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-- Yet another bus blast in Jerusalem
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Hehe.

I deleted my address...

Yes I'm too trusting I guess...

If anyone didn't pick up on the fact it was a joke, then they are a sad individual.

And so fucking what if everyone knows my name??? Jesus Mary and Holy St. Joseph....

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Originally posted by DaveSaenz And so fucking what if everyone knows my name???

Voodoo I'm making my David Saenz doll right now as we speak.

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Originally posted by Yoepus What anti-hamas palaestinian organization?? There is none! You guys are deluding yourself believing their is actually a meaningful anti-terror loving Palestinian population with a voice. Currently Hamas is more popular then their Prime Minister Abbas! You can't act against an organization your people love. Thats the problem, you need to make the people understand terror is not acceptable, Hamas is not acceptable. The Palestinians will not act against themselves because they do not want to upset the LARGE majority by going after Hamas. So ya your dreaming...

I wouldn't ever condone the intentional killing of civilians, but I think people would need to step back and take a look at the situation. Do you really think the suicide bombers have such little regard for their own lives that they carry out their duties without some serious soul searching first. I think they do it because they feel that every other avenue against such a strong force militarily has been exhuasted. They obviously can't tackle Israel in open field battle, guerrilla warfare is the only option. It's not conventional warfare admittedly, but how can you consider a Palestinian attack on Israeli military as a terrorist attack, and an Israeli attack on Palestinians as a legitmate military attack? Obviously the people with the money to maintain an army (like US, Britain, Israel, etc.) are also the people who have the financial power to control the media, hence they'll paint their enemies as terrorists. Just because Israel has the money and the power it doesn't mean they are right and that all Arabs are wrong.
I know that a lot of you who post here are of Israeli background or actually live there, but as an outsider, neither Israeli or Palestinian, looking in this is what I see. I think I can connect with the pain and plight of the Palestinian people because of where I'm from myself. People who fight for a cause to end the foreign occupation of my land are painted as terrorists by a rich and powerful enemy.
As for killing Hamas members, it would be, and is, pointless really. There's a phrase here in Ireland, I don't know if it's used anywhere else "you can kill the revolutionary, but never the revolution".

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Originally posted by donegalredneck I wouldn't ever condone the intentional killing of civilians, but I think people would need to step back and take a look at the situation. Do you really think the suicide bombers have such little regard for their own lives that they carry out their duties without some serious soul searching first. I think they do it because they feel that every other avenue against such a strong force militarily has been exhuasted. They obviously can't tackle Israel in open field battle, guerrilla warfare is the only option. It's not conventional warfare admittedly, but how can you consider a Palestinian attack on Israeli military as a terrorist attack, and an Israeli attack on Palestinians as a legitmate military attack? Obviously the people with the money to maintain an army (like US, Britain, Israel, etc.) are also the people who have the financial power to control the media, hence they'll paint their enemies as terrorists. Just because Israel has the money and the power it doesn't mean they are right and that all Arabs are wrong. I know that a lot of you who post here are of Israeli background or actually live there, but as an outsider, neither Israeli or Palestinian, looking in this is what I see. I think I can connect with the pain and plight of the Palestinian people because of where I'm from myself. People who fight for a cause to end the foreign occupation of my land are painted as terrorists by a rich and powerful enemy. As for killing Hamas members, it would be, and is, pointless really. There's a phrase here in Ireland, I don't know if it's used anywhere else "you can kill the revolutionary, but never the revolution".

I very much agree ... the cause of the problems need to be looked at. But isn't that what the diplomatic peace process is all about? Given enough time, the Palestinian State would have been created. Israel isn't going to simply concede everything in return for nothing ... they need assurances from the Palestinians that Hamas will be reined in once a Palestinian state is created otherwise it was all for nothing. Hamas won't even give pause in their attacks to give peace a chance because they are too extremist, they want Zionists destroyed. I feel for the Palestinians as well, but Hamas needs to go.

I'm not too familiar with the IRA's goals and objectives but coming from Ireland, you probably dislike the British occupation right? If the British offer to negotiate a withdrawal once they can be assured no more IRA attacks occurr isn't that worth a pause in the fighting? Now lets say one wing of the IRA wants to kill and remove ALL brits from Ireland and vows to continue attacks. Wouldn't you say that it is in the best interests of Sinn Fein and all Irishmen to put a stop to this rogue groups actions? Granted I don't know the ins and outs of the entire situation but hopefully I've conveyed my point.

This bus attack was disgusting and extremely disturbing. I cant imagine what the families of those victims are feeling right now.

Bit we also must look at the irresponsibility of the Israeli government of helicopter bombing a crowded residential neighborhood in the likes of killing a hamas leader. Why is it irresponsible on the Isreali govt's behalf? Well this is how i see it. Targeting a Hamas and knowing that they would strike in retaliatory vengence during peace negotiations with Abbas has completely changed the political climate of the negotiations, creating more tension between both sides. Abbas on one hand cannot control Hamas, yet Sharon can control his military decisions. KNowing there would be vengence by hamas for trying to kill their leader as well as killing other innocent bystanders will obviously fuel the cycle of hatred.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King This bus attack was disgusting and extremely disturbing. I cant imagine what the families of those victims are feeling right now. Bit we also must look at the irresponsibility of the Israeli government of helicopter bombing a crowded residential neighborhood in the likes of killing a hamas leader. Why is it irresponsible on the Isreali govt's behalf? Well this is how i see it. Targeting a Hamas and knowing that they would strike in retaliatory vengence during peace negotiations with Abbas has completely changed the political climate of the negotiations, creating more tension between both sides. Abbas on one hand cannot control Hamas, yet Sharon can control his military decisions. KNowing there would be vengence by hamas for trying to kill their leader as well as killing other innocent bystanders will obviously fuel the cycle of hatred.

I'm afraid that Sharon is in a sense as bound as Abbas is. If Sharon had done nothing in response to the 4 army soldiers killed, he would have been tossed out of his position. If he had restrained himself and done nothing, what would happen about the next time Hamas struck? They have themselves declared that there is no truce and the fight shall continue ... as prime minister, Sharon must take action to reduce terrorism against Israel. Think about it, that is the number one agenda for all Israelis. Sharon faced massive criticisms from his own party for supporting the road map itself, yet he is sacrificing his career in trying to make it work. If Sharon makes all these concessions to the Palestinians and the terroist attacks continue and he STILL does nothing he would be branded as a traitor and tossed out of office.

The US has surprisingly condemned Sharon's attacks against Hamas thinking in much the same way as you do Cyrus. However, although I wish Sharon would not retaliate, I kind of understand the mentality in which he must retaliate.

I understand Sharon's position, however, it is the way he went attacking Hamas that has caused a fresh uprising. If he was to instead go in and arrest the Hamas leader without bombing a neighborhood, im sure the level of vengence would not be as great as it would be if they ended up killing innocent palestinians.

Dont get me wrong, im all for preventing and removing terrorism, but in this case, it is a complex one. As the Israeli PM, knowing the disgusting behaviour of Hamas and other terrorist organizations in Palestine by now is sufficient enough to comprehend the outcome of their actions. In other words, attacking Hamas comes with implications most of us would fully predict before hand. By removing this implication, that is one step in reducing the chances of vengeful retaliation from these targeted terrorist groups. Though they may occur, the chances of them occuring out of resntful feelings is suppressed, and if that means even saving one life from a terrorist attack, i am in support of it.

The only thing is that Hamas always strikes first. And while Sharon's retaliatory strikes are pissing Hamas off in a way they'll retaliate to the israeli retaliatory strikes, they're not the cause for the bombings, just a reaction to them.

I wonder, if the US were to help out the Palestinians and Israelis, it would be nice to help out wipe out those terrorists and Al Quaida instead of .blaeiojf forgive me. This is actually no news to anyone I guess, but just another sad one.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Well this is how i see it. Targeting a Hamas and knowing that they would strike in retaliatory vengence during peace negotiations with Abbas has completely changed the political climate of the negotiations, creating more tension between both sides.

i agree with drug_tito, we all know that hamas would strike ************ of what the israeli government does. israel's targeting of hamas officials doesnt cause them to strike back, they would have still stiked if israel would have shown restraint. there is no doubt that hamas wants to see an end to the road map and an end to israel

The leaders of these people are in a dilemma where they're damned if they do, damned if they don't--when it comes to retaliation. It's hard to fault them for defending and targeting the very people that cause the violence, but yes, it only serves to perpetuate the problem. I fear that all of this violence will continue until both sides can call for mutual peace and forgiveness and put the past behind them to work on making a better future. Hamas, unfortunately, is not helping any peace process.

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Originally posted by occrider I'm not too familiar with the IRA's goals and objectives but coming from Ireland, you probably dislike the British occupation right? If the British offer to negotiate a withdrawal once they can be assured no more IRA attacks occurr isn't that worth a pause in the fighting? Now lets say one wing of the IRA wants to kill and remove ALL brits from Ireland and vows to continue attacks. Wouldn't you say that it is in the best interests of Sinn Fein and all Irishmen to put a stop to this rogue groups actions? Granted I don't know the ins and outs of the entire situation but hopefully I've conveyed my point.

The traditional goal of Irish Republicans is for a British declaration of intent to withdraw from Ireland. Until that happens there will be groups willing to fight, which is fair enough in my opinion, ad they'll always have my support to carry on until it happens. The British occupation of Ireland isn't legitimate, therefore all Irish people have the right to physically resist. I see nothing wrong in attacking members of the occupation forces. And so long as Britain rules here carrying out any such actions will be legitimate. The likes of Gerry Adams and Provisional Sinn Fein have settled for so much less, resulting only to prolong foreign rule.
Like yourself and Ireland I can't claim to know the ins and outs of the palestinian situation, just my opinions are just from observation.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Bit we also must look at the irresponsibility of the Israeli government of helicopter bombing a crowded residential neighborhood in the likes of killing a hamas leader. Why is it irresponsible on the Isreali govt's behalf? Well this is how i see it. Targeting a Hamas and knowing that they would strike in retaliatory vengence during peace negotiations with Abbas has completely changed the political climate of the negotiations, creating more tension between both sides. Abbas on one hand cannot control Hamas, yet Sharon can control his military decisions. KNowing there would be vengence by hamas for trying to kill their leader as well as killing other innocent bystanders will obviously fuel the cycle of hatred.

Most of us on the board seem to agree that this attack came too quickly for it to be a retaliation.
I haven't decided whether I find the assasinatino attempt a well-made decission, but it was a legitimate one. Hamas have declared that peace is not a word included in their dictionary. Who knows, maybe the Israel Security Service has gained enough information to assume that Hamas activity will be increased...

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Originally posted by donegalredneck but how can you consider a Palestinian attack on Israeli military as a terrorist attack, and an Israeli attack on Palestinians as a legitmate military attack?

If only the targets were military... Terror is when they kill defenseless civillians in the masses.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS...east/index.html

heh, well this would be a good idea... however, I dont think the U.S. should be part of this international force either. since we are seen as Israel's biggest supporter, i dont think the palestinians would be appreciate our involvement.

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Originally posted by oDrori If only the targets were military... Terror is when they kill defenseless civillians in the masses.

Initially, The palestinians did attack the Israeli military...remmember a week and a half ago? and then the Isrealis retaliated by attacking the Hammas leader. from which the Hammas leader received few scratches and innocent civilians ended up getting killed.

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Originally posted by biodigit Initially, The palestinians did attack the Israeli military...remmember a week and a half ago? and then the Isrealis retaliated by attacking the Hammas leader. from which the Hammas leader received few scratches and innocent civilians ended up getting killed.

However, the subsequent Jerusalem bus bombing occurred too soon following the Israeli helicopter attack for it to be a response to that strike.

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Originally posted by occrider However, the subsequent Jerusalem bus bombing occurred too soon following the Israeli helicopter attack for it to be a response to that strike.

Amazing how well you understood the logic of the Middle East
Listen to this man.

Yet Israel has publicly announced that they will continue to attack hamas regardless of what the circumstances are.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=...ideast_Conflict

So in a way... both seem to be fueling the violence. I repeat this again.

If Israel were to reduce the amount of incursions on Palestinian land, less enemies will be formed. Also, this would reduce the amount of "vengence" produced as a result of innocent life lost which would therefore reduce the amount of young people willing to blow themselves up. If this saves even ONE life on either the Israeli or palestinian side, i think its the way to go.

Yes, but can't you day the same for the Palestinians?

No.. becuase Abbas does not have control over Hamas

Look, the simple truth is that whether or not Abbas has control over Hamas, they HAVE to stop the terrorism. Now, they'll say that they will stop as soon as Israel gives them land. But, I believe that Hamas will not stop then. Hamas will continue to wreak havoc all over the Middle East. In the future, who knows where they will end up.

In my honest opinion, I think the U.S. will at some point intervene. According to some article I read last weekend, "cease-fire is not part of Hamas' vocabulary." They will keep fighting regardless whether they get land or not, and I think the U.S. may have to send the military in.

Hamas will not stop until Israel is eliminated--they've been pretty clear about that. I'm sure Israel will stop their counterattacks when Hamas stops the senseless agression and unmitigated violence. Abbas needs to get some control or Arafat needs to be taken out. Hamas must realize that they'll never have their own nation if the continue their idiot tactics. Haven't they realized that every time they've tried to take on the Israeli military they've gotten their asses kicked?

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Originally posted by Shakka Hamas will not stop until Israel is eliminated--they've been pretty clear about that. I'm sure Israel will stop their counterattacks when Hamas stops the senseless agression and unmitigated violence. Abbas needs to get some control or Arafat needs to be taken out. Hamas must realize that they'll never have their own nation if the continue their idiot tactics. Haven't they realized that every time they've tried to take on the Israeli military they've gotten their asses kicked?

umm....Arafat has nothing to do with Hamas. If he were killed, it wouldn't have much bearing on Hamas's "warplan".

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Originally posted by DrummeRaver86 umm....Arafat has nothing to do with Hamas. If he were killed, it wouldn't have much bearing on Hamas's "warplan".

Yeah, besides Arafat's a prick who doesn't hold any real power over the Palestinians anymore.

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