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-- What is one Israeli life worth?
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quote:

Originally posted by borron NO, it doesn't.

Yes it does - you allow people from other European nations to come virtually unchecked in and out of your nation - with not even a visa requirement!

As opposed to the fact that as an Israeli such as myself I need a visa to come visit Portugal, why are you discriminating against me???

No, you're wrong. It's not other european nations, only people who belong to countries within the european union. That's a lot different you know.

That's the same thing as between canada and usa, just envolving 15 countries. Between the 15 countries there's free trade and free passage. People from any other countries outside the european union need visas, it's not like there's stricter guidelines/visas for middle east/north korea/any other region.

I basicly agree with borron. Apart from the statement that the US is discriminating. The system they are employing is just there to manage a problem, not to judge people. Well not to say for example "assume everyone from here is a terrorist" it's just that "people from this place are higher risk" and so discretly that higher risk will be explored to try and minimise it. I'm not saying the US responce has been proportional just that it's not racist. It's just a risk minimisation policy, nothing more noting less. In other words not a statement of guilt or an assumtion of guilt just of higher risk.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish I basicly agree with borron. Apart from the statement that the US is discriminating. The system they are employing is just there to manage a problem, not to judge people. Well not to say for example "assume everyone from here is a terrorist" it's just that "people from this place are higher risk" and so discretly that higher risk will be explored to try and minimise it. I'm not saying the US responce has been proportional just that it's not racist. It's just a risk minimisation policy, nothing more noting less. In other words not a statement of guilt or an assumtion of guilt just of higher risk.

hey then you agree with me!

borron doesn't think this way.. at least thats what I got from what he wrote.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...non_hezbollah_1

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah will kidnap more Israelis to secure the release of Lebanese prisoners, if necessary, the militant movement's leader warned Thursday.

this is why you dont do business with terrorists

Wtf ... that is indeed fucked up. You would think that hezbollah would take the trade deal in good faith and recognize it as a sign that progress and agreement can be worked out. If they do indeed start taking more hostages to engineer trade deals then I would say fuck them.

quote:

Originally posted by occrider ... then I would say fuck them.

Oh so your trying to say you support them now?!

Terrorist supporter!!! Terrorist supporter!!!
...

Ashcroft! Oh Ashcroft, bring your boys we have a terrorist here!

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus The US doesn't racially profile.

yoepus, you don't know how wrong you are. I've been a target of racial profiling many, many, many times. "It categorially puts stricter guidelines on people originating for the middle east" is racial profiling.
I'm 17, yoepus, 17. I will you bet you all my money I'm on some sort of US watchlist because I fit the terrorist category. How is that not racial profiling? Every time i travel, i am subjected to "random" security checks. how is that not racial profiling. pull your head out of your ass. My mom, my 5'2'', 48 year old mom has been asked to "wasit in the side room" so they can check her out. If you believe that racial profiling doesn't exist in America, I am through with you because obviously you don't know what's going on. If you would like me to cite other instances in which I have been the target of racial profiling, feel free to ask.

NOW, if for some reason i misunderstood your post, please tell me in which case I will gladly break my foot off in my own ass. If, however, I read your post correctly, please also indicate that.

Borron, they actually show Palestinian homes being demolished on tv in portugal? I'm not surprised you support us. It's so rare, if ever, that they show these things on tv in North America. And if they do show a home being demolished they're quick to mention that it belonged to a suicide bomber, even though homes are demolished everyday and thousands made homeless, not to mention the farms and orchards plowed up and the thousands of trees uprooted-destruction of the economy and livelihood.

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian Borron, they actually show Palestinian homes being demolished on tv in portugal? I'm not surprised you support us. It's so rare, if ever, that they show these things on tv in North America. And if they do show a home being demolished they're quick to mention that it belonged to a suicide bomber, even though homes are demolished everyday and thousands made homeless, not to mention the farms and orchards plowed up and the thousands of trees uprooted-destruction of the economy and livelihood.

Cry me a river!

quote:

Originally posted by DrummeRaver86 yoepus, you don't know how wrong you are. I've been a target of racial profiling many, many, many times. "It categorially puts stricter guidelines on people originating for the middle east" is racial profiling. I'm 17, yoepus, 17. I will you bet you all my money I'm on some sort of US watchlist because I fit the terrorist category. How is that not racial profiling? Every time i travel, i am subjected to "random" security checks. how is that not racial profiling.

this would be "national profiling" then or "Age/sexual profiling", they are not discriminating against you because of your race hence they are not racially profiling you.

I've had many Israeli friends that look like Arabs that had no trouble coming in and out of the country.. so obviously they are not using race as a criteria.

wait I just noticed something.. htf (like wtf but with a how) did this thread change from the topic of negotiating with terrorist to racial profiling?



ahhhhHHH ... so that's what the back button is for!

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian Borron, they actually show Palestinian homes being demolished on tv in portugal? I'm not surprised you support us. It's so rare, if ever, that they show these things on tv in North America. And if they do show a home being demolished they're quick to mention that it belonged to a suicide bomber, even though homes are demolished everyday and thousands made homeless, not to mention the farms and orchards plowed up and the thousands of trees uprooted-destruction of the economy and livelihood.

Here they show some images in national tv's, and there's one that is pretty much on the israeli side, but has great interviews with israeli ministers, arafat himself, the palestinian PM (can't remember his name) - once the reporter even intervied some members of the Hamas, they took him to a vineyard where they did some shooting to train themselves and a israeli military airplane passed by. They guy almost shit in his pants, as they all had to lay themselves in the ground close to the vines to prevent the plane from seeing them.

But where i see most images is on Euronews. It's like an european CNN, which transmits all over europe, middle east and north africa in 8 or 9 languages. They express pretty much the european POV (they are unbiased, but you can denote a subtle criticism to israel). They have a program which is called "No comment", which are images from that day with no comments at all, just the video.

It's amazing and sickening to watch a giant armoured bulldozer destroy an apartment block, women crying, kids throwing stones at it, then comes an israeli jeep, starts firing bullets at random, hits a little kid, catches a young palestinian and beats the shit out of him... all this lasts about 3 to 5 minutes, with no comments at all. It's like "take your own conclusions".

(BTW, they do the same for images of suicide bombings in Israel - just as sick)

Hamas made it clear today that they fully intend to capture Israeli soldiers to strike deals for the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israel, way to go Sharon, now you will have to "bring more boys home" as he termed it in his explanation for the Hezbollah deal. I was the Palestinians I would do the same thing if I see it could secure the release of Palestinians from Israel.

400 Palestinians = 1 Israeli business man is one way of answering the question, here's another...

Since the second Intifada reupted in 2000, more than 600 Israelis have lost their lives, and over 3000 Palestinians...

So, I make that 1 Israeli = 5 Palestinians...

(BTW, you should be careful what you term as "European anti-semitism" as Ariel Sharon recently stated that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic...which I'm sure everyone will agree is a load of b*ll*x! Europeans criticise Israel yes, but that doesn't mean anti-semitism at all...)

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan Hamas made it clear today that they fully intend to capture Israeli soldiers to strike deals for the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israel, way to go Sharon, now you will have to "bring more boys home" as he termed it in his explanation for the Hezbollah deal. I was the Palestinians I would do the same thing if I see it could secure the release of Palestinians from Israel.

Well, at least now they may change their strategy from murdering civilians to capturing civilians. But seriously, it was a pretty bad move. Now, I'd understand an 1 on 1 exchange or something like that, but exchanging one israeli for 400 terrorists is really not a very smart move.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus this would be "national profiling" then or "Age/sexual profiling", they are not discriminating against you because of your race hence they are not racially profiling you.

how is that not racial profiling? i'm arab. they profiled me as being a terrorist because i'm arab. racial profiling. not that hard of a concept.

quote:

Originally posted by DrummeRaver86 how is that not racial profiling? i'm arab. they profiled me as being a terrorist because i'm arab. racial profiling. not that hard of a concept.

Did you actually read his post? It's got nothing to do with what race you are, it's what area you came from. You came from the middle east. It's a risky area. It's national, not racial. Get it through your head, it makes no more sense to say people are anti-arab than it does to say they're anti-semitic.

Geez, all this whining, save it for elsewhere and keep it on topic. As for the post about 600 Israelis being killed compared to 3000 Palestinians, where is your source? And do you have statistics on how many Israelis/Palestinians were just attacked or critically injured? (since it's harder for the Palestinians to *kill*, given that Israel has more firepower). You're talking about a completely separate issue. The post was literally about a "trade" of prisoners, signifying their relative importance - that really has nothing to do with which state has more members killed in war.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut As for the post about 600 Israelis being killed compared to 3000 Palestinians, where is your source? And do you have statistics on how many Israelis/Palestinians were just attacked or critically injured? (since it's harder for the Palestinians to *kill*, given that Israel has more firepower).

http://www.ifamericansknew.org//stats/injuries.html

24,528 Palestinians* and 6,077 Israelis** have been injured since September 29, 2000.



Proportion: aprox 4:1 (palestine:israel)



http://www.ifamericansknew.org//stats/deaths.html

2,664 Palestinians* and 909 Israelis** have been killed since September 29, 2000.



Proportion: aprox 3:1 (palestine:israel)





"There were actually only 4 Israeli children killed during the first six months of the current uprising. One Israeli child�s death was reported in three different headlines.

In other words, 150% of Israeli children�s deaths and only 5% of Palestinian children�s deaths were reported by the San Francisco Chronicle in headlines and/or the first paragraph of relevant articles."
Source


* This number is from the Palestine Red Crescent Society, a national humanitarian society that provides a wide range of health, social and other humanitarian services for the Palestinian People throughout the Middle East. It is also an observer member in the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (IFRC). PRCS statistics

** This number is from Israel�s military, the Israel Defense Forces. IDF statistics


ifamericansknew.org great site

the whole casualties of war arguement is completely pointless, it shows nothing regardling the morality of either side nor which side is more deserving of praise

In WW2 the German suffered more casualties then the Americans and there were more civilians killed on axis grouds then there were on the allied areas, does this mean that the Allies were more evil or that the axis were better because they suffered more casualties? No.

Most of the fighting that exsists is done on palestinian territories, hence we can see a logical conclusion that more palestinians would be killed, does this imply that israel is morally inferior? No.

quote:

Originally posted by borron In other words, 150% of Israeli children�s deaths and only 5% of Palestinian children�s deaths were reported by the San Francisco Chronicle in headlines and/or the first paragraph of relevant articles."

Yes, but this is the fallacy of statistics, they tell you nothing about the context. First, what is the definition of a child? Someone under 18 I suspect --- thats a very broad range, considering many suicide bombers were "children".

Second, the manner in which Israeli children were killed - babies shot at point blank as a terrorist infiltrates civilian houses - as opposed to children killed by careless fire, is much more morally startilling and so it makes sense there are more headlines about it.



--------

Back on topic

This trade 400-1 seems very radical to all of us, and even to me, but you I just want you all to understand that amongst Israelis there is this unspeakable bond in such cases where it is understood that the Israeli life or remains hold such great moral value that it must be retained at all expense. Its hard to articulate this feeling, but I haven't found that it exist in many other societies, and would be hard to articulate to those who haven't experienced it.

I think the closest example I can come with that might be fimilar to some people here is the commoradity amongst US militarymen, especially marines, the example of "Blackhawk Down" where against all common sense the servicemen risked their own lives for the bodies of their comrades. Perhaps its a bond that grows due to military service, and since virtually all the Israeli citizerny shares the experience of military service it is so prevelant in its society.

one for all and all for one

musketeer stylz

The Israeli "Wall" will only block Palestinian terrorists if guarded and mined, and travel between the two is banned. Is that the plan? Sounds good, if they plan to use it as a FEBA.

[[[smoke]]]

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Did you actually read his post? It's got nothing to do with what race you are, it's what area you came from. You came from the middle east. It's a risky area. It's national, not racial. Get it through your head, it makes no more sense to say people are anti-arab than it does to say they're anti-semitic.

You are wrong here. My sister doesnt even look middle eastern and she was stopped becuase they found out she was part iranian in decent. Weve lived in Canada our whole lives. Why was she interrogated by Americans? Becuase of her race...the region where she came from was NORTH AMERICA.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King You are wrong here. My sister doesnt even look middle eastern and she was stopped becuase they found out she was part iranian in decent. Weve lived in Canada our whole lives. Why was she interrogated by Americans? Becuase of her race...the region where she came from was NORTH AMERICA.

I'm quiet curious, how did they find that out exactly.. that she was part Iranian?


If she is a Canadian citizen, and doesn't look middle eastern, and she was still stopped .. ya thats defintely racisim right there

Its true.. those INS bastards are racisits.. its just like when they stopped my white-Austrilian friend last year when he was coming back from spring break in Mexico and they decided to kick him out of the country because they thought he was coming to work illegally... damn racist.

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