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A man goes to the market to buy a loaf of bread.
For some reason, the cheapest loaf of bread costs $5.
"That's bullshit" he says.
So instead of paying for the bread, he steals it.
However, he gets caught stealing, and is fined $1000.
The next day, he returns to the market
The price of bread is now $10.
"That's bullshit" he says.
"Besides, these jackasses cost me $1000 yesterday," he says.
So instead of paying for the bread, he steals it.
However, he gets caught stealing, and is fined $1000.

This is the terrorist mentality. It should come as no surprise that they would exhibit this kind of irrational behavior.

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Originally posted by Yoepus Ya, I'm curious what do you think of my conspiracy theory? Or should I wait for Vesa and a neo-con edition?

I enjoyed it thoroughly.

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Originally posted by occrider Hmmm now that I mention that, the irony of the most holiest of places being the most violent of places makes one think.

LOL I've realized that same irony. Irony's a bitch ain't she?

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Originally posted by occrider and pretty much all parties have chemical/biological weapons. Syria most probably has them, and Egypt most certainly has them as evidenced by their use in their war against Yemen (HA how many people know that???).

Not I! But Faux news didn't shove it down my throat (since Egypt is our ally), so that's probably why.

wow Arbiter, brilliant powers of deduction, the analogy cleared it all up for me

A government goes to the gaza strip to murder some "terrorists"
Collatoral damage includes 10 civilians, (a small price to pay for "justice")
relatives of the civilians see this government murdering their people and say "That's bullshit"
So instead of letting a powerful and oppressive government pillage and murder their people, they decide to fight back
this government then retaliates more people die, so more people decide to take "justice" into their own hands etc etc
and they all lived happily ever after

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Arbit This is the terrorist mentality. It should come as no surprise that they would exhibit this kind of irrational behavior.

If you find a "terrorists" mentality so predictable that you can anticipate their future moves, what will break the cycle of violence? Perhaps another completely irrational incursion into Palestine? Are you capable of rational thought arbiter? I'd hate to see someone with such a talent for creating colourful analogies to be divulged as an ignorant hypocrite. Your apothegm is completely devoid of logic, and quite irrational, therefore you must be a terrorist!!

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Echo I could probably find a site that says Danish girls are the hottest sexiest things on the planet. That doesn't mean it is true.

terrorism is also within the eye of the beholder, and is as aesthetic and subjective to individual bias as beauteousness

one persons freedom fighter is another persons terrorist

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Occrid I'm not right wing!!!! LOL!

you're not?

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Occrider Egypt most certainly has them as evidenced by their use in their war against Yemen (HA how many people know that???).

ya, it was on the news ;p

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Originally posted by occrider Although they still primarily rely on American jets for their airforce (i believe), their merkava tank

Ya, actually Israel has made their own aircraft, the Kfir most notablly - but is very dated, comparable to a phantom F4. There was also a recent proposal for Israel to create a new modern jet, and Israel create a couple prototypes of these - it was basically the result of stealing the French plans for their planes.

Israel however as it saw, can't afford to make its own aircraft - unless it exports them by the masses. It will have to let the superpowers, or those that pretend to be (the French) try and do it instead.

As for perhaps the point Echo Silence was getting at.

Yes the Israeli army is probably the best army in the middle east - but it's not the largest. These are two different thing. I will concede their superiority - but their superiority is never a garuntee, unless Israel works to maintain this military superiority it will be overcome, and put Israel in dire straights. The Arabs have numbers, and they have money (think oil). The Jews have brains.

As for Tahti, you can't find any info on weapons of mass destructions in the region - as all countries in the region officially claim they don't have any or are very ambigious about it. There are estimates Israel has 100 - 200 nuclear weapons, I've heard reports that Egypt might have 1 or 2, but I don't know how authentic this is.

As for who has a more modern military, I would wager my bet honestly on Egypt, who has been purchasing almost entirely new equipement from the Americans for the past well, long time. Israel has new equipment yes, but even they can't afford to upgrade all their machinary. For instance, out of the 500+ planes in the Israel Airforce, I think only around 15-30 are F15s, the bulk of the fighter wing consisting of out dated, reserve, F4s.

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Originally posted by tathi you're not?

What just because he said he's pro-Israel means he has to be right wing?

Oh wait, you do have a point nevermind...

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Originally posted by Yoepus Since the Palestinians have no intelligence ( ) I ruled them out.

You dickhead, that is the most pathetic racist generalisation i've seen thus far.

If the Palestinians are so stupid and Israelies are so intelligent surely Israel would have figured out a way to resolve this "war on terror".

well rational thought dictates that anyone that disagrees with me is right wing...

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Originally posted by Chuck Norris You dickhead, that is the most pathetic racist generalisation i've seen thus far. If the Palestinians are so stupid and Israelies are so intelligent surely Israel would have figured out a way to resolve this "war on terror".

No you misunderstood me.. I meant the Palestinians have no intelligence services... (and compartively speaking to real intelligence angencies they don't) read it in context.

go back and use your showerhead

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Originally posted by tathi wow Arbiter, brilliant powers of deduction, the analogy cleared it all up for me A government goes to the gaza strip to murder some "terrorists" Collatoral damage includes 10 civilians, (a small price to pay for "justice") relatives of the civilians see this government murdering their people and say "That's bullshit" So instead of letting a powerful and oppressive government pillage and murder their people, they decide to fight back this government then retaliates more people die, so more people decide to take "justice" into their own hands etc etc and they all lived happily ever after If you find a "terrorists" mentality so predictable that you can anticipate their future moves, what will break the cycle of violence? Perhaps another completely irrational incursion into Palestine? Are you capable of rational thought arbiter? I'd hate to see someone with such a talent for creating colourful analogies to be divulged as an ignorant hypocrite. Your apothegm is completely devoid of logic, and quite irrational, therefore you must be a terrorist!! terrorism is also within the eye of the beholder, and is as aesthetic and subjective to individual bias as beauteousness one persons freedom fighter is another persons terrorist

Hey as long as gas prices are cheap enough that I can afford to drive my Hummer to the supermarket...:P

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Originally posted by tathi well rational thought dictates that anyone that disagrees with me is right wing...

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Originally posted by tathi kill all of the extremists

Hehe. Irony's a bitch.

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Originally posted by tathi blah blah blah fancy word blah blah blah Arbiter you mofo you!

You'll have to forgive him about that. He does this to all Pro-Israelis that enter this forum. He assumes that they are all like melech_mike and have no content or intelligence to them. Its just a temporary thing, no worries.


Just think of it as your tahti initation ritual

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Originally posted by Yoepus No you misunderstood me.. I meant the Palestinians have no intelligence services... (and compartively speaking to real intelligence angencies they don't) read it in context. go back and use your showerhead

Oh, maybe you could add 'services' in, you knew alot of people would mis interpret that.

Oh, leave my showerhead out of this.

Gee..you really put me in my place...way to go and hurt my feelings

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Originally posted by Chuck Norris Oh, maybe you could add 'services' in, you knew alot of people would mis interpret that. Oh, leave my showerhead out of this. (

You're right the showerhead was uncalled for... I'm sorry

Well people should know what intelligence is.. its not my fault if they enjoyed a lame pun.

First rule of Yoepus law: assume you know how your enemy thinks

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You'll have to forgive him about that. He does this to all Pro-Israelis that enter this forum. He assumes that they are all like melech_mike and have no content or intelligence to them. Its just a temporary thing, no worries.

if you substituted pro-israeli with pro-religion, you may be right. I do treat stupid posts, with condescension, i just expect that smart people like you Yoepus should not stoop to mike and djbaron's level, and i will try not to meet you down there..

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Man usually avoids attributing cleverness to somebody else - unless it is an enemy. -- Albert Einstein

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Originally posted by tathi wow Arbiter, brilliant powers of deduction, the analogy cleared it all up for me A government goes to the gaza strip to murder some "terrorists" Collatoral damage includes 10 civilians, (a small price to pay for "justice") relatives of the civilians see this government murdering their people and say "That's bullshit" So instead of letting a powerful and oppressive government pillage and murder their people, they decide to fight back this government then retaliates more people die, so more people decide to take "justice" into their own hands etc etc and they all lived happily ever after

It seems to have gone over your head. Pro-Palestinian propaganda is littered with the accounts of how bad off this cycle leaves the Palestinians. Israel, on the other hand, loses what? A fraction of the number of lives?

It's pretty obvious who is getting the better of this conflict, and it should come as no surprise: the side with far greater resources, Israel.

It follows, then, that the Palestinians have more to gain by a termination of the conflict than does Israel. But, rather than pursuing these potential gains, they choose to perpetuate the cycle of violence on the naive belief that they can emerge victorious in violent combat. Quite clearly, this mode of operation will only result in yet greater damage being done to their society, and yet the choose to pursue it. Assuming their objective is the improvement of the conditions of their people, and given that their means of accomplishing this objective in fact produces the opposite effect, there is no other conclusion possible than that whatever reasoning underlies their choices is fundamentally flawed.

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If you find a "terrorists" mentality so predictable that you can anticipate their future moves, what will break the cycle of violence?

That's easy. The cycle of violence will end if, and only if, the Palestinian people choose to have the collective maturity to accept the simple fact that the land which was once theirs quite simply does not belong to them any longer. My people did it, and so can they.

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Are you capable of rational thought arbiter? I'd hate to see someone with such a talent for creating colourful analogies to be divulged as an ignorant hypocrite. Your apothegm is completely devoid of logic, and quite irrational, therefore you must be a terrorist!!

That's quite an interesting string of ad hominem and non-sequitur fallacies. If your objective was to sabotage any credibility your point may have had, I must commend you on a masterful job of it.

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It seems to have gone over your head.

hehehe, I love a good turgid facade of engrish, if your intention was to impress me to secure some form of noblesse oblige, bad luck

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Pro-Palestinian propaganda is littered with the accounts of how bad off this cycle leaves the Palestinians. Israel, on the other hand, loses what? A fraction of the number of lives? It's pretty obvious who is getting the better of this conflict, and it should come as no surprise: the side with far greater resources, Israel. It follows, then, that the Palestinians have more to gain by a termination of the conflict than does Israel.

hahaha, the epitome of an emotional conjecture

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That's easy. The cycle of violence will end if, and only if, the Palestinian people choose to have the collective maturity to accept the simple fact that the land which was once theirs quite simply does not belong to them any longer. My people did it, and so can they.

I hope you are not referring to the Jews expulsion from Palestine in biblical times? I would think it was more a matter of coercion rather than maturity. I am well aware of Likud's intransigency, i don't expect them to make a mature decision, a peaceful resolution lies when Sharon is rotting in a Belgium prison.

quote:

But, rather than pursuing these potential gains, they choose to perpetuate the cycle of violence on the naive belief that they can emerge victorious in violent combat. Quite clearly, this mode of operation will only result in yet greater damage being done to their society, and yet the choose to pursue it.

Rather than pursuing these potential gains, the Israeli government choose to propagate the cycle of violence on the credulous belief in that they can emerge victorious through vehement combat. Quite clearly, this mode of operation will only result in a pyrrhic victory

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Assuming their objective is the improvement of the conditions of their people, and given that their means of accomplishing this objective in fact produces the opposite effect, there is no other conclusion possible than that whatever reasoning underlies their choices is fundamentally flawed.

sigh; Assuming the Israeli government's objective is �peace� and given their dogmatic belief that fighting terrorism with terrorism is a fait accompli, one has to conclude that the governments major sine qua non; state sponsored terrorism, in the name of defense, is fundamentally flawed

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That's quite an interesting string of ad hominem and non-sequitur fallacies. If your objective was to sabotage any credibility your point may have had, I must commend you on a masterful job of it.

It was quite cerebral, but i can see how you could of misconstrued it's captious premise

Well done arbiter, you can speak english. I suggest you carefully cogitate your next post, maybe then it could be harder than substituting a single word to completely reverse each scenario

I also abstain from Middle East discussions, for the most part. It's a real f$cking mess, and I think the only way things will eventually get resolved is having the UN or some other 3rd party force (if there would ever be one in the future) keep the peace and draw border lines as both countries acknowledge each other's statehood. Wishful thinking, but there's no way in hell they'll work it out on their own. And as Cheney pointed out earlier, Israel has had it's fair share of invasions, and has a right to protect itself. I think, however, Israel just has an itchy trigger finger, but perhaps I can't blame them given the history of invasion on them. Still, no peace will get accomplished in this current state of affairs.

"They call themselves the ItchyTriggerFingerNiggas"
"The who?"
"The ItchyTriggerFingerNiggas"

Anyways, for those asking if Occ is right wing, how much more conservative could you get with Dick Cheney? Come on, folks, put 2 and 2 together.

I'm not right wing!!!! Don't make me get my good friend donald to bomb your house!

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Originally posted by Echo of Silence The USA gives more money EVERY year to Israel (stop and think how little of a country Israel is) than to any other country on the globe. With that money (which they really don't need, they have their own money), Israel is able to afford the arms and military that no other nation in the Middle East can afford. So if a group of suppressed people (i.e. Palestinians) declares war on Israel (peoples do declare war on other peoples), tell me how should they fight their war?

I think i missed the answer on that one..... This is the point that all the Israelis are missing. Palestinians have nothing to live for and they are oppressed by the Israeli army, what should they do? Of course you can say that they are using unfair methods bla bla bla... But you would do exactly the same things if you where them. That's their only chance! To end this conflict US should give as much money to Palestine as they give to Israel! They should give them a life worth living, first then it should be possible to stop the suicide attacks!

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Originally posted by tathi hehehe, I love a good turgid facade of engrish, if your intention was to impress me to secure some form of noblesse oblige, bad luck

I'm glad I didn't expect a mature, well-though-out response from someone whose signature reads "Kill all of the extremists!" I would have been emotionally crushed.

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hahaha, the epitome of an emotional conjecture

What's the matter, couldn't find a premise to challenge? Anyone can respond "hahaha, the epitome of an emotional conjecture" to any argument. Hence, the rather pitiable attempt at a retort is entirely devoid of objective meaning. Congratulations, you've just said nothing.

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I hope you are not referring to the Jews expulsion from Palestine in biblical times? I would think it was more a matter of coercion rather than maturity. I am well aware of Likud's intransigency, i don't expect them to make a mature decision, a peaceful resolution lies when Sharon is rotting in a Belgium prison.

No, I'm not. I'm referring to the fact that you don't see the Souix strapping bombs to themselves and blowing themselves up in downtown LA. Sometimes, you just have to accept that history has changed. We don't make the ludicrous demand that all non-indiginous residents of the American supercontinent depart.

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Rather than pursuing these potential gains, the Israeli government choose to propagate the cycle of violence on the credulous belief in that they can emerge victorious through vehement combat. Quite clearly, this mode of operation will only result in a pyrrhic victory

Israel's hands are tied. If they do not respond to terrorism with all necessary means, then terrorism is legitimized as a means of obtaining political redress. The implications of such a course of action would be so catastrophic not only for Israel, but for the rest of the world, that to even consider it a realistic option is an act of lunacy.

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sigh; Assuming the Israeli government's objective is �peace� and given their dogmatic belief that fighting terrorism with terrorism is a fait accompli, one has to conclude that the governments major sine qua non; state sponsored terrorism, in the name of defense, is fundamentally flawed

Classifying Israeli military activities as "terrorism" is a rather pathetic attempt to garner emotional support for your cause. To define the term as such makes a rational discussion of the matters at hand impossible, because it prevents us from making important distinctions between the intent, means, and objectives of the activity. To address your specific claims that your proposed course of reasoning is somehow analagous to mine, I'm afraid it simply does not follow. Anyone who honestly believes that the appeasement of terrorists will reduce violence over a long enough timeline is suffering from a serious case of intellectual myopia.

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It was quite cerebral, but i can see how you could of misconstrued it's captious premise

No, it really wasn't. It was a very weak attempt to be clever, and it contained no insight or truth of any kind. It was, in fact, quite a waste of your and my time.

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Well done arbiter, you can speak english. I suggest you carefully cogitate your next post, maybe then it could be harder than substituting a single word to completely reverse each scenario

The substitution of words is not a reliable method for the refutation of arguments, since it fails to maintain the relationships between the pertinent terms in a discussion. Of course, I'm sure you already knew that.

oohhh this is better than a flame war

/runs out and grabs the popcorn

Yes, it's like Frasier vs. Frasier.

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Originally posted by Yoepus oohhh this is better than a flame war /runs out and grabs the popcorn

LoL i agree.

thankfully there's a dictionary.com
i'm learning guys, please continue

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Originally posted by Izzy LoL i agree. thankfully there's a dictionary.com i'm learning guys, please continue

rofl.
This is indeed great enter-(or shall i say: Info-)tainment!
Thats why I love this place

Hehe, i've seen you have put a little more thought into this post

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Arbiter I'm glad I didn't expect a mature, well-though-out response from someone whose signature reads "Kill all of the extremists!" I would have been emotionally crushed.

The signature represents irony, an arduous concept to grasp, for some

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What's the matter, couldn't find a premise to challenge? Anyone can respond "hahaha, the epitome of an emotional conjecture" to any argument. Hence, the rather pitiable attempt at a retort is entirely devoid of objective meaning. Congratulations, you've just said nothing.

There was nothing to reply to, it was a speculative hypothesis, encapsulated in bias. I've seen conspiracy theories with more credibility.

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Israel's hands are tied. If they do not respond to terrorism with all necessary means, then terrorism is legitimized as a means of obtaining political redress.

And what is an acceptable response? An IDF terrorist attack on Palestinian civilians perhaps? You certainly believe IDF state-sponsored terrorism is legitimate.

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Classifying Israeli military activities as "terrorism" is a rather pathetic attempt to garner emotional support for your cause.

Arbiter, i sincerely wish it was some pathetic attempt, sadly it isn't. How many lives have been lost at the hands of IDF terrorism?

I think you need a lesson on the semantics of �Terrorism�, the 4th post down entitled "A Lesson In English"
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...ng&pagenumber=9

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To define the term as such makes a rational discussion of the matters at hand impossible, because it prevents us from making important distinctions between the intent, means, and objectives of the activity.

Impossible? Improbable to some maybe, for those who have an equipoise view in regards to the concept �terrorism� the definition it is quite overt.

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If they do not respond to terrorism with all necessary means, then terrorism is legitimized as a means of obtaining political redress. The implications of such a course of action would be so catastrophic not only for Israel, but for the rest of the world, that to even consider it a realistic option is an act of lunacy.

Great, in your own words you have just conveyed to the class the �intent� and �objectives� of Israeli state sponsored terrorism, not so impossible, is it? Now what would the �means� be? Collective Punishment? Willful killing of Civilians? �Targeted Detergence�?

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To address your specific claims that your proposed course of reasoning is somehow analagous to mine, I'm afraid it simply does not follow.

No, You're afraid that it is analogous, denial is a self defense mechanism against the epiphanic realisation that you are wrong

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George Orwell The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

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Anyone who honestly believes that the appeasement of terrorists will reduce violence over a long enough timeline is suffering from a serious case of intellectual myopia.

In a certain context you are right, I'm sure you have heard of the saying �It all began with Begin� and I'm sure you are aware that the etymology of contemporary terrorism derives from jewish terrorist attacks in the Brittish Mandate of Palestine. As we travel down the timeline, Likud holds the benchmark and is a predictable bellwether for future violence.

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The substitution of words is not a reliable method for the refutation of arguments, since it fails to maintain the relationships between the pertinent terms in a discussion. Of course, I'm sure you already knew that.

Your cognitive disposition on the pertinence of the scenario is subjectively skewed towards your acculturative proselytization. The way you refute the irrefragable is merely an indoctrinated and intransigent idiosyncrasy, before rational higher brain functions like logic and reason come into the equation your subconcious mind has dictated that any criticism of the Israeli government is heresy.

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Gilbert Keith Chesterton You can only find truth with logic if you have already found truth without it.

this argument is pointless

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