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Maybe Bush just needs a better hair stylist.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/gbhair1.html

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Originally posted by occrider The battle of Moscow was the week before.

what is your point?? read above, I said it was the week before.

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[The entry of the US into the war against Germany was merely cause and effect.

that has nothing to do with the fact that Hitler declared war on the US for no reason, and then proceeded to take major planning over from much greater military minds (Generals that studied these things, unlike him)

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Hitler assuming command of the Eastern Front was a week afterwards.

um again, what's your point?? You're just repeating what I said in my previous post.

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I find your feeble attempts at mockery to be amusing

great! so what are your arguments again?? you havent made any to disprove anything I said.

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik what is your point?? read above, I said it was the week before. that has nothing to do with the fact that Hitler declared war on the US for no reason, and then proceeded to take major planning over from much greater military minds (Generals that studied these things, unlike him) um again, what's your point?? You're just repeating what I said in my previous post. great! so what are your arguments again?? you havent made any to disprove anything I said.

Sigh, ok I'll play this tedious game with you. You originally said:

quote:

on a sidenote, it's interesting how much things turned around the week Germany declared war on the US, almost spooky really.

To which I replied:

"What? The battle of Moscow? Technically the week before ... but it was merely one decisive battle out of many on the eastern front. Nothing spooky that I can tell. "

In which you replied:

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I thought you said you studied this war??

Now then, what spooky things were you referring to the week that germany declared war on the US? What grandeoise turning points occured in that week?

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik that has nothing to do with the fact that Hitler declared war on the US for no reason, and then proceeded to take major planning over from much greater military minds (Generals that studied these things, unlike him)

Yeah, right, no reason at all. And what about the huge supply aid that came from the americas? Without it, the brits would have lost the war.

Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by Trancer-X ... Under the current circumstances, that's definitely better than having more than half of them being ignoramuses. Given the great advances in communication since WWII, (notably the internet) the general public seems much more knowledgable and abreast of the facts than it's predecessors. In other words, it's much harder to pull the wool over their eyes.

I guess it's about a year ago, that a study indicated that over half the british population didn't know they were members of the EU. The same study indicated that 1-in-9 thought the United States was part of the EU.
Therefore, (although I agree that most of Bush's policies are bad, and that he is stupid beyond belief) I do not think that the reason 60% of Brits are opposed to Bush is due to any special lack of ignorance on their part. It must simply be Bush's charms which we europeans connect with.

Whatever the viewpoint people may have of G.W.Bush the bottom line is that America is a democracy and Bush will not be in power forever. So while the Europeans may be reviled by the policies of this current administration, too often it becomes a complete bashing of America. I am amused when I hear someone in Europe preach to Americans of how ignorant many Americans are, as though Europe was blessed with an endless supply of scholars. The U.S.A has always been at the side of Europe through good and bad, but the attitudes of many in Europe today are borderline blissed ignorance, it doesn't matter what is stated today by the U.S. as long as Europe can find a way to oppose it they will. So while the Eurocrats conduct their endless polls in which they ask what threatens world security and excludes the Palestinian nation because it is not a state, they include the E.U. (is that a state might I ask). I understand the frustrations with the Bush administration but a time will come when that Jackass will be out of power, the question is will Europe be any less anti-American, I do know one thing, a day will come when it shall be remembered that as Italy, Great Britain, Australia, helped the U.S in Iraq. The non-existence of France, Russia and Germany will be recalled, these nations are not required to send troops under any condition but economically they could have stepped up to the plate, to help rebuild Iraq. After all they truly care about the Iraqis right (how about forgiving the foreign debt accumulated under a tyrannical despot for starters). History is a funny thing, it can come back to bite you in the ass, ask America in its relations with these European nations.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Yeah, right, no reason at all. And what about the huge supply aid that came from the americas? Without it, the brits would have lost the war.

Just to add to your argument ...

As recalled by Ribbentrop, Germany's foreign minister:

"I told him (Hitler) that according to the stipulation of the Three-Power pact, since Japan had attacked, we would not have to declare war, formally. The Fuehrer thought this matter over quite a while and then he gave me a very clear decision, 'If we do not stand on the side of Japan,' he said, 'the Pact is politically dead. But that is not the main reason. The chief reason is that the United States already is shooting against our ships. They have been a forceful factor in this war and through their actions have already created a situation of war.' The Fuehrer was of the opinion at that moment that it was quite evident that the United States would now make war against Germany."


He was referring to Roosevelt's shoot on sight order against German warships in American waters on Sept. 11, 1941 after a German U-Boat had attempted to torpedo an American ship. There had been escalating naval clashes between the two sides since early 1941, and Doenitz was pushing Hitler to unleash unrestricted submarine warfare on the Americans. By that point, their ships were escorting British shipping up until the Atlantic midpoint.

With all the material resources already flowing to Britain and Russia, Hitler concluded that this was sooner or later going to devolve into a shooting war, and preferred he choose the time and place ... which is the main reason why he declared war after Pearl Harbor.

Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan Whilst the war was on I was in London, and I walked past this girl with a banner shouting stuff, the war was on and British soldiers were getting killed so I said to her lose that fucking banner or I'll shove it up your fucking arse. That might sound harsh but whilst a wars on whether you agree or disagree you have to support the troops and think of the people who have lost their lives. And your last line that post, your refering to WW2 right? And your saying the Americans gave British people their freedom? If your saying what I think you are I suggest you stop speaking out of your fucking arse lad, the British fought for their OWN freedom! British Freedom was won in the Battle of Britain which was the start of a massive Blitzkreig, but it went tits up in the first phase contolling British airspace (The Battle of Britain) and after a serious defeat the Germans decided not to try and invade the UK. But I'm not saying America didn't help the UK they shipped over vital supplies etc, to keep the country running. I think anyone who wants to slag Britain off or the efforts in WW2 should shut the fuck up, realise this shitty little Island held out, whilst all the lands around it were occupied by the Nazis. I might of read what you said wrongly, however do you think it was only America who won WW2? Do you think of people from other countries who gave their lives so you can be free? See when people talk about WW2 it really pisses me off and I can take things the wrong way sometimes, but its because my grandad won lots of medals including the Miltary Medal, King Georges Cross (or whatever its called) and wasted 6 years of his life fighting for not only his freedom but everyone elses.

I totally agree with you on this post.

How can people say that Britain would have lost the war had it not have been for America, i aint saying that they didn't contribute, because they definately did, and i will always forever be grateful, but we british have something that allot of europeans or any other people dont understand, and that is the never say die attitude. I am proud to be British, and when the whole of Europe was in termoil, we stood strong. We won two wars against considerable odds. Also don't forget that if by chance Germany did invade England, then America would be next, and with America alone, and Germany + Japan together, i think we would have been living in a very different world to what we do today!

Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by TiestoFanMatt Also don't forget that if by chance Germany did invade England, then America would be next, and with America alone, and Germany + Japan together, i think we would have been living in a very different world to what we do today!

um I don't think so...

I think a nuke falling on Berlin would have discouraged Hitler from pursuing an offensive against the US.

Also, there is nothing to back up your theory about Britain winning the Western front by itself. If anything, the reds might have won it from the east, and in turn, saved Britain. No offence, but the UK was pretty much fucked.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Now then, what spooky things were you referring to the week that germany declared war on the US? What grandeoise turning points occured in that week?

Pearl Harbor, Hitler taking command, and the end of the battle of Moscow (a huuuuuge win), all occured WITHIN a week of the declaration. Again, there are a few other lesser known things that occurred, but since you claim you have "studied" this war, I figured I would give you a chance to enlighten us. sooo?? Still NOTHING??? I thought so. I'll give you another day or two mister knowitall.

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Whatever the viewpoint people may have of G.W.Bush the bottom line is that America is a democracy and Bush will not be in power forever. So while the Europeans may be reviled by the policies of this current administration, too often it becomes a complete bashing of America. I am amused when I hear someone in Europe preach to Americans of how ignorant many Americans are, as though Europe was blessed with an endless supply of scholars. The U.S.A has always been at the side of Europe through good and bad, but the attitudes of many in Europe today are borderline blissed ignorance, it doesn't matter what is stated today by the U.S. as long as Europe can find a way to oppose it they will. So while the Eurocrats conduct their endless polls in which they ask what threatens world security and excludes the Palestinian nation because it is not a state, they include the E.U. (is that a state might I ask). I understand the frustrations with the Bush administration but a time will come when that Jackass will be out of power, the question is will Europe be any less anti-American, I do know one thing, a day will come when it shall be remembered that as Italy, Great Britain, Australia, helped the U.S in Iraq. The non-existence of France, Russia and Germany will be recalled, these nations are not required to send troops under any condition but economically they could have stepped up to the plate, to help rebuild Iraq. After all they truly care about the Iraqis right (how about forgiving the foreign debt accumulated under a tyrannical despot for starters).

No I don't believe for a second that most of the politicans in France and Germany give a damn about the Iraqi people, but Iraq 2 is a political war and everyone took their stance on the war based mostly on their own economic, and in the case of Schroder, political interests. It also amuses me as well when Europeans accuse Americans of being "biased" (see "biased" thread hehe) when they are susceptible to the same types of bias found in their own media sources and governments. There's no such thing as a media source without bias. It just doesn't exist!!!!

All that being said, I'm hoping the Brits show Bush some of their famous hospitality, if you get my drift.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik um I don't think so... I think a nuke falling on Berlin would have discouraged Hitler from pursuing an offensive against the US. Also, there is nothing to back up your theory about Britain winning the Western front by itself. If anything, the reds might have won it from the east, and in turn, saved Britain. No offence, but the UK was pretty much fucked.

You really have no evidence of what would have happened. A nuke...yes, maybe.

The uk was fucked through most of the war but we were always there still standing strong. Look what happened to Russia, they were pretty much fucked, but they marched right through to Berlin !

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik Pearl Harbor, Hitler taking command, and the end of the battle of Moscow (a huuuuuge win), all occured WITHIN a week of the declaration. Again, there are a few other lesser known things that occurred, but since you claim you have "studied" this war, I figured I would give you a chance to enlighten us. sooo?? Still NOTHING??? I thought so. I'll give you another day or two mister knowitall.

OMG ... Ok, I'll spell things out for you as explicitly as I can.

Date of German declaration of war: December 11th.
Your week of "spooky" things: December 7th-13th.
German offensive against battle of Moscow grinding to a halt: December 5th.
Hitler assuming command of the Wehrmacht and ordering "no withdrawal": December 19th.

Therefore I was prompted to say: "what spooky things? The battle of Moscow? Technically that was the week before, etc., etc., etc."

After which, for some particular reason, you chose to utilize ad hominem attacks as your means to discredit me (who said I knew everything about it? Go back and read, I said that I studied ww2 the most compared to any other war I've studied).

Furthermore, the bombing of Pearl Harbor and Hitler's assumption of command of the wehrmacht are not defined as critical "turning points" because nothing has actually happened to the German army to render a strategic or tactical defeat. Therefore if goofy assumes command of the German Army it isn't a critical turning point, it's what goofy DOES with the army (most likely a decisive battle) that is a critical turning point. For example, the american war of independance which set the stage for the creation of America and its eventual economic might to challenge Japan is not a critical turning poin in the battle against the Japanese, the battle of Midway is.

Lastly, after Hitler's assumption of command, he did what most other generals would likely do. He gave up the static situation of army group center and consolidated resources with army group south to take the rich oil fields of the Caucusses. Oil fields that increasingly became a vital necessity to the german war machinery especially since the Americans were bombing the Romanian oil fields.

Cheers,

Mr. Know-it-all Cheney

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by occrider OMG ... Ok, I'll spell things out for you as explicitly as I can. Date of German declaration of war: December 11th. Your week of "spooky" things: December 7th-13th. German offensive against battle of Moscow grinding to a halt: December 5th. Hitler assuming command of the Wehrmacht and ordering "no withdrawal": December 19th. Therefore I was prompted to say: "what spooky things? The battle of Moscow? Technically that was the week before, etc., etc., etc." After which, for some particular reason, you chose to utilize ad hominem attacks as your means to discredit me (who said I knew everything about it? Go back and read, I said that I studied ww2 the most compared to any other war I've studied). Furthermore, the bombing of Pearl Harbor and Hitler's assumption of command of the wehrmacht are not defined as critical "turning points" because nothing has actually happened to the German army to render a strategic or tactical defeat. Therefore if goofy assumes command of the German Army it isn't a critical turning point, it's what goofy DOES with the army (most likely a decisive battle) that is a critical turning point. For example, the american war of independance which set the stage for the creation of America and its eventual economic might to challenge Japan is not a critical turning poin in the battle against the Japanese, the battle of Midway is. Lastly, after Hitler's assumption of command, he did what most other generals would likely do. He gave up the static situation of army group center and consolidated resources with army group south to take the rich oil fields of the Caucusses. Oil fields that increasingly became a vital necessity to the german war machinery especially since the Americans were bombing the Romanian oil fields.

mjuuou;p]\j;jak just got owned!



sorry had to do it!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by biodigit mjuuou;p]\j;jak just got owned! sorry had to do it!

interesting, a "junior tranceaddict" from the same city as occipad

hmmmm

is this occipad's discrminatory side?? happy to see that ppl who suffer throughout their whole lives are made fun of in the POLITICAL forum

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by occrider OMG ... Ok, I'll spell things out for you as explicitly as I can. Date of German declaration of war: December 11th. Your week of "spooky" things: December 7th-13th. German offensive against battle of Moscow grinding to a halt: December 5th. Hitler assuming command of the Wehrmacht and ordering "no withdrawal": December 19th. Therefore I was prompted to say: "what spooky things? The battle of Moscow? Technically that was the week before, etc., etc., etc." After which, for some particular reason, you chose to utilize ad hominem attacks as your means to discredit me (who said I knew everything about it? Go back and read, I said that I studied ww2 the most compared to any other war I've studied). Furthermore, the bombing of Pearl Harbor and Hitler's assumption of command of the wehrmacht are not defined as critical "turning points" because nothing has actually happened to the German army to render a strategic or tactical defeat. Therefore if goofy assumes command of the German Army it isn't a critical turning point, it's what goofy DOES with the army (most likely a decisive battle) that is a critical turning point. For example, the american war of independance which set the stage for the creation of America and its eventual economic might to challenge Japan is not a critical turning poin in the battle against the Japanese, the battle of Midway is. Lastly, after Hitler's assumption of command, he did what most other generals would likely do. He gave up the static situation of army group center and consolidated resources with army group south to take the rich oil fields of the Caucusses. Oil fields that increasingly became a vital necessity to the german war machinery especially since the Americans were bombing the Romanian oil fields. Cheers, Mr. Know-it-all Cheney

you should quote sources when you say things like "considered" or "defined"

aside from that, all you saying is that my original statement was false because I saw week of instead of within a week. very mature. nitpick all u want, all you can say to discredit my statement is that my wording was wrong. youre an idiot who thinks hes smart and thats the worst kind.

YOU STILL DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE HAPPENED THAT WEEK SMART ASS????

DO YOU NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU"RE STUPID OR UNEDUCATED??

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik you should quote sources when you say things like "considered" or "defined" aside from that, all you saying is that my original statement was false because I saw week of instead of within a week. very mature. nitpick all u want, all you can say to discredit my statement is that my wording was wrong. youre an idiot who thinks hes smart and thats the worst kind. YOU STILL DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE HAPPENED THAT WEEK SMART ASS???? DO YOU NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU"RE STUPID OR UNEDUCATED??

You look down on people who make fun of mentally challenged kids, yet you act like one when you call people names as you "try" to pathetically argue you point.


Occrider, dont waste your time with this sad seed. When it cant argue no longer, it chooses to call names.

who gives a shit, we know hes a nob cheddar and hes a shit leader, but why people have to go on about him i don't know

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik um I don't think so... I think a nuke falling on Berlin would have discouraged Hitler from pursuing an offensive against the US.

And how would american bombers reach Berlin if Britain fell?

quote:

Also, there is nothing to back up your theory about Britain winning the Western front by itself. If anything, the reds might have won it from the east, and in turn, saved Britain. No offence, but the UK was pretty much fucked.

No, not by itself, but with great US support.

quote:

YOU STILL DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE HAPPENED THAT WEEK SMART ASS????

Feel free to enlighten us.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik you should quote sources when you say things like "considered" or "defined" aside from that, all you saying is that my original statement was false because I saw week of instead of within a week. very mature. nitpick all u want, all you can say to discredit my statement is that my wording was wrong. youre an idiot who thinks hes smart and thats the worst kind. YOU STILL DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE HAPPENED THAT WEEK SMART ASS???? DO YOU NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU"RE STUPID OR UNEDUCATED??

1) You accuse Occrider of "nitpicking" when it was your sarcastic retort (prefaced with "I thought you said you studied this war??") that began this heated discussion in the first place.

2) You, of all people, have no right to call Occrider "uneducated" or a "smart ass". Just admit the fact that you lost the argument, that Occrider knows his history a lot better than you (despite the aspersions you cast upon his role as a "TA historian") and move on.

3) If you don't want to discuss things sensibly or "nitpick" about dates, then this isn't the place for you. Once again, move on.

yeah bush is coming he can fuck of back to the USA aswell the american prick

Hehe, seems that occrider enjoys plebiscitary support in this matter.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

quote:

Originally posted by 'mju:zik um I don't think so... I think a nuke falling on Berlin would have discouraged Hitler from pursuing an offensive against the US. Also, there is nothing to back up your theory about Britain winning the Western front by itself. If anything, the reds might have won it from the east, and in turn, saved Britain. No offence, but the UK was pretty much fucked. Pearl Harbor, Hitler taking command, and the end of the battle of Moscow (a huuuuuge win), all occured WITHIN a week of the declaration. Again, there are a few other lesser known things that occurred, but since you claim you have "studied" this war, I figured I would give you a chance to enlighten us. sooo?? Still NOTHING??? I thought so. I'll give you another day or two mister knowitall.

A nuke falling on Berlin? heh Did you know it was the SAS who stopped the Nazis from making the first A bomb? in Norway SAS assualts on various facilties which were manufacturing and researching A bomb technology stopped the Nazi atomic weapon programmes.

Yes Britain wouldn't of won the Western front alone but neither would America on their own aswell, but it this way it was a JOINT effort. Aswell if the Nazis decided not to invade Russia we would be speaking German right now, as their attempted invasion of Russia was what lost them the war.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

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Originally posted by 'mju:zik interesting, a "junior tranceaddict" from the same city as occipad hmmmm is this occipad's discrminatory side?? happy to see that ppl who suffer throughout their whole lives are made fun of in the POLITICAL forum

hahaha you're thinking I am the 'Evil' side of Occ and logging on with a different nick so i can make fun of retarted people? Thats the funniest shit I have ever heard, probably wouldnt even find in the 'Chill Out' forum.

lets make that clear....I am NOT Occrider. 2nd, if you try using this very helpful functionality this forum provides...called 'Search Button' you would find there have been times that i've been in discussions with Occrider and at times they were very heated ones.

Lastly, i wasnt making fun of retards. You might find this surprising and shocking that...I was making fun of YOU! Pure and simple...Occ made you looke like a RETARD. You kept arguing just for the sake of arguing and that again....makes YOU sound like a retard.

so, in conclusion. Sooner or later you will get OWNED.....and I guess your time was due for such a life altering experience.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bush's UK State Visit

quote:

Originally posted by 'mju:zik you should quote sources when you say things like "considered" or "defined" aside from that, all you saying is that my original statement was false because I saw week of instead of within a week. very mature. nitpick all u want, all you can say to discredit my statement is that my wording was wrong. youre an idiot who thinks hes smart and thats the worst kind. YOU STILL DONT KNOW WHAT ELSE HAPPENED THAT WEEK SMART ASS???? DO YOU NOT KNOW BECAUSE YOU"RE STUPID OR UNEDUCATED??

When all else fails when losing an argument and getting owned, attempt to win through insults which are definetely not well thought out since OccRider happens to be one of the most tactful debaters on this forum and can back up all of his arguments at all points and times!

now back to main topic......


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_n...1086397,00.html

quote:

The issue of immunity is one of a series of extraordinary US demands turned down by Ministers and Downing Street during preparations for the Bush visit. These included the closure of the Tube network, the use of US air force planes and helicopters and the shipping in of battlefield weaponry to use against rioters.

yikes I thought the Brits were supposed to be our best friends.

On a side note: Wonder if the news networks will give as much attention to the toppling the giant Bush effigy from Trafalgar Sq. as they did to the Saddam statue in April?

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