TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- Israel sends veiled threat to Iran
Pages (2): « 1 [2]
| quote: |
| Originally posted by hardcore trancer hmmm when was the last time Iran used a nuclear bomb or any other WMD against Isreal or any other countries?? |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Spankster Did the USA not have a civil war with slavery being one of the major sticking points? Slavery as a first step needed to be abolished in order to satisfy the requirement that all peoples are equal under a democracy. The birth of democracy certainly didnt abolish racism completely from american society, but it was a start and in time(with much reluctance) the rights of blacks and women evolved to satisfy the true requirements of a democratic institution. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Izzy how could they use it if they dont yet have it? |
Just thought this maybe of interest..........Link
Israel deploys nuclear arms in submarines
Peter Beaumont in London and Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem
Sunday October 12, 2003
The Observer
Israeli and American officials have admitted collaborating to deploy US-supplied Harpoon cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads in Israel's fleet of Dolphin-class submarines, giving the Middle East's only nuclear power the ability to strike at any of its Arab neighbours.
The unprecedented disclosure came as Israel announced that states 'harbouring terrorists' are legitimate targets, responding to Syria's declaration of its right to self-defence should Israel bomb its territory again.
According to Israeli and Bush administration officials interviewed by the Los Angeles Times, the sea-launch capability gives Israel the ability to target Iran more easily should the Iranians develop their own nuclear weapons.
Although it has been long suspected that Israel bought three German diesel-electric submarines with the specific aim of arming them with nuclear cruise missiles, the admission that the two countries had collaborated in arming the fleet with a nuclear-capable weapons system is significant at a time of growing crisis between Israel and its neighbours.
According to the paper, the disclosure by two US officials is designed to discourage Israel's enemies from against launching an attack amid rapidly escalating tensions in the region following a raid by Israeli jets on an alleged terrorist training camp near the Syrian capital, Damascus.
In a clear echo of the Bush doctrine of pre-emption, the Foreign Ministry's senior spokesman, Gideon Meir, insisted: 'Israel views every state that is harbouring terrorist organisations and the leaders of those terrorist organisations who are attacking innocent citizens of the state of Israel as legitimate targets out of self defence.'
The disclosure, is certain to complicate UN-led efforts to persuade Iran to make a full disclosure of its nuclear programme. It will also complicate the Bush administration's efforts to reach out to moderate Arab states when they are pressing for an equal disclosure of Israel's nuclear weapons programme.
Although Israel has long been known to possess nuclear weapons, in the past it has abided by a deal struck with President Richard Nixon in 1969 that it would maintain 'ambiguity' about its retention of weapons in exchange for the US turning a blind eye. According to reliable estimates, Israel has around 200 nuclear warheads.
It acquired the three Dolphin class submarines, which can remain at sea for a month, in the late Nineties. They are equipped with six torpedo tubes suitable for the 21-inch torpedoes that are normally used on most submarines.
It had been understood they would carry a version of the 'Popeye Turbo' cruise missiles being developed by Rafael Armament Development Authority of Israel.
Israel's seaborne nuclear doctrine is designed to place one submarine in the Persian Gulf, the other in the Mediterranean, with a third on standby. Secret test launches of the cruise missile systems were understood to have been undertaken in May 2000 when Israel carried out tests in the Indian Ocean.
'We tolerate nuclear weapons in Israel for the same reason we tolerate them in Britain and France,' one of the LA Times' sources told the paper. 'We don't regard Israel as a threat.'
Despite the anonymity of the source, the sentiment is almost identical to that of the US Under Secretary of State for Arms Control, John Bolton, who told British journalists last week that America was not interested in taking Israel to task for its continuing development of nuclear weapons because it was not a 'threat' to the United States.
Even if Bolton was not one of the sources for the story, his comments, coming on top of that of the two other sources, suggest the degree to which senior members of the Bush administration can now not even be bothered to hide America's assistance and encouragement for Israel's nuclear programme.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Spankster Just thought this maybe of interest..........Link Israel deploys nuclear arms in submarines Peter Beaumont in London and Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem Sunday October 12, 2003 The Observer Israeli and American officials have admitted collaborating to deploy US-supplied Harpoon cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads in Israel's fleet of Dolphin-class submarines, giving the Middle East's only nuclear power the ability to strike at any of its Arab neighbours. The unprecedented disclosure came as Israel announced that states 'harbouring terrorists' are legitimate targets, responding to Syria's declaration of its right to self-defence should Israel bomb its territory again. According to Israeli and Bush administration officials interviewed by the Los Angeles Times, the sea-launch capability gives Israel the ability to target Iran more easily should the Iranians develop their own nuclear weapons. Although it has been long suspected that Israel bought three German diesel-electric submarines with the specific aim of arming them with nuclear cruise missiles, the admission that the two countries had collaborated in arming the fleet with a nuclear-capable weapons system is significant at a time of growing crisis between Israel and its neighbours. According to the paper, the disclosure by two US officials is designed to discourage Israel's enemies from against launching an attack amid rapidly escalating tensions in the region following a raid by Israeli jets on an alleged terrorist training camp near the Syrian capital, Damascus. In a clear echo of the Bush doctrine of pre-emption, the Foreign Ministry's senior spokesman, Gideon Meir, insisted: 'Israel views every state that is harbouring terrorist organisations and the leaders of those terrorist organisations who are attacking innocent citizens of the state of Israel as legitimate targets out of self defence.' The disclosure, is certain to complicate UN-led efforts to persuade Iran to make a full disclosure of its nuclear programme. It will also complicate the Bush administration's efforts to reach out to moderate Arab states when they are pressing for an equal disclosure of Israel's nuclear weapons programme. Although Israel has long been known to possess nuclear weapons, in the past it has abided by a deal struck with President Richard Nixon in 1969 that it would maintain 'ambiguity' about its retention of weapons in exchange for the US turning a blind eye. According to reliable estimates, Israel has around 200 nuclear warheads. It acquired the three Dolphin class submarines, which can remain at sea for a month, in the late Nineties. They are equipped with six torpedo tubes suitable for the 21-inch torpedoes that are normally used on most submarines. It had been understood they would carry a version of the 'Popeye Turbo' cruise missiles being developed by Rafael Armament Development Authority of Israel. Israel's seaborne nuclear doctrine is designed to place one submarine in the Persian Gulf, the other in the Mediterranean, with a third on standby. Secret test launches of the cruise missile systems were understood to have been undertaken in May 2000 when Israel carried out tests in the Indian Ocean. 'We tolerate nuclear weapons in Israel for the same reason we tolerate them in Britain and France,' one of the LA Times' sources told the paper. 'We don't regard Israel as a threat.' Despite the anonymity of the source, the sentiment is almost identical to that of the US Under Secretary of State for Arms Control, John Bolton, who told British journalists last week that America was not interested in taking Israel to task for its continuing development of nuclear weapons because it was not a 'threat' to the United States. Even if Bolton was not one of the sources for the story, his comments, coming on top of that of the two other sources, suggest the degree to which senior members of the Bush administration can now not even be bothered to hide America's assistance and encouragement for Israel's nuclear programme. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Spankster Did the USA not have a civil war with slavery being one of the major sticking points? Slavery as a first step needed to be abolished in order to satisfy the requirement that all peoples are equal under a democracy. The birth of democracy certainly didnt abolish racism completely from american society, but it was a start and in time(with much reluctance) the rights of blacks and women evolved to satisfy the true requirements of a democratic institution. |
Ha ha........i'm fully aware that australia is a pretty racist country, and the currrent government got there defying what democracy is all about. The australian government is a coalition government of 2 political parties, and originally took office with the help of the stupid preferential system. If the election was kept simple on single preffered party basis then there would have been no way john howard wouldve been prime minister in the first place. So much for democracy, the majority of the people didnt get the man they wanted. Australia, just like america are kidding themselves when they gloat about being democracies.
He got re-elected through his racist policies against refugees in the middle east, in a time the world was in fear and uncertainty during sep 11, not to mention his stance on the stolen generation of the aboriginals. I despise that mutha ******!
| quote: |
| Originally posted by hardcore trancer hmmm when was the last time Iran used a nuclear bomb or any other WMD against Isreal or any other countries?? |
Ya I was going to mention that Israel had previously bought 3 dolphin-class submarines from Germany with the fairly obvious unstated intention of deploying them in the Arabian gulf as a deterent to Iran.
I believe with this purchase Israel has ceded the option to attack Iran's nuclear program (and many high officials in Israel have already declared that the window to attack Iran's nuclear program has closed). From this I believe an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities today, might have to involve tactical nukes - Israel might as well transfer all the Palestinians out of the territories while they're at it if they chose to do that however.
What is new is the US involvement with Israel, the US had been previously unwilling to divolge its cruise missle technology to Israel, and Israel had already developed quiet capable missles on its own (it did put a satilite in space after all) so I thought there would be no need in this. I think the only reason the US contributed is so they would have some say in this whole aspect.
I might also add, that Indian co-operation is very pivital in Israel's the muslims not using their "islamic bomb". Israel has tightened military relations considerably with India, and I believe India is also following a similar approach of aquiring submarines as a deterent.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Spankster Just thought this maybe of interest..........Link Israel deploys nuclear arms in submarines Peter Beaumont in London and Conal Urquhart in Jerusalem Sunday October 12, 2003 The Observer Israeli and American officials have admitted collaborating to deploy US-supplied Harpoon cruise missiles armed with nuclear warheads in Israel's fleet of Dolphin-class submarines, giving the Middle East's only nuclear power the ability to strike at any of its Arab neighbours. The unprecedented disclosure came as Israel announced that states 'harbouring terrorists' are legitimate targets, responding to Syria's declaration of its right to self-defence should Israel bomb its territory again. According to Israeli and Bush administration officials interviewed by the Los Angeles Times, the sea-launch capability gives Israel the ability to target Iran more easily should the Iranians develop their own nuclear weapons. Although it has been long suspected that Israel bought three German diesel-electric submarines with the specific aim of arming them with nuclear cruise missiles, the admission that the two countries had collaborated in arming the fleet with a nuclear-capable weapons system is significant at a time of growing crisis between Israel and its neighbours. According to the paper, the disclosure by two US officials is designed to discourage Israel's enemies from against launching an attack amid rapidly escalating tensions in the region following a raid by Israeli jets on an alleged terrorist training camp near the Syrian capital, Damascus. In a clear echo of the Bush doctrine of pre-emption, the Foreign Ministry's senior spokesman, Gideon Meir, insisted: 'Israel views every state that is harbouring terrorist organisations and the leaders of those terrorist organisations who are attacking innocent citizens of the state of Israel as legitimate targets out of self defence.' The disclosure, is certain to complicate UN-led efforts to persuade Iran to make a full disclosure of its nuclear programme. It will also complicate the Bush administration's efforts to reach out to moderate Arab states when they are pressing for an equal disclosure of Israel's nuclear weapons programme. Although Israel has long been known to possess nuclear weapons, in the past it has abided by a deal struck with President Richard Nixon in 1969 that it would maintain 'ambiguity' about its retention of weapons in exchange for the US turning a blind eye. According to reliable estimates, Israel has around 200 nuclear warheads. It acquired the three Dolphin class submarines, which can remain at sea for a month, in the late Nineties. They are equipped with six torpedo tubes suitable for the 21-inch torpedoes that are normally used on most submarines. It had been understood they would carry a version of the 'Popeye Turbo' cruise missiles being developed by Rafael Armament Development Authority of Israel. Israel's seaborne nuclear doctrine is designed to place one submarine in the Persian Gulf, the other in the Mediterranean, with a third on standby. Secret test launches of the cruise missile systems were understood to have been undertaken in May 2000 when Israel carried out tests in the Indian Ocean. 'We tolerate nuclear weapons in Israel for the same reason we tolerate them in Britain and France,' one of the LA Times' sources told the paper. 'We don't regard Israel as a threat.' Despite the anonymity of the source, the sentiment is almost identical to that of the US Under Secretary of State for Arms Control, John Bolton, who told British journalists last week that America was not interested in taking Israel to task for its continuing development of nuclear weapons because it was not a 'threat' to the United States. Even if Bolton was not one of the sources for the story, his comments, coming on top of that of the two other sources, suggest the degree to which senior members of the Bush administration can now not even be bothered to hide America's assistance and encouragement for Israel's nuclear programme. |
ya I should of caught that one earlier myself.
The harpoon isn't really a cruise missle either, it was designed as a ship to ship missle and has very limited range.
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib...s/wep-harp.html
Yea, good call Izzy. I'm a huge fan of jane's and I'm upset at myself that I forgot that the harpoon can only contain a < 250kg warhead. There's a reason why ssbn's have large diameter vertical launch missile tubes!
Edit: And actually when you really think about the whole situation, there really is no need for Israeli SLBMs (submarine launched ballistic missiles). It simply makes no sense ... it's not like Israel needs to traverse thousands of miles of oceans in order to project power or to gain a significant amount of lead time to carry out a first strike limited exchange. The fact of the matter is, is that they can accomplish such an attack quite competantly with their air force armed with slam missiles ... or even with mrbms/srbms. What strategic/tactical advantage is there to launch a nuclear missiles a few miles north of where you would normally launch them hehe?
This is pretty scary ...
Vesa.. What do you see of this Neo-con activity? Is Larouche being realistic?
| quote: |
Beast-Men' Cheney, Sharon Plan New, Nuclear Mideast Wars Oct. 14, 2003�The following release was issued today by the LaRouche in 2004 political committee. Lyndon LaRouche, one of only two Democratic Party Presidential candidates certified by the Federal Election Commission (FEC) as qualified for Federal matching funds, issued a strong warning on Oct. 14 that the world is facing a major eruption of war in the Near East in the immediate weeks ahead, unless President Bush can be made to intervene forcefully and publicly, to curb Israel's breakaway-ally regime under Ariel Sharon. LaRouche said that we have reached a strategic danger-point where, unless "Beast-man" Dick Cheney is dumped from the Bush Administration, and "Beast-man" Sharon is stopped, a new Middle East war is virtually certain between now and some point in November, with the possible new, horrific feature of Israeli use of nuclear weapons against targets inside the territory of Iran. Israel is economically and strategically bankrupt, and hopeless. Sharon is losing ground. Under these circumstances, the mad-dog faction in Israel could use nuclear weapons versus Iran. LaRouche drew attention to the report, published in the Oct. 12, 2003 Los Angeles Times ("Israel Adds Subs to Its Atomic Ability," by Douglas Frantz), that Israel now has deployed submarines, carrying nuclear-armed Harpoon missiles, able to strike Iran and other regional targets. LaRouche further warned: The U.S. military has no capability for carrying out any further wars, so long as American forces are tied down in Iraq�unless the U.S.A., too, were to resort to the use of nuclear weapons. Thus, if the current, planned Israeli war stunt is not stopped now, we also face the prospect�going into the pre-U.S.A. election Autumn of 2004�of a desperate Cheney-led and chicken-hawk-dominated Bush Administration being tempted to use nuclear weapons against North Korea. At this moment, the neo-conservatives in and around the Bush Administration are pushing for Israel to use nuclear weapons to set the precedent for the later American use of mini-nukes against targets in North Korea. The controllers of this neo-con war-party apparatus need their Sharon asset to do the job, to set off this chain of events. LaRouche concluded, that an American Presidential crackdown on Sharon is the only near-certain way to stop this Sharon war plan. The danger in the immediate period ahead is that Israel attacks Syria and then Iran, leading to a U.S.A. nuclear attack on North Korea just prior to the 2004 Presidential elections. Cheney's Steps to War At the center of this war drive, and the protection of Sharon, is Vice President Dick Cheney, who has recently revived the drive to attack Syria and Iran�through a Sharon-led Israeli "surrogate war." A timeline of recent events highlights Cheney's role in this mad effort to blow up the Near East: In early September 2003, David Wurmser, the primary author of "A Clean Break"�the July 1996 scheme to wreck the Oslo Peace Accords, prepared for then-Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu�was transferred from the State Department arms control office, where he was special assistant to John Bolton, to the Office of the Vice President, replacing Eric Edelman, who was named to be the new U.S. Ambassador to Turkey. At that point, Cheney revived the targeting of Syria and Lebanon, which had been scotched at the close of the Iraq war in late April, despite feverish efforts at the time by the war party to extend the Iraq war into Syria. On Sept. 16, again at Cheney's urging, Bolton was given the green light to testify before a House Foreign Affairs subcommittee, on Syria's role in terrorism and its illegal WMD program. This testimony had been stopped a month prior, when the CIA produced a 38-page document, disputing many of Bolton's charges against Syria. The day after Bolton's testimony, the same subcommittee heard rabid testimony on Syria and Lebanon from Daniel Pipes and Gen. Michel Aoun, former Lebanese Prime Minister (1988-90) and a prop in the Hudson Institute drive for a war against Syria. The Hudson Institute Mideast project is headed by Meyrav Wurmser, wife of David Wurmser, now of Cheney's staff. She also co-authored "A Clean Break," along with Richard Perle, Charles Fairbanks (Paul Wolfowitz's closest friend and disciple), Douglas Feith and others. On Oct. 5, Israel bombed sites inside Syrian territory. While the attacks were ostensibly in retaliation for a suicide bombing in Haifa the day before, the Israeli Cabinet had in fact approved the bombing raids into Syria six weeks earlier. Sharon's announcement of the Syria raids used formulations taken verbatim from President Bush's March 20, 2003 announcement of the launching of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Oct. 9, the Bush Administration lifted its opposition to the Syria Accountability and Restoration of Lebanese Sovereignty Act�a bill modeled on the Iraq Liberation Act�that would pave the way for sanctions and "regime change" in Syria and Lebanon. The bill is being pushed through Congress on a fast track, delivering an unambiguous message to Sharon that he has a green light from Washington to attack Syria. Oct. 12 marked the opening of a five-day conference in Jerusalem, which can only be described as a "gathering of the beasts" to prepare for the new wars, targeting both Syria and Iran. The event is co-sponsored by the U.S.A.-based Christian Zionist front, the National Unity Coalition for Israel (NUCI); the City of Jerusalem; the Israeli Ministry of Tourism; and the Mikhail Chernoy Foundation, a Russian Mafiya front in Israel. Along with the most rabid Israeli "Beast-men"�from Bibi Netanyahu, Rabbi Benny Elon, Effi Eitam, Ehud Olmert, Avigdor Lieberman to Uzi Landau�other featured speakers include Richard Perle, Frank Gaffney, Alan Keyes, Yossef Bodansky, Daniel Pipes and Rev. Mike Evans. Partner-in-Crime Is Shultz LaRouche emphasized that Cheney is accountable for the Iraq fiasco. Cheney was the point-man for the war party faction. He is accountable for the fact that the U.S. military is at the breaking point. If President Bush and Secretary of State Powell fail to get 50,000 foreign troops into Iraq before year's end, then the Pentagon will be forced to call up 100,000 more reservists and National Guardsmen for duty in Iraq, to rotate out the existing forces. The military hospitals are overflowing with casualties from the Iraq war. Some eyewitnesses describe it as a situation unseen in the United States since the Civil War. This is the hidden scandal of the ongoing Iraq war, a scandal that is too big to hide. And Cheney's partner-in-crime, LaRouche concluded, the real "Beast-meister," is George Shultz. He is not only the Godfather of the neo-con team that seized control of the Bush Administration before it even came into office. Shultz is also the man behind the Arnold Schwarzenegger recall election atrocity in California. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.