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Re: Re: "YAAAAAY....lets take MORE land that isnt ours!"- Israel

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik ya ok, terrorists and cyrus QUEEN: "please dont build a fence...please...then we wont be able to bomb you as much" hahahahahaha I'm so happy that you're unhappy..... hahahahahahahahaha I'm so happy that almost everyone disagrees with you hahahahahahahahaha this thread made me so happy....thank you hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

What an intelligent response.

It looks like ive pissed you off once again. You make me laugh.

And almost EVRYONE in the international political scene condemns this, butyou are to stupid to understand that becuase you think the people on this forum make up what the world says.

And to me, it looks like you are happy when palestinians suffer.

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik are u kidding? he doesn't care about human life...in the other thread hes defending the shooting of a 2 month old. dont take anything he says seriously, his solution is the inihilation of the Israeli state.

You love to put words in peoples mouths to feel better about yourslef dont you. You are in denial. Please proove where i supported the killing of a two year old child???

PEople here know that i am pro-human rights, regardless of race.

P.S- I advise you to shut your mouth and change your sig before you get banned again like before little one.

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Originally posted by Izzy Drug Tito the way that the map is shown in Cyrus's picture makes it seem like its a high precentage this map more clearly shows that we're not taking about a big mojority of the west bank

Obviously a "majority" of the west bank isnt being taken but when you add the land behind the wall, it is a considerable amount. Little things add up. And from the documentary that i saw, it was 11- 23% of the westbank that will be taken if Israel follows the proposed line of the fence. WHY ARE THEY TAKING MORE LAND???

It is not theirs! No excuses! Do you think its right? The fence seems to dig deeper into the west bank. No compensation is given to the palestinians becuase their side of the fence doesnt go over the 1967 line.

Re: Re: Re: "YAAAAAY....lets take MORE land that isnt ours!"- Israel

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Originally posted by Cyrus King And almost EVRYONE in the international political scene condemns this, butyou are to stupid to understand that becuase you think the people on this forum make up what the world says.

yea, and the interanational political scence, alowed Hitler to conquer some Eouropean countries (i think Chehoslovakia in 1937 for example but i'm not sure), believing, it will "relax" him and bring peace to europe...blabla... after all, he was a legal leader

also the international political scene, did nothing to help the jews in teh holocoust (talking about interantion scene, not induviduals, and not italy's population). also in the later faces of the war, all they were asked by alot of jew representitives to do was the bombig of concentration and eradication camps, in order to asve the people who locked and suffer inside, and slowinf the human transfers and eradication. also Britain, didnt allow bouts with hallocoust survivirs to enter israel, while also sinking some of those bouts filled with tons of PEOPLE .

also the interantional political scene, never realy seriusly critisized the actions of Russia in Chechnia, even thoght the russian simply REMOVED towns with heavy heavy bombing...

and the interantional political scene, likes to critisize Israel on almost every move it makes. maybe because israel is so small and weak in comparison to Russia. maybe because we are jewish, who knows, fuck it

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Obviously a "majority" of the west bank isnt being taken but when you add the land behind the wall, it is a considerable amount. Little things add up. And from the documentary that i saw, it was 11- 23% of the westbank that will be taken if Israel follows the proposed line of the fence. WHY ARE THEY TAKING MORE LAND???

I think your documentray is HIGHLY speculative. First, right now the wall probably takes less then 1% of the land that is not the behind the pre-1967 lines. I can see the int. community allow Israel to take up to 15%, but beyond that there would be quiet an uproar. Again though, must the Palestinian population is not being effected by this wall.

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It is not theirs! No excuses!

It's not the Palestinians either! Not since 1967!

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Do you think its right? The fence seems to dig deeper into the west bank. No compensation is given to the palestinians becuase their side of the fence doesnt go over the 1967 line.

Why should Israel compensate these people? Did the Palestinians compensate the Israelis for all the military, property, and human damage caused by their wars of aggression?

Once you comprehend that this is disputed land - with both side having legitimate claims to it, you will see the only way to solve this is through negotiation and a cessation of violence. And yes, Israel is the stronger party in it, so you would expect to see a decision in their favor, as the Palesitnians hold out longer and longer the Israeli side will get stronger, and the Palestinian weaker, they need to understand they are on the losing end.. perhaps that will convience them to settle down and negotiate.

Re: Re: Re: Re: "YAAAAAY....lets take MORE land that isnt ours!"- Israel

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Originally posted by Flotser yea, and the interanational political scence, alowed Hitler to conquer some Eouropean countries (i think Chehoslovakia in 1937 for example but i'm not sure), believing, it will "relax" him and bring peace to europe...blabla... after all, he was a legal leader also the international political scene, did nothing to help the jews in teh holocoust (talking about interantion scene, not induviduals, and not italy's population). also in the later faces of the war, all they were asked by alot of jew representitives to do was the bombig of concentration and eradication camps, in order to asve the people who locked and suffer inside, and slowinf the human transfers and eradication. also Britain, didnt allow bouts with hallocoust survivirs to enter israel, while also sinking some of those bouts filled with tons of PEOPLE . also the interantional political scene, never realy seriusly critisized the actions of Russia in Chechnia, even thoght the russian simply REMOVED towns with heavy heavy bombing... and the interantional political scene, likes to critisize Israel on almost every move it makes. maybe because israel is so small and weak in comparison to Russia. maybe because we are jewish, who knows, fuck it

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser yea, and the interanational political scence, alowed Hitler to conquer some Eouropean countries (i think Chehoslovakia in 1937 for example but i'm not sure), believing, it will "relax" him and bring peace to europe...blabla... after all, he was a legal leader also the international political scene, did nothing to help the jews in teh holocoust (talking about interantion scene, not induviduals, and not italy's population). also in the later faces of the war, all they were asked by alot of jew representitives to do was the bombig of concentration and eradication camps, in order to asve the people who locked and suffer inside, and slowinf the human transfers and eradication. also Britain, didnt allow bouts with hallocoust survivirs to enter israel, while also sinking some of those bouts filled with tons of PEOPLE .

Since you brought up this subject, don't you see the similarity between the situation of the Jew in Nazi controlled Europe, and the situation of the Palestinian in the present day under the thumb of Israel?

Tell me this:

Is it true that Israelis who are Arab are not allowed to vote, or that they are deterred from voting? A Jewish friend of my dad's mentioned this, but I don't know for sure if it's true (I can't find confirmation of this). If this is true, then Israel can hardly be called a democracy. I'd consider it more of a theocracy (especially with those who are now in power).

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "YAAAAAY....lets take MORE land that isnt ours!"- Israel

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Originally posted by DaveSaenz Since you brought up this subject, don't you see the similarity between the situation of the Jew in Nazi controlled Europe, and the situation of the Palestinian in the present day under the thumb of Israel? Tell me this: Is it true that Israelis who are Arab are not allowed to vote, or that they are deterred from voting? A Jewish friend of my dad's mentioned this, but I don't know for sure if it's true (I can't find confirmation of this). If this is true, then Israel can hardly be called a democracy. I'd consider it more of a theocracy (especially with those who are now in power).

Your talking buulshit mate!
we have here 4 or more arab parties in our parlamnent, and they take about 10 percent or more of the parlament seats.
they do vote!

and fuck ,this is so horrible to compare the situation of the palestininas with the jews' situation in the holocuast,
only thinking about the fact that i need to exmplain it to someone , makes me feel horrible...

please please i beg you to go and read about the mass killing in the concentarion and eradication camps. people were threated 1000 times worse then animals. were killed and burned in chains. those people did nothing , nothing wrong or illigal, were just jews!
paletians once had nothing, no country, no goverment. With the assistance and aproval of Israel, they almost had their own country before the intifada. They had evolvong econmics, security forces, an Airport, sea police and were alowed to work inside israel and much more.
only the intifada and tons of terror, forced the israeli army to go inside again...
damn how can you even compare that,
realy man it makes me sick and my hands kinda shake.

please i beg you, please sit, open a history book, or watever and read about it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "YAAAAAY....lets take MORE land that isnt ours!"- Israel

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Originally posted by DaveSaenz Since you brought up this subject, don't you see the similarity between the situation of the Jew in Nazi controlled Europe, and the situation of the Palestinian in the present day under the thumb of Israel? Tell me this: Is it true that Israelis who are Arab are not allowed to vote, or that they are deterred from voting? A Jewish friend of my dad's mentioned this, but I don't know for sure if it's true (I can't find confirmation of this). If this is true, then Israel can hardly be called a democracy. I'd consider it more of a theocracy (especially with those who are now in power).

this palestinian / holocaust comparison is about the dumbest, most inultive, ugliest, and most cynic "myth" in today's political debates. The Palestinian side keeps enforcing it by calling Israeli Nazis (they might really believe it, seeing that no Arab children are taught the history of the Holocaust) and it's very sad to see they succeed.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "YAAAAAY....lets take MORE land that isnt ours!"- Israel

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Originally posted by DaveSaenz Since you brought up this subject, don't you see the similarity between the situation of the Jew in Nazi controlled Europe, and the situation of the Palestinian in the present day under the thumb of Israel?

as i recall,the jewish people in nazi germany didnt blew themselfs up in a large amount of people

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "YAAAAAY....lets take MORE land that isnt ours!"- Israel

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Originally posted by Viber as i recall,the jewish people in nazi germany didnt blew themselfs up in a large amount of people

they by and large didn't even resist. Their was one revolt in the Warsaw gehtto, and cases of Jewish partisans. However preceding the holocaust there was no justification agains the Jews -> they never took part in ANY resistance against the Germans (violent or non-violent, legal, or illegal), they were simply citizens of the countries they belonged too... but treated like dirt.

Voting is one part of democracy. Most of the rest is missing.

No separation between religion and state
Non-Jews are discriminated in most areas
Religious laws dictate the life-style of non-religious Israeli citizens
Even today, after 50 years of independence, Israel has no constitution
30% of all people living under Israeli control do not enjoy civil, or even human rights
Parts of the education system are controlled by the secret service
80% of Israel's resources belong to 10% of its citizens
More than 1000 people are held in administrative custody without being charged, and with no time limits
Israel is the only country that has a law that allows interrogators to use torture
All mass media channels are held by a handful of families
In Israel, the government has the right to shut down a newspaper
Non Jewish citizens are forbidden from buying state-owned land

Source: Gush Shalom website
http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/democracy_eng.html

I would say Israel is more like a militocracy. The military is the number one role model for children. Giving candy to soldiers is what children do on Halloween. Every Prime Minister of Israel was a general in the military. When parents ask their children what they want to be when they grow up, they don't say doctor or engineer or astronaut, they say a soldier.

Now you might respond by telling me that Arab states aren't democracies at all. Yes I know. There is no hint of democracy in the Arab world. It's dictatorships and monarchies that hopefully will fall in the future and be replaced by democracy.

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Originally posted by Palestinian Voting is one part of democracy. Most of the rest is missing. No separation between religion and state > ofcourse there is seperation, however, lets not forget the main reason for ceating this country was to gather all jews in a safe and secure country of their own, and put a stop to 2000 years of jews oppresion and antisemitism. in every releagion here, if they wish, poeple can marry under the "control" of tehir own relegion representitives, jews, muslems, cristians, druz.. and yes if you wish you can have a civil, non-religius marige. and remember its not a regular state again, this satate was created as a jewish country. Non-Jews are discriminated in most areas >well, if someone feels he is being discriminated only beacause of his relegion, he can go to the High Court, like in any other democracy. and man, you can understand that since and 30 or more years before the Independence of Israel, Jews suffred from countless atacks from the muslem sorrounding them, and you can understand why induviduals may feel uncomfortable to work with them or watever. and again, if there is a problem like that, we always have the high court, that is ABOVE the goverment. Religious laws dictate the life-style of non-religious Israeli citizens > Yes it is a little problem, but lets not exaggerate ok?. what happens is, that buses are not working in satarday. also some stores, prefer not to open in satturdays, maybe because of religion issues, or economic (afraid to loose the religius customres). also the big stores, and most of them, sell only Kosher food, but man if you want not kosher food there are alot of other stores\restaurants you can find it in. no law says anything about Kosher food, it all comes from respect to thetradition, and religion. Even today, after 50 years of independence, Israel has no constitution > SO WHAT? we have laws! plenty of them if i'm not getting wrong here, also UK dont have a constituation. and i'm sure there are more Eourupean democracies, witout a constitusaion. 50 years is not that much, and still alot of laws getting evolved and fixed. oh c'mon thats bullshit 30% of all people living under Israeli control do not enjoy civil, or even human rights > so what you are talkign about are the palestinians, living in the terretoris. look man, before the oslo agreement, after 67', Israel was the true Controller of the terretoris, however, the oslo agreements, gave alot of independence to the PLO. all the palestinian civil and human right, were in the control of the PLO. and man, until 2000, they had achieved alot, and i already wrote about it some posts before this one. but then the intifada again. still the PLO demands control of the palertinian population , so dont go and blame Israel here. Parts of the education system are controlled by the secret service > hmmmm....... what parts? what are you talking about? 80% of Israel's resources belong to 10% of its citizens > well, i dont know much about that issue... and just know, that this sittuation , is always getting better, it just takes time, its not Comunism here! More than 1000 people are held in administrative custody without being charged, and with no time limits > those people, also so called Terrorists. Israel is the only country that has a law that allows interrogators to use torture > not on citizen of israel, also not arab citizens. maybe when it concerns terror militants, that their invistigation can help the army to prevent future terror attack. All mass media channels are held by a handful of families In Israel, the government has the right to shut down a newspaper Non Jewish citizens are forbidden from buying state-owned land > also in other countries , democracies in Eorupe you can find the same sittuation. its Buiesness, its normal. its a democracy, not a Comunism ! I would say Israel is more like a militocracy. The military is the number one role model for children. Giving candy to soldiers is what children do on Halloween. Every Prime Minister of Israel was a general in the military. When parents ask their children what they want to be when they grow up, they don't say doctor or engineer or astronaut, they say a soldier. > OH PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEE man you just dont know what your talking about! no one here wants to be a slodier. everybody simply has to do it here for 3 years as an obligatory! and man if not our brave millitary, There was not ISrael, and you know it, and fuck give me another democracy in the world that was attacked so many times by so many countries in a time only in its 50 years of indipendence (and much before)!? ha!? its bullshit what your talking about. and like USA is noot proud of its military! and fuck it man, one thinng is when a soldier is a model, when on the other side the suicide bombers are the model. and i did spend 11 years inside education system in israel. and you know what they always talk about with kids? no wars. no soldiers. little kids sing and write songs and papers in school talking about pigeons with olive leafs in their mouth. singing songs about peace. fuck!, you know nothing realy. and if you compare it to the education undr the PLO....maaaan

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Originally posted by Palestinian Voting is one part of democracy. Most of the rest is missing. No separation between religion and state Non-Jews are discriminated in most areas Religious laws dictate the life-style of non-religious Israeli citizens Even today, after 50 years of independence, Israel has no constitution 30% of all people living under Israeli control do not enjoy civil, or even human rights Parts of the education system are controlled by the secret service 80% of Israel's resources belong to 10% of its citizens More than 1000 people are held in administrative custody without being charged, and with no time limits Israel is the only country that has a law that allows interrogators to use torture All mass media channels are held by a handful of families In Israel, the government has the right to shut down a newspaper Non Jewish citizens are forbidden from buying state-owned land Source: Gush Shalom website http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/democracy_eng.html I would say Israel is more like a militocracy. The military is the number one role model for children. Giving candy to soldiers is what children do on Halloween. Every Prime Minister of Israel was a general in the military. When parents ask their children what they want to be when they grow up, they don't say doctor or engineer or astronaut, they say a soldier. Now you might respond by telling me that Arab states aren't democracies at all. Yes I know. There is no hint of democracy in the Arab world. It's dictatorships and monarchies that hopefully will fall in the future and be replaced by democracy.

what kind of stupid "post" is that??!
most of the time you cant even talk about politics in my school,only pure history!
and any israel that really knows the system knows that the media is controlled by leftist people but still its the most objective media in the world.

gush shalom are not israelies or somethings they are just shit,theyre site is hiding the israeli side and only shows the Pal" side,these are people that have a problem with themselfs and not just with israel,i mean how can you justify suicide boombing and to not understand your side that wants your best in any kind of way??!


and about the soldiers as role modals,i admit that yes,most kids in israel look up and respect the people who guard them and defend them from getting killed,you right its horrible!most of them even respect their parents!

and about the 30% that dont have citizenship,they dont want it anyway,after all,for what cause the pal" are ""struggling""?!


and now i"m going to fasten towrds yom-kipor,i hope that our friendly neighbors or the struggling poor palestinians wont attack us again in that day when we are weak to satisfy their blood hunger

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Originally posted by Palestinian No separation between religion and state

israeli courts do seperate religion and state when deciding judicial matters.

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Non-Jews are discriminated in most areas

to do so would be illegal

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Religious laws dictate the life-style of non-religious Israeli citizens

the only way i see this as possible is during holidays. but every country has holidays based on religious reseans. other then that i cant think of any other religious laws that dictate the life-style of others.

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When parents ask their children what they want to be when they grow up, they don't say doctor or engineer or astronaut, they say a soldier.

thats is purely your imaginiation. i wanted to be an engineer and not a soldier, that is why i am in texas right now.

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Originally posted by Viber what kind of stupid "post" is that??! most of the time you cant even talk about politics in my school,only pure history! and any israel that really knows the system knows that the media is controlled by leftist people but still its the most objective media in the world. gush shalom are not israelies or somethings they are just shit,theyre site is hiding the israeli side and only shows the Pal" side,these are people that have a problem with themselfs and not just with israel,i mean how can you justify suicide boombing and to not understand your side that wants your best in any kind of way??! and about the soldiers as role modals,i admit that yes,most kids in israel look up and respect the people who guard them and defend them from getting killed,you right its horrible!most of them even respect their parents! and about the 30% that dont have citizenship,they dont want it anyway,after all,for what cause the pal" are ""struggling""?! and now i"m going to fasten towrds yom-kipor,i hope that our friendly neighbors or the struggling poor palestinians wont attack us again in that day when we are weak to satisfy their blood hunger

Oh yes, we forgot...the world revolves around Vibers 15 year old experiences...hhahahahahhahhhaha

its so funny to read your responses, you really make me laugh at you. Whenever you dont agree, everything becomes "a piece of shit".

I will take Gush Shaloms research over your idiocy any day Vibrator.

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Originally posted by Izzy Drug Tito the way that the map is shown in Cyrus's picture makes it seem like its a high precentage this map more clearly shows that we're not taking about a big mojority of the west bank

I realize it is not the majority of the land. Still, the question is why is any land being taken?

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 I realize it is not the majority of the land. Still, the question is why is any land being taken?

to ensure the safety of israeli citizens until a just and lasting peace agreement can be settled on between palestinians and israelis.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy to ensure the safety of israeli citizens until a just and lasting peace agreement can be settled on between palestinians and israelis.

How are olive orchards a threat? There is no excuse to take more land.... thats all. You seem to be using this excuse over and over to justify this theft. If taking land is the solution todecrease violence, why is this year so bloody?

Hey maybe if Israel just fully took over the west bank, confiscated the land and said its "all ours" the violence will stop

Temper Temper everyone. It is a well known fact that Arab Israelis are second class citizens in Israel. The Arab in Israel is usually the one cleaning the toilet or serving the coffee. We had an Israeli high school girl who visited our university last year and she is a proud refusnik who spoke of children giving candy to soldiers and that Israel is a military culture. It was only in the 80s where it became illegal to post "Jewish-ONLY" for jobs. If Israel is a true democracy, it shouldn't be worried about its "threatening" demographic problem. It should allow the Right of Return and accept a binational one-state solution with freedom and equality for all. But Israel wants to keep its Jewish character. Sorry guys, but you can't have a democractic Jewish state just as you cannot have a democratic Islamic state. You can't have a democratic state that concerns itself with the religion of its population. That's just an oxymoron.

Did you read the recent Israeli democracy index? You should look into that.

If you want me to stop talking about what children in Israel are being taught, then you should stop talking about what Palestinians are being taught. Let's not forget that Palestinians are born into occupation and have never experienced anything but occupation.

You cannot ensure the safety of anyone by taking another person's land. Good luck.

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Originally posted by Palestinian You cannot ensure the safety of anyone by taking another person's land. Good luck.

i disagree.

ever since israel fenced off the entire gaza strip there have been no terrorist suicide bombers from that area. Such a statistic as this convinces me of the potential safety such a fence would bring israel if it was implemented in the west bank.

i'll have more to add later when i get back from school (yes im here on sunday )

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Originally posted by Palestinian Sorry guys, but you can't have a democractic Jewish state just as you cannot have a democratic Islamic state.

I agree 100%

Even in the USA there are still obstacles to being a true democracy because of religion. They tend to me minor however, and for the most part people can worship as they wish.

True, and if you go by the basics of democracy it is impossible to force a country to accept democracy. Democracy believes the people have the right to choose the form of government they want, so as soon as the U.S. is done in Iraq, it'll most likely become a theocracy.

I think both sides are run by total ass-hats, and the rest of the world should leave and let the idiots kill each other. I mean its getting rediculious, and theres honestly issues with similar if not greater importance with a greater chance of success.

Well I'm glad you admit that you support taking someone else's land. There should be no excuse to it. There can never be coexistence with such a practice. And are you forgetting that most of Hamas operate in Gaza? A fence won't stop attacks. This apartheid wall is also a sign of defeat for Israel because they have failed to acheive peace with their neighbours. And if you learn from the past, walls have always fallen in the end. They were always a symbol of oppression and apartheid. This wall cuts deep through Palestinian territory, separating the West Bank into different sections. And it looks like the settlements have acheived their primary purpose. Israel is building the wall around the settlements therefore taking more land from the West Bank. The settlers, who had been violently oposed to the wall, became its strongest supporters when they were shown the new maps. Actually they were actively involved in designing the new path.

In the early stages of construction:
201,000 Palestinians are barred in enclaves, in severe violation of their rights under international law.
67 villages are separated from their means of livelihood.
2,800 acres of Palestinian land were confiscated.
83,000 olive trees were uprooted.
30 water wells were confiscated.
35,000 meters of water infrastructure were destroyed by the bulldozers.

History shows that a country can never acheive security or peace by confining an entire people behind a wall. The imprisonment of a desperate people is a certain recipe for violence and hatred.

The next planned phase of the wall penetrates, at some points, 20 km into Palestinian territory. If this phase is completed, 400,000 Palestinians will find themselves west of the wall, cut off from the
Palestinian towns around which their lives revolve. At this point, the Palestinians will lose 25% of their land. But percentages do not tell the whole story: This 25% contains nearly 80% of their fertile land And 65% of the Palestinian water resources. For an agricultural society like this, that represents a mortal blow.

This is a humanitarian crisis. Targetting civilians isn't limited to shooting at them or blowing them up. Taking away their human rights by taking their land, therefore their jobs and food and water is also targetting civilians. Confiscation of property is targetting civilians. The wall must fall.

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