TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- DJ Booth
-- Guide to Harmonic Mixing 1.0
Pages (4): « 1 [2] 3 4 »

Minor Scale Chart
____1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th
C : C__D__D#_F__G__G#_A#
C#: C#_D#_E__F#_G#_A__B
D : D__E__F__G__A__A#_C
D#: D#_F__F#_G#_A#_B__C#
E : E__F#_G__A__B__C__D
F : F__G__G#_A#_C__C#_D#
F#: F#_G#_A__B__C#_D__E
G : G__A__A#_C__D__D#_F
G#: G#_A#_B__C#_D#_E__F#
A : A__B__C__D__E__F__G
A#: A#_C__C#_D#_F__F#_G#
B : B__C#_D__E__F#_G__A


ok so i just wanna make sure i read all this right....brit lit fried my brain earlier....


so anyways...if i have a choon that is in C I could effectivly harmonicly mix a track that is either F or G into it??

thanx in advance...

quote:

so anyways...if i have a choon that is in C I could effectivly harmonicly mix a track that is either F or G into it??

Yup, F is it's Sub Dominant and G is the Dominant. I personally prefer to use the mix into the sub dominant out of the two as you get a nice little lift out of that mix.

Cheers
Nem

ahh perfect......last question though

how accurate is the bpm in mixmeister?? i was thinking since im keying all my music i might as well lable everything with key and bpm....

is that a bad idea or no???

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Yup, F is it's Sub Dominant and G is the Dominant. I personally prefer to use the mix into the sub dominant out of the two as you get a nice little lift out of that mix.

other way around

Nope... I think you will find that F 'is' the sub dominant (5 steps on the chromatic scale) and G is the Dominant (7 steps on the chromatic scale). If that's what you were refering to?

Also, the lift you get out of a mix seems better the closer you are to the root.
The most effective energetic lift you can use is not even a blend of harmonies but a straight bass swap going from a C to a C#. They would sound rank if you blended them though.

Cheers
Nem

After spending a few hours playing in harmony, i've reached some conclusions:

-Mixmeister is correct about 80% of the time (4 out of 5 tracks)

-Mixing in perfect fifth or perfect fourth sounds much nicer than mixing in the same key; however, the bass swap sounds nicer in the same key

-To mix in the same key, you have to got perfect pitch; to mix in perfect fifth and perfect fourth (dominant and sub dominant) you may get away with a tiny pitch difference.

-Mixing range is usually up to 3 bpm; mixing with more than this doesn't sound very nice

-D minor and C minor seem to be the most common keys; F# and G# the most uncommon

-A minor is usually associated in very "happy" tracks; these tracks spread a lot of energy and happiness

-E minor is usually associated with banging tracks; these tracks hit harder than the rest

-D#, F and F# (minors) are usually associated with sad tracks

-African rythms are usually in C or D (minors).

-Two tracks may combine (by perfect fifth or perfect forth) but the track's "feeling" (kind of energy they spread) may be very different; however two tracks with the same key spread the same kind of energy


These conclusions apply mostly to house, as i spin few trance. But i think some of the concepts are common to all styles... Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Hey Borron,

Some interesting stuff you have there. But I might find that I disagree with some of it.

quote:

-Mixing in perfect fifth or perfect fourth sounds much nicer than mixing in the same key; however, the bass swap sounds nicer in the same key

Not always true, comes down to the tracks that you put together and what you do with them more often than not, and not the keys you mix.

quote:

-To mix in the same key, you have to got perfect pitch; to mix in perfect fifth and perfect fourth (dominant and sub dominant) you may get away with a tiny pitch difference.

Hmmm... not sure about this. I think it depends more on the types of sounds in the track really. Also some producers like to make tracks that are out of key with themselves sometimes so hard to say.

quote:

D minor and C minor seem to be the most common keys; F# and G# the most uncommon

Yup, C especially seems to be the most common key for music that uses our system. Most music theory begins with C scales and so on. Apparently it's also the easiest note for the human voice to hit (So I have heard).

quote:

-A minor is usually associated in very "happy" tracks; these tracks spread a lot of energy and happiness

Depends more on the scales used in a track really. Also most minor keys sound a little sad where as it's the major ones that sound happier. (Sometimes too happy.....)

quote:

-E minor is usually associated with banging tracks; these tracks hit harder than the rest

Yes... strange this one but I have a theory on it. I know that you get a load of rock/metal folks making dance music these days (all the techno and Hard Trance producers I know are ex thrash metal monsters) and most have probably picked up a guitar at some point. Most are also untrained (Such as myself until I started reading up on it) and therefore see the E as a more natural base for a track than the C.

quote:

-Two tracks may combine (by perfect fifth or perfect forth) but the track's "feeling" (kind of energy they spread) may be very different; however two tracks with the same key spread the same kind of energy

Yup the energy you get when you change key will usually also change the feel. I find that if you mix into a Dominant (Fith I beleive) you will actually get a slight drop in the energy (Hence I rarely do it) but the Sub Dominant (Fourth) will give a great lift. As I said earlier, the closer you are to the root the better the lift. But also as you say, the energy will remain constant if you mixed it's Tonic depending a little on the track you mixed of course but you are leaving yourself to the mercy of the music in that case.


Something that I have discovered over the years is that DJs also tend to choose their music according to key sometimes. I think it's a subconcious thing as we are more naturally drawn to some keys more than others. I have a lot of music that's in Cm, Am, Dm and Em.

It shows that you are definately paying attention to what you are doing though which I think will pay off for you and will ultimately make you a better DJ.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Nope... I think you will find that F 'is' the sub dominant (5 steps on the chromatic scale) and G is the Dominant (7 steps on the chromatic scale). If that's what you were refering to?

sorry, I wasn't particulalrly clear. What I meant is that you implied that by mixing from C minor into F minor you'd be giving the mix a lift in energy, where as by mixing into G minor you wouldn't. It's the other way round

quote:

Originally posted by magicsushi sorry, I wasn't particulalrly clear. What I meant is that you implied that by mixing from C minor into F minor you'd be giving the mix a lift in energy, where as by mixing into G minor you wouldn't. It's the other way round

Hey there Magicsushi,
After reading your post I thought I had to try it with different records and actually I found that it varies. Sometimes it's the 4th and sometimes the 5th that gives the lift. In conclusion I think that it seems to be more dependant on the track, and obviously I have been choosing them in a way that favours the way I described.

I also found tracks that work the way you described and the only thing that I can separate the two of them is sounds on top of bass lines. Found tracks that didn't lift or drop and actually sounded nice but didnt' give any particullar effect. Couldn't tell you why but that's what I found.

I suppose it may depend on which octave the loudest root sound is in? A change from C5 to G5 will lift where as a change from C5 to F4 would not and visa versa if you get what I mean. Just a theory.

I suppose the best thing is to go with what works as we all know (or should) our own records.

Cheers
Nem

Im sorry...now Im confused again. Whats this chroatic scale stuff and subdominant talk?

Thanks for the support Nem.
But i'm stil pretty much in the dark, i keep making mistakes.


I have many tracks which i can't classify. Take a look at this case:

I have a small very calm and relaxed track with a saxophone behind. It is quite difficult to find the correct key. Mixmeister gave me G minor, and i did a few mixes and it went ok. But a musician friend of mine came here and told me it was D. So i tried mixing with A to take away the doubts. It went well. And when i pass it through rapid evolution, it says it is an A minor. This happens to me all the time! I guess the best way to make sure is to find out by mixing, right? But the problem is that this track sounds nice when mixing with A, D, G and C! It does sound a little nicer with A than with C, so i'm making it a D.


Also another thing: let's imagine i have a track in A major. Can i treat it as an A minor, or i have to treat it as F# minor (the relative minor)?

*coughcough...* No one picked up on some really glaring errors in this now that I look back on it...er...I'll fix it tonight.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Nuclear *coughcough...* No one picked up on some really glaring errors in this now that I look back on it...er...I'll fix it tonight.

Well... either we are too polite to mention it... or we are just a bunch of crazed illiterates who wouldn't notice even if they jumped up and bit us in the arse.

Also given the quality of the majority of posts on this forum, anything with a vague resemblance of structure is often welcomed with open arms.

Juzz zo jooooo is undazdandin' meh!

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by borron Thanks for the support Nem. But i'm stil pretty much in the dark, i keep making mistakes. I have many tracks which i can't classify. Take a look at this case: I have a small very calm and relaxed track with a saxophone behind. It is quite difficult to find the correct key. Mixmeister gave me G minor, and i did a few mixes and it went ok. But a musician friend of mine came here and told me it was D. So i tried mixing with A to take away the doubts. It went well. And when i pass it through rapid evolution, it says it is an A minor. This happens to me all the time! I guess the best way to make sure is to find out by mixing, right? But the problem is that this track sounds nice when mixing with A, D, G and C! It does sound a little nicer with A than with C, so i'm making it a D.

Hey there Borron,

I would be inclined to go with what your musican friend says (assuming that he has been playing for long enough to tell, which I am sure he has). The human method is often the best way as I have found that people who use the automated ways often come across errors. Not saying the human method is flawless but still more accurate than using applications.

quote:

Also another thing: let's imagine i have a track in A major. Can i treat it as an A minor, or i have to treat it as F# minor (the relative minor)?

It's better treating it for what it really is but you can get away with treating it as a minor. It depends largely on the structure of the song that's being played out and the one you are bringing in. If you are bringing in a track that at that point has just got bassline then it shouldn't matter assuming that the bassline is the root note.

An A major would also work with D and E in theory.

_____________________________________________________________________

On a more general note to someone who is not sure if it's for them.

The thing to remember is this.
A lot of DJs will disrespect harmonic mixing as they think it's DJing by numbers. They will often say that they will pick a track because it feels right. Which is fair enough as there are a handfull of them that actually harmonically mix without knowing that's what they are doing. The vast majority don't however.
Once you start learning more about it, your feelings and choices will just be more educated hence you have nothing to loose by learning this.
Before I discovered harmonic mixing in terms of the theory, I used to spend a lot of time finding records that sounded good together, that just seemed to flow for some reason.
Then I read an interview with Oakenfold who happened to mention this and I was imeadiately intrigued. I looked into it further only to discover that it was what I was doing all along. The diffrerence was that with musical knowledge I could do it everytime I mixed without having to see if a record was compatible or not.
Then also taking it to the next level through energy changes and so on. There are very few DJs who can instinctively mess around with energy levels and get it right without knowing some theory.

I have had practice at doing this and at this point I can actually tell you in most cases what key a track is in without the help of a musical instrument, or at the very least what other tracks would work with it. This will come in time if you practice I promise. The more you do it the more familiar you are with how it should sound.

It's like beat matching, if you do it often enough you will in time actually hear what the pitch should be set at before you even compare the two tracks together just by the feel of the flow. (Admittedly not a 100% match but in the right area).

It's all about practice my friends. I still do it after all my years as a DJ.

Sorry for the ramble... just felt like it.

Cheers
Nem

updates in 1.01
-fixed and added a few definitions
-added some samples; only one sample mix up right now, I'll add some more soon
-added some samples of the music theory stuff
-added more detailed method to key by ear
-added information on the dominant/subdominant mix problems

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Nuclear updates in 1.01 -fixed and added a few definitions -added some samples; only one sample mix up right now, I'll add some more soon -added some samples of the music theory stuff -added more detailed method to key by ear -added information on the dominant/subdominant mix problems

The lady is a superstar.

Nem

I keep hearing that "don't mix by numbers, mix by feeling" shit from local dj's and friends. The thing is that i choose my record solely based on the feeling, and THEN check if it's harmonically compatible. If it's not, then i chose another and check again. And so on. I guess it's the right thing do to! And i happen to be harmonic most of the time by feeling

About the key preference, i only got 50 records or so, but 20% of the tracks are in Am! I also got a lot in Cm, Dm, D#m and Em.

quote:

Originally posted by borron I keep hearing that "don't mix by numbers, mix by feeling" shit from local dj's and friends. The thing is that i choose my record solely based on the feeling, and THEN check if it's harmonically compatible. If it's not, then i chose another and check again. And so on. I guess it's the right thing do to! And i happen to be harmonic most of the time by feeling About the key preference, i only got 50 records or so, but 20% of the tracks are in Am! I also got a lot in Cm, Dm, D#m and Em.

Absolutely,

Also as you say it's in key most of the time anyways. Usually a record feels right because it is in the right key. Besides don't worry about what the others say. If they don't do it fine... you would just be different to them which is actually a plus for you as it will make you stand out.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by borron I keep hearing that "don't mix by numbers, mix by feeling" shit from local dj's and friends. The thing is that i choose my record solely based on the feeling, and THEN check if it's harmonically compatible. If it's not, then i chose another and check again. And so on. I guess it's the right thing do to! And i happen to be harmonic most of the time by feeling About the key preference, i only got 50 records or so, but 20% of the tracks are in Am! I also got a lot in Cm, Dm, D#m and Em.

heh, that a lot is written in C, D, A and E is not surprising. C minor is what people tend to learn first when learning the minor scale, A minor is all white keys, and D and E minor are mostly all white keys as well (E is also used in a whole lot of tracks that involve guitars because guitars are tuned by default to an a major chord that can be easily modulated to minor).

I have a psy from one artist with 6/9 tracks in a minor.

quote:

-A minor is usually associated in very "happy" tracks; these tracks spread a lot of energy and happiness

Usually they sound the same as any other minor track (unless there are accidentals in it). I could give some sad tracks in minor offhand: portishead - roads, radiohead - street spirit...

Some producers have very little formal music education and just kinda make music based on what sounds good, so you may get some songs with very loose scale-based stucture.

in the manual it says you can use mixmeister to find out which key a song is in.
i have cool edit pro 2, is this as good as mixmeister at working out the key?

Ok i have one more question.

Let's imagine i'm playing a track in B minor at a pitch speed of +2.2%.
Can i mix it with a track in E minor at -2%?

I didn't quite get that part of the pitch differences, so what counts is how much a single track is away from the 0 pitch (2% and 2.2 are both below the 3% threshold), or if it is the pitch difference which cannot be more than 3% (in this case, 2.2 + 2 = 4.2%, above the 3% threshold)?

And can you tell me if the answer to the above applies when mixing between the same key (B->B) or just to different keys (B->E and B->F#)?

Please enlighten me on this (i hope you understand what i mean, english is not my native language and sometimes it's hard for me to express myself).

Bloody interesting question and one I don't have an answer for to be honest. Never really thought about it.

I will check it out and get back to you if no one answers you before that.

Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Bloody interesting question and one I don't have an answer for to be honest. Never really thought about it. I will check it out and get back to you if no one answers you before that. Nem

The pitch is shifted linearly....I had actually thought of this problem before but hadn't solved it yet. When the pitch is adjusted between tracks with percents, the cents also change equally.

Now I will take care of it, though.

Let's take A at 440 hz. Now, a pitch shift of 2% up leaves A roughly 33 cents up, at ~448.5 hertz or so. Now look at A one octave up at 880 hz. +2% pitch change yields +33 cents, so ~897 hz.
So, a song in the same key pitched up 2% will mix perfectly with a song in the same key pitched up 2%. Additionally, songs which would mix well at 0 would mix fine if they're both at 4%, etc.

To further prove this, let's look at mixing an E song into an A one. (E into subdominant). E is ~330hz and A is 440. Pitch these up 2% (33 cents) and E becomes ~336 and A becomes ~448.5. Now, look at the ratio between 330 and 400: .75. Now, 336 and 448.5: ~.75. If I use more accurate measurements for the frequency, the ratios are revealed to be exactly the same. Therefore, a mix between the two if they're both +2% sounds exactly as nice as if they were at 0.

However: Let's look at a song in B and E, B pitched up at 2% and E pitched down at 2%. The frequency of the B song would be +33 cents (from ~247hz -> ~252), and the E song would be -33 cents (from ~330hz -> ~323.4). So the difference between the two would be ~66 cents (4%).

If you didn't understand that technical stuff, this results in the tracks sounding very bad together (the E and B ones), so when you choose what track to play, one of the most important factors to keep in mind is the overall pitch difference between the two. The difference should not exceed about 2.5 or so percent.

This'll be added in the next update to the guide.

The irony of the whole thing is that I actually do this out of habit and don't even think about it. Was one of those situations where I couldn't see the forest for all the trees.

As DJ Nuclear said in her blinding scientific way , yes you do add them.

If anything goes over 4 to 5 percent in pitch difference I usually treat it as a change in key.

Cheers
Nem

Thanks DJ Nuclear and Nemesis. This is very interesting, although it adds a complicated twist to harmonic mixing.

I find that is very difficult to mix harmonically without many records. Many times i'm playing a set by harmonic rules only to reach a dead end in the middle of the set. It's hard not having enough tracks to follow a complete harmonic set. Most of the time i have to stop not because i don't have a track in the following key, but because the tracks i have in key don't have anything to do with the set's flow. I like to start in C or D, then go up to A, play 2 or 3 A's, then 2 or 3 E's and then go through all keys to end in C or D again. It's great, because the set keeps changing a lot.

Mixing in key is not easy, and keying records is very hard.

On the other hand, mixing harmonically i can maintain a mix for 3 or 4 minutes, then play the second track for a minute alone, and then another 3 or 4 minute mix for a third track that's coming in. It's amazing, i find myself cursing many times because i don't have a third TT to cue the next record in time

I also found that sometimes the key rules can be a little bent - tracks which aren't in key amazingly blend in each other. Although this is very rare, and sometimes i have to use lower the highs or mids in the incoming track.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.