concede to a truce. They feel that there were not enough concessions given to them. So does anyone know what other concessions this extremist group wants? And Mike, don't yell out, "take over Israel" just yet, I seriously am wondering if they want any real truce at all. But if they don't, again I ask the question I asked in another thread - wouldn't the Palestenian PM consider them a threat to the peace process, and therefore bomb the crap out of their headquarters? Or at least arrest them, because they are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem. And if they truly want no truce at all, they need to be eliminated, period.

What's druze?

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 You know, I shouldn't be laughing, but I am. Okay, this is serious now, no more funny stuff! Okay, seriously though, Hamas has just been reported as saying they will not concede to a truce. They feel that there were not enough concessions given to them. So does anyone know what other concessions this extremist group wants? And Mike, don't yell out, "take over Israel" just yet, I seriously am wondering if they want any real truce at all. But if they don't, again I ask the question I asked in another thread - wouldn't the Palestenian PM consider them a threat to the peace process, and therefore bomb the crap out of their headquarters? Or at least arrest them, because they are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem. And if they truly want no truce at all, they need to be eliminated, period.

Hammas is essentially the Palestinian hardline counterpart to the Likkud almost. They want all of Jerusalem which will never happen I'm afraid, and they want the issue of the right of return resolved which I'm afraid also will not happen. Israel may concede towards the creation of a Palestine state, they may concede towards removing illegal settlements, and (fingers crossed) they may even concede towards removing permenant settlements over time. However I don't believe they'll transplant whole segments of the Israeli population in Israel proper to accomodate refugees that left the area over 50 years ago. There are indeed truly part of the problem since their hardline stance and opposition of the peace process probably does not represent the majority of the Palestinian population.

Anyway, the Druze are a multi-national religous group who are similar to the Arabs of the region, but consider themselves neither Arabs nor Muslims, and do not intermarry with Muslims or Jews. There are about 300,000 of them in the Middle East. I think they're more or less looked down upon by everybody else. Hmmm the closest thing I can think of that would be analogous to that group would be something like the amish or the quakers in the US.

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Originally posted by occrider Hammas is essentially the Palestinian hardline counterpart to the Likkud almost. They want all of Jerusalem which will never happen I'm afraid, and they want the issue of the right of return resolved which I'm afraid also will not happen. Israel may concede towards the creation of a Palestine state, they may concede towards removing illegal settlements, and (fingers crossed) they may even concede towards removing permenant settlements over time. However I don't believe they'll transplant whole segments of the Israeli population in Israel proper to accomodate refugees that left the area over 50 years ago. There are indeed truly part of the problem since their hardline stance and opposition of the peace process probably does not represent the majority of the Palestinian population.

Well this brings me back to my question then - why would Abbas not consider Hammas a threat to the peace process, and eliminate them altogether? Because to me, if they do not take measures to eliminate this group, they are in essence aiding and abetting them. There cannot be anything gained by this suicidal terrorist group, is there? It just seems like common sense to me.

I read that Hamas will not agree with anything until every "centimeter" of land that belongs to Palestine is given back.
Im afraid that this problem will never end.

In any event, does anyone have a link as to what the detailed wants of Sharon, Hamas, and Mazen are? By analyzing these three positions i think one would get a clearer picture of the problem.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King I read that Hamas will not agree with anything until every "centimeter" of land that belongs to Palestine is given back. Im afraid that this problem will never end. In any event, does anyone have a link as to what the detailed wants of Sharon, Hamas, and Mazen are? By analyzing these three positions i think one would get a clearer picture of the problem.

Here's a good summary of Hamas and their short term goals and long term goals:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/978626.stm

As you can see, even Arafat wanted to reign Hamas in so you can probably guess at how frustrated Abbas is.

Here's an article detailing what Abbas wants from Hamas.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=2889821

Essentially he wants a truce so that diplomacy has a chance to resolve the situation. Sharon wants the Palestinians to crack down on militant groups in exchange for concessions on Israel's part. The road map calls for:

The peace plan, which the Palestinians accepted and Israel endorsed with reservations, calls on the Palestinian Authority to mount "effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror."

Such action, the road map says, includes the "dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure" and "confiscation of illegal weapons."

I could understand Hamas's objectives, however I can't understand their reasoning. All they must give up is time (which costs nothing) to give diplomacy a chance where REAL concessions are being granted instead of carrying out meaningless suicide attacks (which will ultimately result in nothing).

I can sympathise with the Palestinians, however Hamas and these other groups I could piss on. They're as bad as any other form of religious extremism in the world.

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Originally posted by occrider Anyway, the Druze are a multi-national religous group who are similar to the Arabs of the region, but consider themselves neither Arabs nor Muslims, and do not intermarry with Muslims or Jews. There are about 300,000 of them in the Middle East. I think they're more or less looked down upon by everybody else. Hmmm the closest thing I can think of that would be analogous to that group would be something like the amish or the quakers in the US.

Yeah....the druze.....a MUCH loved sect of islam in the Mid-East. There are a lot of them residing the Jbiel (Mountainous part of Lebanon) area. They are rarely seen in Beirut or anywhere else in the central and souhtern area of the country.
In the 1800's, there was a Maronite massacre at the hands of the Druze in the mountains of Lebanon. Being half Maronite, I don't particularly like them, but they're not the most horrible people on earth, so it evens out.
Interesting, tho, to find out that some Israelis are druze.

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Originally posted by DrummeRaver86 Yeah....the druze.....a MUCH loved sect of islam in the Mid-East. There are a lot of them residing the Jbiel (Mountainous part of Lebanon) area. They are rarely seen in Beirut or anywhere else in the central and souhtern area of the country. In the 1800's, there was a Maronite massacre at the hands of the Druze in the mountains of Lebanon. Being half Maronite, I don't particularly like them, but they're not the most horrible people on earth, so it evens out. Interesting, tho, to find out that some Israelis are druze.

What I admire about the Druze is their ability to completely seperate religion from nationalism - The Israeli Druze see themselves as fully-fledged Israelis, serve the army and pay their taxes etc.

Those of of us with common sense also see them as fully fledged Israelis.

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Originally posted by oDrori What I admire about the Druze is their ability to completely seperate religion from nationalism - The Israeli Druze see themselves as fully-fledged Israelis, serve the army and pay their taxes etc. Those of of us with common sense also see them as fully fledged Israelis.

you're right, they do seperate nationalism from religion. In lebanon, it takes someone a while to remember that the druze are lebanese too!

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Originally posted by oDrori What I admire about the Druze is their ability to completely seperate religion from nationalism - The Israeli Druze see themselves as fully-fledged Israelis, serve the army and pay their taxes etc. Those of of us with common sense also see them as fully fledged Israelis.

but then again, the druze have been known in the ages to be submissive under the "current" occupier... be it, arabs, jews, etc etc...

i have no respect for this kind of mentality.

and for melech_mike

if you try to compare arab lands to jewish lands, put this in your little head. there's 250 million arabs, in 15-20 years about 450 million. Now how many jews is there? how about comparing land size/population ratio...

also for your info, an "arab" from morocco is so different from an "arab" from Kuwait that they can barely understand each other if they spoke together... each arabic country is so different from the next one that its hard to say it forms a homogeneous group. If it wasn't the case, you would've seen a united states of arabia or whtaver the name formed a long time ago...

bah its a waste of time posting in your threads...

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Originally posted by ahlamalek but then again, the druze have been known in the ages to be submissive under the "current" occupier... be it, arabs, jews, etc etc... i have no respect for this kind of mentality.

Or perhaps they care not for how they are governed so long as they are free to practice their beliefs and live their lives as they so choose. It seems to me that a lot of strife would be avoided if people adopted this mentality.

oh yeah? we would still have some guy named Adolf Hitler ruling in europe or maybe even slavery in the US don't say things without thinking.

This is one of the worst threds ive ever seen.

Why not talk about
Israels large nuke program
Israels spy networks in the US
Israels many loans from the US which havent been payed off.
Israels place in the western media and is portrayal of jews and arabs.
Israels blackmail of officals world wide.
Israels CONTROL OVER SOME LARGE U.S. TELECOMUNICATIONS NETWORKS

When u dive into daily issues like these you cant say even for a minute that Israel is anymore or less innocent than any or all Arab countries. OR that Israel deserves any more land, money or respect than anyone else.

-----=( ALWAYS REMEMBER )=-------
If u look at history u see countless examples of a powergrab disguised in hatred and misinfortation between groups of people.
melech mike's endless rant about his people is no diferent.

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Originally posted by Mental Exodus This is one of the worst threds ive ever seen. Why not talk about Israels large nuke program Israels spy networks in the US Israels many loans from the US which havent been payed off. Israels place in the western media and is portrayal of jews and arabs. Israels blackmail of officals world wide. Israels CONTROL OVER SOME LARGE U.S. TELECOMUNICATIONS NETWORKS

you're so pathetic

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Originally posted by TranceGiant you're so pathetic

care to explain ?

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Originally posted by Mental Exodus care to explain ?

Hm...not sure if it'd make sense to argue with someone who drops lots of anti-israeli /anti-semitic cliches. I got no power to carefully explain why Jews do NOT secretly run the world. I thought such conspiracy theories were outdated

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Originally posted by TranceGiant Hm...not sure if it'd make sense to argue with someone who drops lots of anti-Israeli /anti-Semitic clich�s. I got no power to carefully explain why Jews do NOT secretly run the world. I thought such conspiracy theories were outdated

hmmmm... i think my message was mistaken.
I am not anti-emetic in any way what i was trying to say was simply that Israel isn�t innocent by far and shouldn�t be portrayed as such. As for Jews/Israel running the world i didn�t say that they did. They of course do not. However they do hold power and my examination of that power and its implementation in the world deserves a good look like any other gov. That isn�t anti Jewish in any way. ITS DEMOCRATIC. And by the way the activities I speak of are real and can be quoted in many papers and other media sources. They are not conspiracies in any way.
www.whatreallyhappend.com < is clearly a conspiracy. My post looking at the current actions of the Israel gov is not.
I still find it funny that anyone who questions anything is anti jewsish/american/human ect. lol

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