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-- Got a letter from Bush !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Marriage isn't man made. Even if it was, sexual relations outside of marriage still isn't safe.

What about when marriage is polygamous?

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It's a nickname for Richard,get your mind out of the gutter.

J-O-K-E

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Let me tell you something,if you didn't already know. Saddam was killing his OWN people. We went in so that could stop. Yes, civilians were killed in the war. But, that was totally not on purpose. It's happened in every war.

Do you know who sold him that gas??? The weapons used to kill his "own people", as well as hundreds of thousands of iranian soldiers over a useless 8 year war?

Thats right Nellie... Good ol U S of A!!!!!

And after he finished killing the Kurds... the Reagan administration sold him MORE of that gas!!!!

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If you want to talk about killing Civilians,what about when Clinton had the cruise missle sent off, and hit and Asprin Factory?

Bush and CO. have and are doing far worse with their indirect influences

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Remind me, What happened on 9/11? What about those 3,000 civilians?

So this is a revenge thing now??? lets attack the whole islamic/arab world for something 19 Saudi fundementalists did.

Might I add that your wonderful president, while enforcing the NO FLY policy, privately flew out memebers of the house of saud right after the attacks before the FBI could get their hands on them.

Hmmmm... I wonder why he needed them out quickly????

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They never lied about anything.

Then where are the weapons???? Rememeber.... there was "PROOF" that Bush had that saddam had these weapons???? where is this... he was so certain that weapons existed.

You should also know that Paul wolfowits proclaimed the WMD fiasco as a "CONVENIENT EXCUSE"

Read a little more than the bible in your spare time.


and i thought you couldnt get more ignorant

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Do you know who sold him that gas??? The weapons used to kill his "own people", as well as hundreds of thousands of iranian soldiers over a useless 8 year war? Thats right Nellie... Good ol U S of A!!!!!

so is Ruger (a pistol & gun company) responsible for all the murders that have happened through use of their guns?

dude you cant blame the US for the actions of Saddam. thats like me being blamed for committing fraud by allowing my brother to use a graphic calculator which he then used to cheat on his math exam.

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Originally posted by Izzy so is Ruger (a pistol & gun company) responsible for all the murders that have happened through use of their guns? dude you cant blame the US for the actions of Saddam. thats like me being blamed for committing fraud by allowing my brother to use a graphic calculator which he then used to cheat on his math exam.

Knowing that MUSTARD gas is used to KILL, why else do you think the US govt would have wanted to sell this to Saddam?
And the watching those people die.... they sell him MORE!

What kind of disgusting people are these to turn their backs after they witness this mass slaughter and then assure him that he has more to use!

I BLAME BOTH

If I knew those kids at Columbine wanted to kill people at school and I gave them those guns to do it... I AM RESPONSIBLE AS WELL

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Knowing that MUSTARD gas is used to KILL, why else do you think the US govt would have wanted to sell this to Saddam? And the watching those people die.... they sell him MORE! What kind of disgusting people are these to turn their backs after they witness this mass slaughter and then assure him that he has more to use! I BLAME BOTH If I knew those kids at Columbine wanted to kill people at school and I gave them those guns to do it... I AM RESPONSIBLE AS WELL

point taken, but only as long as you also hold france, germany and russia to the same level of responsibilty as the US. those countries sold as much or more chemical grade material and weapons to iraq than america did. i remember occrider posting exact figures about this a few months ago.

furthermore also not that at the time the US wanted iraq to beat iran in its war. it was widely known that iran was an enemy to the US after the contra affiar

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Originally posted by Cyrus King If I knew those kids at Columbine wanted to kill people at school and I gave them those guns to do it... I AM RESPONSIBLE AS WELL

but how did the USA 'know' they were going to use it?

the USA sells Saudia Arabia tanks, you think it does this because it wants them to use tanks?

Corner stores sell beer, do you think they should be repsonsible if somebody bought a six-pack drank it all in one second and died?


Thats right... I'm back from the weekend

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Marriage isn't man made. Even if it was, sexual relations outside of marriage still isn't safe.

Just because you say it is doesn't mean that it is. FFS, stop making unsupported assertions and back up what you say. Regardless of your beliefs when it comes to religious marriage (it's important to distinguish between a state-sanctioned civil marriage, and a religious marriage, whether it be Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindi or whatever), surely you can acknowledge that civil marriages are man made? After all, would your omniscient deity sanction or create a civil marriage contract that allows homosexuals to get hitched?

As for your absurd assertion that sex outside marriage isn't safe, back that up please. Firstly, how do you define safe. Secondly, ever heard of contraception? You know, the pill, condoms and so on. Those pesky things.

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It's a nickname for Richard,get your mind out of the gutter.

For heavens sake has god outlawed humour as well? Aren't Christians allowed to laugh anymore?

Actually, the word dick is a commonly used abbreviation for penis. Yes, some people called Richard choose to abbreviate it to dick, but others do not, and prefer Rick, or simply Richard. Here's an idea. Head to a shopping mall, and loudly yell 'dick'. Observe how people react. Most likely they'll immediately assume that you're referring to male genitalia, as opposed to a friend who happens to be called dick.

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Let me tell you something,if you didn't already know. Saddam was killing his OWN people. We went in so that could stop.

Wrong. Whist Saddam did indeed kill his own people, that certainly isn't why the US went to war. Remember that whole 'WMD' thing? Yeah, that's right, the entire justification for invading Iraq. If the US had explicitly said they were heading in to liberate Iraq, then maybe we wouldn't be here discussing this. But as it stands, i don't think any rational person believes that the US administration had the Iraqi civilians in mind when the planned the invasion. Personally I think it was for strategic reasons (i.e. - getting a foothold in the middle east). If you can show me that Bush consistently used 'freeing the Iraqi people' as a justification before the apparent non existence of WMDs became an issue, then I'll consider conceding on this one.

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Yes, civilians were killed in the war. But, that was totally not on purpose. It's happened in every war.

Yes, civilians died. I never claimed that specific civilian deaths were on purpose, evidently the US will try to avoid them. Firstly, it's bad PR if too many people die, and secondly, there might be the odd instance of one of them actually caring about killing people.
Agreed, it has happened in any war. Therefore, the US administration knew very well that they were going to kill a significant number of people (read: thousands) before they attacked. When this is examined in light of the WMD fiasco, one can't help but wonder if the US administration really gave a shit about the people that it killed.

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If you want to talk about killing Civilians,what about when Clinton had the cruise missle sent off, and hit and Asprin Factory?

I condemn Clinton's actions as well. I can't see what relevance it has here though, since I've never claimed that Clinton was in the right with what he did. Another thing to consider here is the magnitude of the events. The Iraq war is clearly more significant, as it's a full scale invasion of another sovereign nation.

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Remind me, What happened on 9/11? What about those 3,000 civilians?

Ugh, here we go again. Some people really have to learn to stop justifying everything with 9/11. 9/11 had absolutely nothing to do with the war on Iraq. In case you've forgotten already, that was Afghanistan. Not to take away from the significance of 9/11, but it really does pale into comparison when you compare it to some of the things that occur in Africa and so on.

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They never lied about anything.

So you believe that Iraq was a direct threat to the US and it's allies then? Come on, get real.


Izzy: Fair enough, point taken. I guess I'm coming at it more from a 'If the war had never taken place in the first place, then none of them would be dead' point of view.

That being said, it's only natural that civilian casualties are likely to decrease as technology advances, and as weaponry and/or targeting becomes more precise. The Iraq war was also significantly 'smaller' than other wars, as Saddam's army didn't put up as much of a fight as first anticipated. I think that factors such as these also contributed to the lower civilian casualty figures. Hey, it's not like it used to be, 'drop a few bombs and hope they hit something'.

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Originally posted by Yoepus the USA sells Saudia Arabia tanks, you think it does this because it wants them to use tanks?

Re: Got a letter from Bush !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by hardstyle John Kerry has a record of raising taxes, cutting defense spending, and plans for new regulations and more litigation that would make America less safe and send our nation back to the tired, failed policies of the past. Kerry has repeatedly voted to cut funding for defense and intelligence, voted to cancel the very weapons systems that are winning the war on terror and maintaining our military strength, and he has voted against common-sense tax relief like the marriage penalty and the death tax. [/SIZE]

Bush SPENT the entire surplus on tax cuts and dug us into a $500 billion+ deficit with the same. Politicians need to make some HARD decisions and stop appealing to the public interest, cause there is no money left to do that, it's all spent.

There is no reason to reduce taxes, we have almost the lowest tax rate in the world. What is the point in having a government that cant function due to insufficient funding? Call Machiavelli quick, our government needs some juice.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 If you want to talk about killing Civilians,what about when Clinton had the cruise missle sent off, and hit and Asprin Factory?

Unlike the Bush apologists, you'll never see me defending every single thing Clinton did wrong.

I notice that as a difference between liberals and conservatives.

Speaking in generalities, liberals seem to love America like an adult, realizing her cracks and faults that need patching, and conservatives love America like a four year old who thinks Momma could never do anything wrong.

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 sexual relations outside of marriage still isn't safe.

That's exactly why we should allow gays who want to have a committed, monogamous, lifelong relationship to marry.

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Originally posted by DaveSZ That's exactly why we should allow gays who want to have a committed, monogamous, lifelong relationship to marry.

We're just looking out for their safety!

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Originally posted by nic01445 We're just looking out for their safety!

Hey, I'm just preachin' the gospel man.

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Originally posted by arctic Hey, it's not like it used to be, 'drop a few bombs and hope they hit something'.

[nostalgia] ahhh those were the good'ol days [/nostalgia]

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Originally posted by arctic Just because you say it is doesn't mean that it is. FFS, stop making unsupported assertions and back up what you say. Regardless of your beliefs when it comes to religious marriage (it's important to distinguish between a state-sanctioned civil marriage, and a religious marriage, whether it be Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindi or whatever), surely you can acknowledge that civil marriages are man made? After all, would your omniscient deity sanction or create a civil marriage contract that allows homosexuals to get hitched? As for your absurd assertion that sex outside marriage isn't safe, back that up please. Firstly, how do you define safe. Secondly, ever heard of contraception? You know, the pill, condoms and so on. Those pesky things.

I'm not going to go into this with you.I just don't have the patience for it right now.

But, I do have a friend who is 19 years old, She has a year old son,and a daughter on the way. She was using protection,including the pill..and she has two children. She's extremely emotionally messed up because the guy she was sleeping with is in jail now, so she's left raising children on her own. Those are only a few of the side effects of sex before marriage.

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For heavens sake has god outlawed humour as well? Aren't Christians allowed to laugh anymore?

Dick is what my grandfather goes by. His name is Richard.

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Actually, the word dick is a commonly used abbreviation for penis. Yes, some people called Richard choose to abbreviate it to dick, but others do not, and prefer Rick, or simply Richard. Here's an idea. Head to a shopping mall, and loudly yell 'dick'. Observe how people react. Most likely they'll immediately assume that you're referring to male genitalia, as opposed to a friend who happens to be called dick.

I'm not stupid, I know what you were refering to.

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Wrong. Whist Saddam did indeed kill his own people, that certainly isn't why the US went to war.

One of the reasons, We are liberators here in the US. Not oppressors.

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Remember that whole 'WMD' thing? Yeah, that's right, the entire justification for invading Iraq.

Was not, and I still believe there are WMD's there. There's many reasons we went into Iraq. Of course you'll never believe that because you don't want to.so let's drop it.

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If the US had explicitly said they were heading in to liberate Iraq, then maybe we wouldn't be here discussing this. But as it stands, i don't think any rational person believes that the US administration had the Iraqi civilians in mind when the planned the invasion. Personally I think it was for strategic reasons (i.e. - getting a foothold in the middle east). If you can show me that Bush consistently used 'freeing the Iraqi people' as a justification before the apparent non existence of WMDs became an issue, then I'll consider conceding on this one.

We care about the civilians,and we wanted to help them. That's just what we did. They were/are happy about it to.
And don't go tell me they weren't, There were hundreds of troops that wrote back to their families telling their families how many civilians came up to them and thanked them and hugged them for freeing them from Saddam. We're speaking of thousands of civilians doing this.
Of course you don't see this on the news,Media only shows us what it wants us to see.

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When this is examined in light of the WMD fiasco, one can't help but wonder if the US administration really gave a shit about the people that it killed.

Of course the Administration cared.They aren't heartless you know.

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Ugh, here we go again. Some people really have to learn to stop justifying everything with 9/11. 9/11 had absolutely nothing to do with the war on Iraq. In case you've forgotten already, that was Afghanistan. Not to take away from the significance of 9/11, but it really does pale into comparison when you compare it to some of the things that occur in Africa and so on.

Yes, It did. Terrorism, is what made 9/11 happen.Have you forgotten already?

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Marriage isn't man made. Even if it was, sexual relations outside of marriage still isn't safe.

Marraige isn't man made? Are you trying to say that marraige is from the sanctity of Christianity? Once again, I am forced to bring up that people were around a long time before religions came into play, and there were "marraiges" or "unions" or "couples". Mind you, just because you're married doesn't necessarily suddenly make sexual relations safe. What if your husband cheats on you and gets Herpes or AIDS? Then you're SOL.

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It's a nickname for Richard,get your mind out of the gutter.

As Cyrus said (Happy Birthday again Cyrus! ), It was a joke.

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Let me tell you something,if you didn't already know. Saddam was killing his OWN people.

So were many other leaders in the history of mankind. I have a question, if he accepts Jesus into his heart before he dies, does he go to heaven?

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We went in so that could stop.

Actually, the "War on Terror" was begun on the search for WMD's, not necessarily to stop him from killing his own people. (That was just a bonus)

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Yes, civilians were killed in the war. But, that was totally not on purpose.

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It's happened in every war.

The first think you've ever said that I agree with.

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If you want to talk about killing Civilians,what about when Clinton had the cruise missle sent off, and hit and Asprin Factory?

Or how about when the United States and UK decided to bomb RESIDENTIAL areas of Germany in WWII just for revenge?

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Remind me, What happened on 9/11? What about those 3,000 civilians?

Remind me, was it not BIN LADEN, and not SADDAM that was behind those terrorist attacks?

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They never lied about anything.

You've been brainwashed to think that.

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But, I do have a friend who is 19 years old, She has a year old son,and a daughter on the way. She was using protection,including the pill..and she has two children. She's extremely emotionally messed up because the guy she was sleeping with is in jail now, so she's left raising children on her own. Those are only a few of the side effects of sex before marriage.

I love how you always use instances of aquaintences vs actual reality. Just because you know someone that something happened to, doesn't mean it happens all over the world.

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One of the reasons, We are liberators here in the US. Not oppressors.

No, it's not. Go research some. The reason the war on terror was launched with the invasion of Iraq was because of the suspicion of WMD's.

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Was not, and I still believe there are WMD's there. There's many reasons we went into Iraq. Of course you'll never believe that because you don't want to.so let's drop it.

I think you need to do some research. Hey, how about I be like you and use this: I have friends in the army, and they're in Iraq. They tell me all the time how all of the generals sneer because there are no WMDs. Hence, there MUST be NO WMDs!

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We care about the civilians,and we wanted to help them. That's just what we did. They were/are happy about it to. And don't go tell me they weren't, There were hundreds of troops that wrote back to their families telling their families how many civilians came up to them and thanked them and hugged them for freeing them from Saddam. We're speaking of thousands of civilians doing this. Of course you don't see this on the news,Media only shows us what it wants us to see

Actually, that's all the news shows us. Perhaps you should turn on the TV. Do you honestly think that they want the citizens of America to think that an entire country is pissed off that it's there? Of course not. Once again, I have many friends that are in Iraq. I'm not saying there aren't citizens of that country that are grateful that we are there, but it's not like there are none that are pissed off that we are.

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Originally posted by Yoepus but how did the USA 'know' they were going to use it? the USA sells Saudia Arabia tanks, you think it does this because it wants them to use tanks?

Please dont give me that excuse... the US knew Saddam had a track record of killing people in the tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands. But they still sold it to him. Do you honestly think the sold it to him not knowing why he would need it?????

Its like giving a mass murderer more knives to use before he went on his killing spree... and saying that you didnt know that he would go and kill people, even though you knew he was known for it.

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Corner stores sell beer, do you think they should be repsonsible if somebody bought a six-pack drank it all in one second and died?

If the store sold it to a drunk person, or someone they knew was going to go out and drive drunk and potentially kill soimeone.. then yes.. they are partly repsonisible.

Its like being a waiter.. if you give a customer too much alcohol or sell it to underaged individuals, and they step into their car and kill someone... that waiter will get in alot of shit! I should know.. i worked for Red Lobster and that was something they enforced greatly.

Essentially, it comes down to who the person is that matters.

They werent selling this to the Dalai Lama

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Originally posted by Cyrus King i worked for Red Lobster and that was something they enforced greatly.

I worked for Ruby Tuesday, R Bistro, and HOPS.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Its like being a waiter.. if you give a customer too much alcohol or sell it to underaged individuals, and they step into their car and kill someone... that waiter will get in alot of shit! I should know.. i worked for Red Lobster and that was something they enforced greatly. Essentially, it comes down to who the person is that matters. They werent selling this to the Dalai Lama

This sounds like the diametrical opposite of the caricature anti-war protestors made of Saddam... "He has no WMD, he would never use WMD... etc etc.."

But when the USA sold him WMD, he would use it, but when the USA was about to attack, he would never use it? hmmm

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