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Re: Demand for Citizenship

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Originally posted by Palestinian If you think that the natives of Canada put the past behind them, then you're dead wrong. As a matter of fact, they identify with the Palestinians and link the two tragedies together. It's funny that you mention that because in the coming month a Native speaker will be coming to York University to link the two conflicts. The fact that people still fight injustice after losing a war is a sign of strength. Palestinians are also fighting to exist. How would you like it if I told you to get over the Holocaust. They burned six million of you, so stop whining and get over it! How does that feel? Very painful, I'll bet.

As for the Natives here in Canada, stationary tribes like the Navajo didn't really get into too much trouble. It was the nomadic, territorial tribes like the Sioux that insisted on laying claim to ALL the land and, therefore, got into a war and a state of oppression. As much as it sucks for them to be in the position they're in, I don't think said Natives honestly think it would be legitimate to blow up Canadian military targets in order to get their land back. They tried to start a war with the colonists, they lost, and no matter how bitter they are, they know that they have to just deal with it.

I don't see how the holocaust has anything to do with this. We're talking about a localized military occupation, not a global killing spree. If all of the Arabs spontaneously decided to flee from Palestine, I hardly think the Jews in Israel would decide to chase them down and kill as many of them as possible, so please, don't try to liken this to the holocaust.

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It is legitimate under International Law to kill Israeli soldiers.

Um? Okay, whatever you say. Care to find me the relevant excerpt?

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And yes it is fair to brand the entire Israeli military. It is an oppressive and terrorist institution bent on genocide and ethnic cleansing. We have the right to kill and mutilate every one of them until they leave our land.

Holy sweeping generalizations, Batman. Palestinians and all other Arabs are all terrorists just waiting for their chance to kill more Jews until the entire race is exterminated. And once they're done with the Jews, they'll move to Americans and the rest of the western world. And the ones that haven't killed anyone or blown anything up yet are just biding their time or trying to raise enough money to buy some explosives. How's that for generalizing?

And yes, I was being facetious, I do not really believe this but I posted it to point out how utterly nonsensical your preceding post was. Considering that military service is mandatory for every Israeli citizen who is physically capable of it, you've essentially branded the entire Israeli population as terrorists, which is really no better than the hypothetical generalization I just made.

quote:

One more thing. You imply that we should accept that we lost the war and get over it. Well sure, we have tried to do that. We want Israeli citizenship and will accept it any day any time! But if Israel won't grant us citizenship because their fear of being the minority (and fear of democracy, essentially), then they're the ones who can't get over the results of the war.

Requesting Israeli citizenship does seem reasonable, but this is the first time I've ever heard of this request? Can you post a link to an article or something?

I have a problem with your posts, Palestinian. I don't think the violence on either side is justified, and I'm perfectly willing to concede that several Israeli soldiers have committed just as many acts of violence out of hate as the Palestinian terrorists. But you seem to be trying to tell us that the violence on part of the Palestinians is justified, whereas the violence on part of the Israelis is not. I'm not loving your selective morality, here, and in fact I think it's rather representative of the mentality down in the middle east - on the one hand, you claim you just want citizenship and/or peace, but on the other hand, you think all these killings are justified and wouldn't mind seeing them continued. There's no inherent logic in this viewpoint - it's just totally emotional and biased.

You kind of have to take your pick - do you want the violence to stop, or do you want them to keep killing each other?

You also appear to be assuming that I'm religiously Jewish and/or Zionist, which is not the case - I'm agnostic and don't claim any ties to Israel or the Middle East. I'm simply pointing out the hypocritical reactionism in your posts.

Oh and failsafe, I'm finished with you, your posts are full of personal opinion with no logic or foundation. You don't even listen to what other people have to say, every reply I get from you seems to be nothing more than an ad hominem attack. If you want to attack the validity of my arguments, fine, but if you're just going to attack me then you're just a waste of time.

quote:

Originally posted by failsafe military objectives of Operation Enduring Freedom, as articulated by President George W. Bush in his Sept. 20th Address to a Joint Session of Congress and his Oct. 7th address to country, include the destruction of terrorist training camps and infrastructure within Afghanistan, the capture of al Qaeda leaders, and the cessation of terrorist activities in Afghanistan clearly you're not versed with american special forces tactics. The american SOG, and many other units operated in vietnamese clothing for nearly the entire war. Read up on the Pheionx program if you want a quick history on american violation of the geneva convetion. Torture, killing of civilans, blackmail, etc were every day occurances. In specific read up on "the bell telephone hour".

I'm not commenting on history of special operations, I'm referring to combat operations in Afghanistan/Iraq.

Article 37, paragraph 1, of the Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions of August 12, 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I)[2]:

It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary and resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy: (a) the feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender; (b) the feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness; (c) the feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and (d) the feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not parties to the conflict.

So unless there is planned intent to attack in armed force it would not be a violation to say travel in civilian clothes or conduct covert surveillance operations in civilian clothes. Of course once one side begins throwing out the geneva conventions, the other side ultimately reciprocates as we can see in the whole Israeli/Pal affair.

Re: Re: Demand for Citizenship

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Originally posted by DigiNut ... I have a problem with your posts, Palestinian. I don't think the violence on either side is justified, and I'm perfectly willing to concede that several Israeli soldiers have committed just as many acts of violence out of hate as the Palestinian terrorists. But you seem to be trying to tell us that the violence on part of the Palestinians is justified, whereas the violence on part of the Israelis is not. I'm not loving your selective morality, here, and in fact I think it's rather representative of the mentality down in the middle east - on the one hand, you claim you just want citizenship and/or peace, but on the other hand, you think all these killings are justified and wouldn't mind seeing them continued. There's no inherent logic in this viewpoint - it's just totally emotional and biased. ...

Thing is, he's in the defensive. Every other day there is a new anti-Palestine thread in this forum section - this one being a nice example. These threads all start with some article or another describing the latest hideous attack by some suicide bomber, bad government by Arafat, or similar. I cannot recall a similar thread blaming the opposite side (yet, an example can probably be found if you search for it).
When you are defending the actions of some part, as Palestinian is, then you are not supposed to justify those of the other part. After all, you are not seeing any of the regular pro-Israelis voicing understanding for the plight of the Palestinians either, are you?

Re: Re: Re: Demand for Citizenship

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Originally posted by trancaholic Thing is, he's in the defensive. Every other day there is a new anti-Palestine thread in this forum section - this one being a nice example. These threads all start with some article or another describing the latest hideous attack by some suicide bomber, bad government by Arafat, or similar. I cannot recall a similar thread blaming the opposite side (yet, an example can probably be found if you search for it). When you are defending the actions of some part, as Palestinian is, then you are not supposed to justify those of the other part. After all, you are not seeing any of the regular pro-Israelis voicing understanding for the plight of the Palestinians either, are you?

Defensive or not, I don't like anyone condoning killing. The problem with the "Zionist" posters is that they whine about the Palestinian killings but manage to look the other way when the Israelis do it - however, that's a far cry from actually saying that the killings are justified!

Besides which, obviously the pro-Israelis are not going to voice understanding for the Palestinians, but posting inflammatory statements against them isn't going to help his cause. There are plenty of objective people here who are neither pro-Israeli nor anti-Israeli and who know that both sides have problems. That's the angle that would make sense to me.

The Palestinians have a right to armed struggle against Israeli occupation. It is also a method of self defence. I do NOT justify attacks on Israeli civilians, but I do justify attacks on soldiers, who are a tool of death and oppression in Palestine.

Someone once posted that the pro Palestinian posters in the forums acknowledge the problems of the Palestinian cause, such as the murder of innocent Israeli civilians, while many pro-Israeli posters do not recognize the problems with Israel's actions. I just feel you should know that since you're new here.

You seem to fail to acknowledge that in this particular conflict there is the Occupier and the Occupied. They are not on the same level. Think about that for a minute, maybe you'll understand my point.

You say that we should just deal with the fact that we are under the longest military occupation of the last century. What I said about the Holocaust should have explained how rediculous you sound when you say that, but it didn't. The natives started a war with the colonists and lost. Well Diginut, what makes you think that the war the Palestinian started with the colonists has ended? There is no dealing with injustice, diginut. There is no dealing with occupation. We will 'deal with it' when the occupation ends and we are granted independence. I see your arguement as baseless and pointless.

Requesting Israeli citizenship was first proposed in 1969 by the DFLP, but dropped by both sides at that time for the unwillingness to coexist. I don't know when this proposal was revived but it has been a long time now, especially by those who did not favor Oslo and the two state solution, including the refugees. With the demographic time bomb ticking against Israel and the fall of Oslo and the Roadmap, a one state democratic solution is now in favor amongst many previously two state advocates, including some Israeli scholars. You can find much information on this. The issue is all over the activist community and was proposed by the PA just last week. A proposal to disolve the PA and demand the vote from Israel was put on the table. Check out http://electronicintifada.net/new.shtml for articles.

If Israeli citizens are required to do military service in the Occupied Territories, then that's a problem they have created. As long as Palestinians are concerned, when they are in uniform and in the territories, they are soldiers working to oppress the people. That's why the refusenik movement is on the rise within the IDF.

I'm not assuming that you're Jewish or Zionist, but for you to put the Occupier and the Occupied on the same level disturbs me and would disturb ANY person who sympathizes with the Palestinian cause and even those who are neutral and objective.

quote:

I'm not loving your selective morality, here, and in fact I think it's rather representative of the mentality down in the middle east

This is a racist comment. I'm the one that should be finished with you.

digi: navajo's are an american tribe not canadian. If you're going to try and come of as an expert at least get the basics right.

a few tribes that were in ontario/quebec

sioux/cree/mohawk/ojibiway/huron/etc

occrider: The activities of special forces never is on the front page news. The stuff about vietnam has just come to light in the last decade or so. I'm sure 20 years from now we'll be hearing about the particulars of the geneva convetion that the americans are breaking in afghanistan and iraq. As as the picture of american soliders riding around afghanistan with some form of turban on and local clothing running search and destroy missions. You come to your own conclusions.

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Originally posted by failsafe occrider: The activities of special forces never is on the front page news. The stuff about vietnam has just come to light in the last decade or so. I'm sure 20 years from now we'll be hearing about the particulars of the geneva convetion that the americans are breaking in afghanistan and iraq. As as the picture of american soliders riding around afghanistan with some form of turban on and local clothing running search and destroy missions. You come to your own conclusions.

Perhaps. I suppose time shall tell.

well, after reading every single post over the last 45 minutes, i thought ide drop in on the discussion.

I happen to sympathize on the Israeli side of things, but I also understand the Palistinean side too. But, there is one thing that both sides actually come into agreeance to! and that is, they both want peace! of course thats easy to understand, and come to, but neither side can come into any agreement of how to attain this peace. It is understood that Palistine wants their own government formed, and all their territory restored. My question goes to the Israeli side. Why not restore the pre-196(?) borders. before the arab war happened.....and help the Palistineans by withdrawing from that land, jewish settlements and all, and letting the palistineans take care of their own issues. and letting the jews take care of theirs.

I say, make a deadline for withdrawal, such as a year. restore the original borders...even though there might be land you want to keep, so what, you want peace or more bloodshed is my response. israel might even be able to help the palistineans by helping them achieve stability as they themselves are trying to achieve. official apologies should be made by both sides, and a treaty of goodwill signed. thereafter, both sides should show their goodwill, through whatever means is necessary to sustain their peace.
i dont believe this will ever be achieved during my lifetime, and im only 16.....

but aa. the attitudes being shown by both sides is untolerable. palistineans keep suicide bombing, isrealis keep launching incursions into the palistinean territory. both sides add into this conflict. each suicide bombing adds more conflict. each israeli incursion adds to the conflict. nothing can be made out of these actions. there is no excuse for suicide bombings, no matter what the situation is. think about, what if the palistineans took the initiative, and began showing signs, real signs i mean, that they really want peace. ceasing of suicide bombings, the distruction of the islamic terrorist groups, which are sorry excuses for anything but conflict. israel would most likely get the message, especially from international pressure, borders, might be restored, new gov't formed. thats one way of putting it.

but in conclusion. its really isreal who should take the initiative in that they are the strongest nation of the two by far.

1. Withdraw from Palistinean territory
2. Help to form new gov't of palistine
3. Stay out of Palistinean politics
4. Restore pre-arab war borders
5. Isreal stick to Isreal, Palistine stick to Palistine
6. Goodwill treaties signed.

Then the islamic terrorist groups would therefore be useless, for isreal would no longer be "oppressing the Palistinean people". therefore, they would lose public support, b/c the conflict is over. both sides have peace, abd they would be viewed as nothing more than trouble-makers trying to thwart the peace, as they do now, with every peace attempt. they try to thwart it before it starts.

........occrider isnt new. look at his registration date. also, ive seen at least 50 of his posts, there must be something wrong with your rank occ, cause your not an addict in training...

There really is no easy answer to this whole mess.

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There really is no easy answer to this whole mess.

Like I said, i don't believe there will ever be peace with the israel, and the arabs. But refering to my religon (christianity), the book of revalation does describe the turmoil thats going on right now in the middle east. and also describes the time when isreal will have temporary peace when, the "anti-christ" signs a peace treaty promising israel peace. also, the treaty allows isreal to rebuild the temple of solomon if i can recall, and start making sacrifices again as they did thousands of years ago. but about 3 1/2 years later, the "anti-christ" will go into the temple, and put in an idol of himself, and declare himself God and Messiah, starting the events that finally lead to the gigantic battle of armaggedon, which revelation describes as "the blood running for 180 miles like the river jordan." and "blood as high a horses neck". That describes the total destruction of the most powerful army ever built that was going to destroy israel but was destroyed by jesus's own army, after his second coming. This happens after the battle with the jews, where the jews are totally defeated, and the remnants fleeing into the mountains for a last stand. thats when it says jesus will come and save them, in just when it looks as though the anti-christs army will. and thats the end of the world as i think it will happen...

let me research and give you some interesting passages, and interpretations. revelation is a book with lots of hebrew symbolism, so its hard to understand many things, but most of it has been interpreted to give us a good understanding...

Christian Zionism

Heinz, I fully agree with your first post. That is my position as well. Your second post about the book of Revelations takes what is called a "Christian Zionist" point of view. Christian Zionists believe that the Bible prophecies the second coming of Christ when the Jewish temple is rebuilt. There are millions of Christian Zionists in America and are very powerful, such as Jerry Falwell and some say Bush. But this so called prophecy in the book of Revelations has been refuted and challenged. Especially due to the fact that Palestinian Christians will never believe that Jesus will return and side with Israel. I haven't done much research on Christian Zionism but I'll get to that sometime in the near future.

I highly suggest this website for your research on the topic. It is by a Palestinian Priest in California that has been active and teaches about the dangers of Christian Zionism.

http://www.al-bushra.org/

God Bless

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Originally posted by Heinz ...and also describes the time when isreal will have temporary peace when, the "anti-christ" signs a peace treaty promising israel peace. also, the treaty allows isreal to rebuild the temple of solomon if i can recall, and start making sacrifices again as they did thousands of years ago. but about 3 1/2 years later, the "anti-christ" will go into the temple, and put in an idol of himself, and declare himself God and Messiah, starting the events that finally lead to the gigantic battle of armaggedon, which revelation describes as "the blood running for 180 miles like the river jordan." and "blood as high a horses neck". That describes the total destruction of the most powerful army ever built that was going to destroy israel but was destroyed by jesus's own army, after his second coming. This happens after the battle with the jews, where the jews are totally defeated, and the remnants fleeing into the mountains for a last stand. thats when it says jesus will come and save them, in just when it looks as though the anti-christs army will. and thats the end of the world as i think it will happen...

(invert positions)

Israel's temporary peace: between the end of the first intifada and the start of the second

Anti-christ going into the temple: Sharon making is visit to the Haram el-Sharif mosque

Blood running for 180 miles etc: start of the second intifada, see above why - palestinian deaths in tsahal attacks; civilian israelis killed by suicide bombings


For when is the destruction of the Tsahal?? I want to witness that!

here are some passages from the bible pertaining to the turmoil in this world as we grow closer to the coming of the anti-christ, as the bible says it.

HOW UNBIELEVERS WILL MOURN AT THEIR PAST AND FUTURE

MATHEW 24
28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[3]
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

^^^^Unbelievers will finally see him right in front of them, about to deal the wrath of his anger. and they will mourn. For they know what is going to happen.


THE BEGINNING

Matthew 24

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[1] ' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

^^^^^Take your own conclusions from this passage. Can you hear rumors of war, everyday in the news? How many earthquakes have occured in the past 2 monthes? California, Washington, Iran, ....Would you consider Africa in a famine???

Matthew 24
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

^^^^^What are many of your attitudes towards people who believe in God?? I saw it in many religious debates here. Many of you hate people who believe in God, or ridicule them, or etc. When this time comes, you will be able to exert your hatred, and frustration. You will be able to execute Christians by will. You will wonder why all these things are happening. How helpless you will feel. You can't "fight" god. BUT, you can fight his people. Which verse "9" states.

Matthew 24
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination(anti-christ) that causes desolation,'[2] spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

^^^^^^This, my friends, describes, the plight of christians and many jews as they flee from the anti-christs forces. as i said before, the anti-christ will make peace with isreal by treaty, and allow them to rebuild the temple mount of solomon. there they will begin to make sacrifices to the Lord again. some time after that, the anti-christ will break treaty, enter the temple, place himself as God, and put on the in the center, and idol of himself.....This states, that when this occurs, immediatly flee from your home, whereever you are. Just get out. Hide, in the mountains, wherever. You can liken this the Hitler and WWII, how many jews fled, and hid from years in many cases from the nazis. Reading this, you can sense the urgency of these passages, of "dont even go back for your coat, for anything. his forces are already coming for you, so just flee, if you want to stay alive".

Revelation 13:7
He was given power to make war against the saints(christians) and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.<(the entire world)

^^^^^The Anti-christs power

THE SUFFERING

Matthew 24
21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect(those saved after the rapture) those days will be shortened.

If not for the mercy of Christ, for those saved after the coming of the anti-christ, no one would survive, and its by his "intervention" that these days are numbered.

Isaiah 34

Judgment Against the Nations

1 Come near, you nations, and listen;
pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
the world, and all that comes out of it!
2 The LORD is angry with all nations;
his wrath is upon all their armies.
He will totally destroy [1] them,
he will give them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be thrown out,
their dead bodies will send up a stench;
the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
5 My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
the people I have totally destroyed.

Endurance of Christians

Revelation 13:10
If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed[ 13:10 Some manuscripts anyone kills] with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

^^^those who become christians after the rapture will endure incrediable difficulties, as the anti-christs tries to destroy them. but He says to be patient, and remain faithfull, for it will end when it will end.

THE DECEPTIONS

MATTHEW
23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

As it says, when Christ finally comes, no one can deny him. EVERYONE will see him, like you see the sun at noon-time, you will see him in the sky.



THE FINAL PLIGHT OF THE BATTLE IN WHICH THE ANTI-CHRIST INITIALLY WINS

The LORD Comes and Reigns

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

How Jerusalem will be overrun^^^^

Isaiah 11:12
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

Last remnants of Israel^

Zechariah 14:2
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

Different passage of the ransacking of Jerusalem.

EVENTS PRECEEDING THE ATTACK

REVELATION 16:
17The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

How man will become so frustrated that he can't fight God, brewing even more hatred against his people, leading into the attack on Jerusalem. Because, since you can't fight God himself, you CAN fight his people, as will happen.

THE ACTUAL RETURN OF JESUS(BEST PART)

Revelation 19


The Rider on the White Horse

11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[1] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

^^^The armies accompanying Christ in heaven will doubtless include both the redeemed who were caught alive, as well as the those who were raised from the grave, at the Rapture. Paul speaks of the Rapture, he promises that all those who are caught up "shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:17). Many passages of Scripture promise that when He returns, He will bring us with Him: "When CHrist who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory" (Col. 3:4). "The Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. (Zech. 14:5). Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints." (Jude 14).

^^And notice that He immediately executes vengence on the Anti-Christ and the evil hordes of the earth. As for the antichrist, the lawless one, "Lord will consume [him] with the breath of His mouth and destroy [him] with the brightness of His coming" (2 Thess. 2:8). The rest of the wicked are destroyed with the sword that preceeds from Christ's mouth (Rev. 19:21), possibly signifying that He judges and slays them merely by speaking the Word of God. Both the Beast and the False Prophet(Other Beast)(compare to Josef Goebbels) are cast alive into the lake of fire. (v.20). the rest of the dead are kept uin the grave throughout the millennial kingdom, then resurrected for judgement and cast into eternal perdition. (20:5, 14-15)

AFTERMATH

Revelation 14
11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

^^^^anyone who bears the mark of 666, and worhships him. NOTE: for ever and ever. think about that. we live some 80 years on aveage. how many 80 years are in eternity. "infinite" there will be no end to the torment.

The Thousand Years

1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Satan's Doom

7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

^^^^what will happen to satan^^^^ and to all who faught against God.

THE SECOND KINGDOM

Revelation 21


The New Jerusalem

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[1] in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits[2] thick,[3] by man's measurement, which the angel was using. 18The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[4] 21The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.
22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.





and thats my research that ive been doing for the past 2 1/2 hours. lastly, this is very interesting passage about a man begging to be given mercy from his torment.

LUKE
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[3] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

I should add the good parts of this entire story of revelation, and the End Times, but the subject here is the conflicts going on now, and how they are related to the bible, so if it comes to it, ill add the good parts for what happens to those who remain faithfull, and those taken up during the rapture. i hope this was interesting...

quote:

Heinz, I fully agree with your first post. That is my position as well. Your second post about the book of Revelations takes what is called a "Christian Zionist" point of view. Christian Zionists believe that the Bible prophecies the second coming of Christ when the Jewish temple is rebuilt. There are millions of Christian Zionists in America and are very powerful, such as Jerry Falwell and some say Bush. But this so called prophecy in the book of Revelations has been refuted and challenged. Especially due to the fact that Palestinian Christians will never believe that Jesus will return and side with Israel. I haven't done much research on Christian Zionism but I'll get to that sometime in the near future.

I never knew what it was called, but now i do.

in the bible, the jews have always been god's people. but when jesus came, they never realized that he was the messiah. so they are still waiting for the messiah. when the battle for jerusalem is won by the anti-christ, Jesus will then come and reveal himself as the messiah, and finally save the jews. im still trying to find passages supporting that, just give me time.

But tell me the evidence that without a doubt refutes it. i dont believe there is such evidence, as in (without a doubt). I do believe the evidence shown by non-christian-zionists is only debatable.

Palistinean, can you plz give me like a specific page, because the one you gave me was good, but i just didnt know where to go. theres so much stuff to look at. thanz

Christian Zionism

Heinz, check out the section that says what would you like to know about Arab Christians before and after Islam. Or just click here:

http://www.al-bushra.org/ecu-inter/zionist.htm

There is tons of information on the topic that I still didn't look at. I cannot give you a good enough counter arguement right now because like I said I didn't read much about it yet. But whatever I do read will be from this website. I'm actually inviting the Priest to come speak at my university about the issue.

*sigh*

You're asking a nation to withdraw to their pre-war borders after they won the war. Whether or not it's the "right" thing to do, and whether or not it will appease the Palestinian people, it's just not going to happen!

If you were to fight to the death over some piece of property, win it, and then have someone else tell you to give it back, would you do it?

I realize that the people from Palestine may have been there first, but that demand just isn't reasonable, it's never going to happen no matter how you rationalize it.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut *sigh* You're asking a nation to withdraw to their pre-war borders after they won the war. Whether or not it's the "right" thing to do, and whether or not it will appease the Palestinian people, it's just not going to happen! If you were to fight to the death over some piece of property, win it, and then have someone else tell you to give it back, would you do it? I realize that the people from Palestine may have been there first, but that demand just isn't reasonable, it's never going to happen no matter how you rationalize it.

So if we follow what you are saying, it is appropriate to rename Iraq: USA #2

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King So if we follow what you are saying, it is appropriate to rename Iraq: USA #2

Not really, since the USA's primary motivation in invading Iraq was to get Saddam, not establish a homeland there.

The Israelis can't just pack up and go home... they ARE home. I mean, a full generation later, we're talking about people who have grown up in Israel their whole lives - do you think they're going to willingly just hand over their houses to Palestinians? Would you do it, if you were in their position?

Israel is their home, and while I'm not saying that the land is "rightfully" theirs, I am saying that it simply isn't practical to tell them to just head for the hills. That arrangement will never work, if anybody wants peace down there then they're going to have to find a better compromise.

quote:

You're asking a nation to withdraw to their pre-war borders after they won the war. Whether or not it's the "right" thing to do, and whether or not it will appease the Palestinian people, it's just not going to happen! If you were to fight to the death over some piece of property, win it, and then have someone else tell you to give it back, would you do it? I realize that the people from Palestine may have been there first, but that demand just isn't reasonable, it's never going to happen no matter how you rationalize it.

the usa has done it many times before. after world war II, soverienty was given back to all the liberated nations except on the soviet side, where puppet gov'ts were formed.

quote:

So if we follow what you are saying, it is appropriate to rename Iraq: USA #2

what u just said, just gave me an excuse to not type anymore for this post. well said, and thanks for given me the break of typin it out.

quote:

Not really, since the USA's primary motivation in invading Iraq was to get Saddam, not establish a homeland there. The Israelis can't just pack up and go home... they ARE home. I mean, a full generation later, we're talking about people who have grown up in Israel their whole lives - do you think they're going to willingly just hand over their houses to Palestinians? Would you do it, if you were in their position? Israel is their home, and while I'm not saying that the land is "rightfully" theirs, I am saying that it simply isn't practical to tell them to just head for the hills. That arrangement will never work, if anybody wants peace down there then they're going to have to find a better compromise.

well, i just named the best, and only comprimise that can actually be dealt out. like i said, sacrifices have to be made. sorry, if you must be relocated, but its for the better good. would u rather move somewhere else, or keep hearing about suicide bombings and rumors of war.

did any of you read my post on how the christian bible relates to the middle east conflict????

quote:

Originally posted by Heinz well, i just named the best, and only comprimise that can actually be dealt out. like i said, sacrifices have to be made. sorry, if you must be relocated, but its for the better good. would u rather move somewhere else, or keep hearing about suicide bombings and rumors of war.

Please explain how it's for the greater good? It's for the good of Palestine only, Israel doesn't stand to gain anything from such an arrangement, except a very weak military position.

I like your logic though. It's completely okay for them to say "give us what we want and we'll stop killing you", right?

(Note: once again, I am NOT trying to say that Israel isn't doing plenty of killing of its own, I am simply challenging the attitude that any of the killing is justified).

quote:

Originally posted by Heinz ........occrider isnt new. look at his registration date. also, ive seen at least 50 of his posts, there must be something wrong with your rank occ, cause your not an addict in training...

What can i say ... I'm a slow learner.

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