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Well, the reason I picked on France is because someone asked why Americans hate the France. It's interesting to note that American's coalition outside of the UN was "bribed," but if France wants an "international coalition" outside of the UN its peachy.

Also, what about when *not* doing anything leads to loss of life, war and military build-up? Suicide bombing/Isreali killings in Isreal, or concentration camps during WWII, or ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, or killings and toture in Iraq. There comes a point where you have to act, and not sit around watching people get killed or their human rights destroyed. I'm not willing to sit around and watch people die so I can feel good about using peaceful, diplomatic channels. France is infamous for this and the rest of Europe is starting to follow in their footsteps. It's nice to see that both WWI and WWII have taught Europe absolutely nothing...lets just sit around a talk while shit happens and hope everything works out in the end.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Well, the reason I picked on France is because someone asked why Americans hate the France. It's interesting to note that American's coalition outside of the UN was "bribed," but if France wants an "international coalition" outside of the UN its peachy. Also, what about when *not* doing anything leads to loss of life, war and military build-up? Suicide bombing/Isreali killings in Isreal, or concentration camps during WWII, or ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, or killings and toture in Iraq. There comes a point where you have to act, and not sit around watching people get killed or their human rights destroyed. I'm not willing to sit around and watch people die so I can feel good about using peaceful, diplomatic channels. France is infamous for this and the rest of Europe is starting to follow in their footsteps. It's nice to see that both WWI and WWII have taught Europe absolutely nothing...lets just sit around a talk while shit happens and hope everything works out in the end.

"Peace for our time! Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

- Good old Neville

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Originally posted by Yoepus must.. MUST.. must... muST .. must restrain myself..

let it all out friend !!!

//Start Mindless Generilazation
I like Europeans for the most part. Except frenchies they always surrender, and they need to shower and shave more.

I also like Germans because they have funny dots over there letters. And there totally crazy.

Also I love Italians because they invented pizza and ice cream.

//End Mindless Generilazation

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Originally posted by NeoPhono What I'm saying is that Europe has become a continent of little action and a lot of talk.

Shoot first, ask later...

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Iraq disobeys UN policies

So do the US...

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I think on the other hand Americans are the eternal "realists," and that's where many of the problems between the US and Europe come from. Japan bombs Pearl Harbor, we attack. Terrorists fly planes into our buildings, we attack. Somebody decides to go against the UN or our ideals of civility, we attack. I'm not saying that we won't try diplomacy first, but we are in no way afraid to take *real* action when lines of communication become pointless.

So, attacking is realistic...

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It's nice to see that both WWI and WWII have taught Europe absolutely nothing...lets just sit around a talk while shit happens and hope everything works out in the end

Such a bullshit!!!! That is the reason why 'we' try to negotiate! In WWI people went to the battlefields thinking going to picnic and return in max 2 weeks as heroes.
But with WW2 you are partly right! But this was a special case..! Europeans were afraid of a second great war and the horrible experiences from WWI whereas the US never experienced the cruelties of wars in their own country (except the civil war)!

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Well, the reason I picked on France is because someone asked why Americans hate the France. It's interesting to note that American's coalition outside of the UN was "bribed," but if France wants an "international coalition" outside of the UN its peachy.

Pretty sure international coalition = UN.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Also, what about when *not* doing anything leads to loss of life, war and military build-up? Suicide bombing/Isreali killings in Isreal, or concentration camps during WWII, or ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, or killings and toture in Iraq. There comes a point where you have to act, and not sit around watching people get killed or their human rights destroyed.

Iraqis and especially Americans have been dying more than before we went in. There was no military build in Iraq, shit even their MIGs saw zero action Israel is not the US and they can take care of them selfs, or did you forget when they took up Iraq's Nuclear power plant site? We are not sending them billions just for nothing. Oh hey Bosnia, wasn't the reactionary right against it? And isnt the radical christian saying that Milosevic was right and should be honored as a hero for killing those dirty muslims? You know I am all for going into a country and saving people as long as its what you tell the people, not some lie to get the country to go along with it. Try doing a survey in America and ask "Would you go to War to save some Jews in Israel or some Arabs in Iraq" I bet the majority would say no!

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I'm not willing to sit around and watch people die so I can feel good about using peaceful, diplomatic channels.

You're at moment sitting around.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono France is infamous for this and the rest of Europe is starting to follow in their footsteps. It's nice to see that both WWI and WWII have taught Europe absolutely nothing...lets just sit around a talk while shit happens and hope everything works out in the end.

And I am glad Vietnam has thought us nothing as well.

Clearly there is an appropriate balance between the two. We've seen some of the more catastrophic failures of inaction perpetrated by Europe throughout the past century and we've clearly seen the failures of American overreaction. Neither in itself can be said to be the "correct" approach.

First of all, Vietnam taught us something about France that was already extremely well known: The French DO NOT know how to fight! They couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag!

(ah yes, a lovely stereotype that'll surely get Jean Claude Van Damme unleashed on my punk-ass).

Second, while the UN is certainly an important organization, saying that your foreign policy needs to ultimately be dictated by some defunct, beaurocratic organization (i.e. you must ask for permission to defend yourself) is simply foolish talk. If somebody breaks into your house and is about to attack your children, do you politely ask them to please wait until you can get the OK from Interpol to step in and defend your children?

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Originally posted by occrider Clearly there is an appropriate balance between the two. We've seen some of the more catastrophic failures of inaction perpetrated by Europe throughout the past century and we've clearly seen the failures of American overreaction. Neither in itself can be said to be the "correct" approach.

Agree.

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Originally posted by Shakka First of all, Vietnam taught us something about France that was already extremely well known: The French DO NOT know how to fight! They couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag!

Who cares about the French, we still had no reason to bother with Vietnam.

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Originally posted by Shakka (ah yes, a lovely stereotype that'll surely get Jean Claude Van Damme unleashed on my punk-ass).

LOL

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Originally posted by Shakka Second, while the UN is certainly an important organization, saying that your foreign policy needs to ultimately be dictated by some defunct, beaurocratic organization (i.e. you must ask for permission to defend yourself) is simply foolish talk. If somebody breaks into your house and is about to attack your children, do you politely ask them to please wait until you can get the OK from Interpol to step in and defend your children?

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Originally posted by rizo UN RESOLUTION! NOT US RESOLUTION! Where are the 200-500 Tons of mustard gas and chemical weapons?

While I am all for defending yourself, Saddam possed a zero threat. When China starts invading Hawaii, please let me know and I'll be the first to sign up.

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Originally posted by Eye-Q Shoot first, ask later...

I think if you read my post you'd see that I said *after* diplomacy fails or shows itself to be ineffective action is needed.

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So, attacking is realistic...

Much more realistic in my opinion then hoping that diplomacy will always provide a peaceful outcome. As long as we have irrational humans (post-enlightment thinking, hint, hint), we will have disagreements only solved by fighting.

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Such a bullshit!!!! That is the reason why 'we' try to negotiate! In WWI people went to the battlefields thinking going to picnic and return in max 2 weeks as heroes. But with WW2 you are partly right! But this was a special case..! Europeans were afraid of a second great war and the horrible experiences from WWI whereas the US never experienced the cruelties of wars in their own country (except the civil war)!

Yes, and their *inaction* prior to WWII is what made it that much worse than WWI. If they would have stopped Hitler after his first incursions into neighboring states, before he could have built his military-industrial complex, do you think it would have been nearly as bad?

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Originally posted by rizen Pretty sure international coalition = UN.

LINKY

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But no council action is expected, despite the fact that the United States and France are already engaged in talks on whether an international force should be dispatched to the country.

So now what? We again do nothing as Haiti destorys itself yet again?

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You're at moment sitting around.

Well, not everyone can join the armed forces. However, if my country called me to duty, I would not hestiate for a second. Call me naive or a helpless romantic, but thousands of Americans have died for my freedom as well as the freedom of others. As fucked up as America is, I cannot think of another place that enjoys what Americans do. I would die for it, just as those before me have. And I would die so that others may enjoy the same freedom, just as Americans did in WWI, WWII, Vietnam and today in Iraq.

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Who cares about the French, we still had no reason to bother with Vietnam.

We had been their with France in an advisory role since 1955...or are we not suppossed to support our allies? We showed support in WWI, WWII, Korea and the first Gulf War for our allies, although France sure didn't prior to the latest Gulf War.



Again, as I said before...I'm not all about just going in with guns ablaze. What I am for is the realization that not all issues can be solved diplomatically. There is a time and a place for action. America may be a little quick to the fight, but Europe makes up for it with their "hands-off" approach to seemingly every situation.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono LINKY So now what? We again do nothing as Haiti destorys itself yet again?

Clinton put Aristide in office in the first place so it's our mess all over again. I say let them do watever they want.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Well, not everyone can join the armed forces. However, if my country called me to duty, I would not hestiate for a second. Call me naive or a helpless romantic, but thousands of Americans have died for my freedom as well as the freedom of others. As fucked up as America is, I cannot think of another place that enjoys what Americans do.

Neatherlands.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I would die for it, just as those before me have. And I would die so that others may enjoy the same freedom, just as Americans did in WWI, WWII, Vietnam and today in Iraq.

ROFL , thanks you've made my day.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono We had been their with France in an advisory role since 1955...or are we not suppossed to support our allies? We showed support in WWI, WWII, Korea and the first Gulf War for our allies, although France sure didn't prior to the latest Gulf War.

No, I think its the oppiste, we didn't show support to our allies, the UN and most of the world. The latest gulf war is one FU by holyburton and PNAC.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Again, as I said before...I'm not all about just going in with guns ablaze. What I am for is the realization that not all issues can be solved diplomatically. There is a time and a place for action. America may be a little quick to the fight, but Europe makes up for it with their "hands-off" approach to seemingly every situation.

Diplomacy worked in Iraq, yet we still attacked

quote:

Originally posted by rizen No, I think its the oppiste, we didn't show support to our allies, the UN and most of the world. The latest gulf war is one FU by holyburton and PNAC.

And where, praytell did we not support our allies? Bosnia...no, the first Gulf War...no, Somalia...no, WWII...no. So where was it that we didn't "support" our allies?

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Diplomacy worked in Iraq, yet we still attacked

Now you've made my day.

What exactly does "worked" mean to you? Iraq obeying UN resolutions against it...that didn't happen. Iraq allowing unfettered access to weapons inspectors...that didn't happen. Iraq handing over *truthful* documentation of its weapons and weapons programs...that didn't happen. Iraq using the UN oil for food program for the good of its people instead of its leaders...that didn't happen either. I'm dying to hear where the "diplomatic success" took place in the decade after the first Gulf War, I'm really not finding any.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono And where, praytell did we not support our allies? Bosnia...no, the first Gulf War...no, Somalia...no, WWII...no. So where was it that we didn't "support" our allies?

I was referring to the latest Iraq invasion and occupation.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Now you've made my day. What exactly does "worked" mean to you? Iraq obeying UN resolutions against it...that didn't happen. Iraq allowing unfettered access to weapons inspectors...that didn't happen. Iraq handing over *truthful* documentation of its weapons and weapons programs...that didn't happen. Iraq using the UN oil for food program for the good of its people instead of its leaders...that didn't happen either. I'm dying to hear where the "diplomatic success" took place in the decade after the first Gulf War, I'm really not finding any.

We havnt found the 200+ tons of mustard gas or any other WMDs, the reason we went in the first place.

Granted 'French War Heroes' is the thinnest book in the Library, but I do believe we should fully embrace their liberal views of the world with an appropriate and significant gesture of moving the UN Headquarters from New York to Paris, France!!! The UN would have a more appropriate atmosphere in the heart of their liberal indecisive society and America wouldn't have to foot the bill for their existence.


[[[smoke]]]

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I cannot think of another place that enjoys what Americans do.

And what is it that you enjoy. Your education system? Your health care system? Your civil liberties?

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Originally posted by NeoPhono As fucked up as America is, I cannot think of another place that enjoys what Americans do.

Really?

Name one thing that Americans enjoy that I (as an Australian) do not. We have a democratic government, less influence of religion on government than in the US, a strong economy, a tolerant & peaceful society, need I go on? In fact, I would actually prefer to live here than in the US. If I was to be given the opportunity of being reborn in a country of my choice, I would probably choose here or New Zealand, followed by Canada or France. I'm not trying to nitpick here, but statements such as the one you made above really irritate me. Believe it or not, there are other western nations that enjoy the same freedoms and liberties that you do.

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Originally posted by Shakka First of all, Vietnam taught us something about France that was already extremely well known: The French DO NOT know how to fight! They couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag! (ah yes, a lovely stereotype that'll surely get Jean Claude Van Damme unleashed on my punk-ass).

Van Damme is Belgian, not French. So you are ok on that.

On the topic. I don't mind europeans in general. While I have never been to Europe I would like to go and see things (and be served a beer by a busty bavarian serving girl ).

I tend to see the American/European comparisons as diffficult and tend to find them unproductve.

A lot of people do not care for the French because they are protrayed in the media as being cultural elitists who look down their noses at any art/food/creative thing that is not French in origin (and many of the French people you meet will back up the idea).

I will say these things about Europe:

I prefer Scandanavian furniture design over other types for my home.

I think the lack of puritanical sexual repression in Europe is a good thing. (Seeing a boob on TV should not be considered an affront to society )

I prefer German beer.

That is my take on Europeans. I need more first hand evidence to really have a more informed view.

And Heinz.....you are in Florida. Do not make generalizations of all of the US by one state, especially one that is that screwy. I think both my list of places that "don't count" and occrider's probably include Florida. I cannot think of a single remotely sane person I have ever met who came from Florida. (A generalization of my own but it is backed up by experience). One thing you can be correct about is the deterioration of the American school system. But that is for another discussion.

MrS

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Originally posted by rizen ROFL , thanks you've made my day.

i don't get whats so funny.
I would think anyone who appreciates their homeland would give it all up to know it would secure a better future. this goes for the population of any country.

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Originally posted by Shakka First of all, Vietnam taught us something about France that was already extremely well known: The French DO NOT know how to fight! They couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag!

Unlike the mighty american forces who utterly defeated the Vietcong army, right?

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Originally posted by djSlain i don't get whats so funny. I would think anyone who appreciates their homeland would give it all up to know it would secure a better future. this goes for the population of any country.

Iraq or Vietnam were never a threat.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Unlike the mighty american forces who utterly defeated the Vietcong army, right?

We took out Saddam's super chemical equipped army

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Originally posted by dj adagnitio And what is it that you enjoy. Your education system? Your health care system? Your civil liberties?

Out post seconday education system is second to none. We have students from all over the world come to our colleges. Our health care system is the same. I work at a cancer hospital where our clientele is international. I have had patients from Saudi Arabia, England, South America and Asia that all say the same thing, the quality of health care in the USA is not found anywhere else. We may not have socialized medicine, but that does not mean anything as far as quality is concerned.

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Originally posted by arctic Name one thing that Americans enjoy that I (as an Australian) do not. We have a democratic government, less influence of religion on government than in the US, a strong economy, a tolerant & peaceful society, need I go on? In fact, I would actually prefer to live here than in the US. If I was to be given the opportunity of being reborn in a country of my choice, I would probably choose here or New Zealand, followed by Canada or France. I'm not trying to nitpick here, but statements such as the one you made above really irritate me. Believe it or not, there are other western nations that enjoy the same freedoms and liberties that you do.

Your country may enjoy the same freedoms as America, I agree. However when it comes to world influence in culture, politics and economics, I am sorry but America is second to none. I would also agrue that the potential to achieve success in America is also higher. As I just said, we have the best colleges in the world, followed by more Fortune 500 companies, and more millionaires/billionaires then any other country in the world. You can argue the evils of our non-socialized system, but I can argue the benefits.

The US has always had about the same amount of religious influence on its government as it does today, and like it or not, America is the only superpower. If you're equating strength of economy to quality of life, its hard for me to believe that you could ignore the strength of the US economy. The US economy dictates the world economy, I cannot think of another economy with such weight. Sure, we may have our recessions, but our recissions are world recessions.



Other countries may share similar freedoms as America does, I will not deny that. What they do lack is the cultural, political and economic influence that the only remaining superpower has. Like it or not, there is a reason Americans are so ethnocentric, for most the rest of the world does not have much bearing on their daily lives. A new president in Canada or Australia will probably not have a noticable effect on the average American. However due to the influence of America, the election of a new American president I would argue has a much greater effect on other countries of the world. This is what other countries do not share, America's influence.

I think this is probably one reason we had so much international uprising during the second Gulf War. America has been in a position of solitary world dominance for two decades since the end of the cold war, but that was really the first time where America decided to act unilaterally on a large scale. I can see where for past world powers, with history rich in the kind of dominance that America now enjoys, this would be threatening and perhaps even humiliating. So when France and Germany decided to not support America, I can kind of empathize. They saw the world superpower, once content to act internationally, take it upon itself to act unilaterally when those lines of international communication failed. This again showing my difference between the two continents; Americans are not afraid to act, alone when needed.

35 million people living below the poverty level can't go wrong, america truly is the land of opportunity

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Originally posted by tathi 35 million people living below the poverty level can't go wrong, america truly is the land of opportunity

35 Million people with cell phones living below the poverty line.

Where exactly did you get that statistic?

Neophono: Just because the world is highly dependent on you economy doesn't that mean that you are the best, you are certainly the biggest, but not the best. There is no western world country that comes close to your population, therefore you also have the strongest economy, the best collage, the best hospital etc. But what many countries have that you haven't is really good overall system that everyone can benefit of. take for example the health care, here is a ranking list (done by Ellen Nolte and Martin McKee from London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine studing the WHO list but they have also taken to account what the hostpitals really can do (for example if you have many car accidents in one country, the hostpials cannot really do much about it but they will get worse ranking in the who sytem, but not this...)) of the best health care systems in the world:

1. Sweden
2. Norway
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. France
6. Germany
7. Spain
8. Finland
9. Italy
10. Denmark
11. Netherlands
12. Greece
13. Japan
14. Austria
15. New Zeland
16. USA
17. Irland
18. Great Britain
19. Portugal

i tried to also find the original WHO report, but didn't find it, but the USA isn't any better there according to the article i read, the only mayor differences are that Japan, Italy and Greece was losing some places. but countries as Sweden (nr 4 before), Norway, Canada and Germany was gaining places.

Same goes with you school system, it really do suck if you think of all the bad ones (collages is perhaps another discussion but before that you are really third world!).

And how come that almost every investigation that takes something else than GDP into account places USA far below most other west countries, and places the nordic countries, australia/new zeland, most european countries at the top?

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Originally posted by Shakka 35 Million people with cell phones living below the poverty line. Where exactly did you get that statistic?

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-19.pdf 33.9 million (12.4% of the US population), 1999.

here is how they count that: http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/povdef.html

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