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-- Kill them while you can - the JEWS are taking over! AHHHaha
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quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I think the reason there are more Jewish Nobel Prize winners is merely because of where they live. Most Jews live in the western world, and if I'm not mistaken, are most Nobel Prize winners not also from the western world? Muslims, on the other hand, mostly live in the third world, and correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there only gonna be a few winners from that region of the Earth?

For reference:

USA:
5.2 million jews (link)
3.5 million arabs (link)

Canada:
350,000 jews (link)
300,000 arabs (link)

I'm finding it hard to get numbers in any European countries, but that's a starting point. It doesn't seem to support your assertion.

Regardless, I think the whole point of this thread was a slant at the Arab nations, not the Arab race or ethnicity. I could be wrong, but I think the problem as stated (not by myself) was stated to be with Islamic Arabs in the UAE and the Middle East and so on, not with Chrstian or Jewish or other Arabs living in the USA or western Europe.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I'm finding it hard to get numbers in any European countries, but that's a starting point. It doesn't seem to support your assertion.

Good point. Last time I heard the Euro numbers Arabs were a considerably higher population than Jews, to a factor of 2 to 1.

The largest Jewish community is in France, which is about 100k-300k and the Arab population there is at least have a mil.

quote:

Regardless, I think the whole point of this thread was a slant at the Arab nations, not the Arab race or ethnicity. I could be wrong, but I think the problem as stated (not by myself) was stated to be with Islamic Arabs in the UAE and the Middle East and so on, not with Chrstian or Jewish or other Arabs living in the USA or western Europe.

I don't know if this was the point of the initial post. As it did mention Arabs vs. Jews basically. However, I think this is the argument it has turned into, namely "Why are Arab nations so backwards?"

Also what Georgey stated above regarding "wealth and education" isn't always true, as many of the Israeli prize winners won their prizes before Israel was a frist rate country. Second, I am sure if you look but Indian and Chinese prize winners would out win the Arabs, even if you accomadate for population. From my understanding, Arab prize winners would be 1 in 100 million. Israel has at least 8 in 4 million, or 1 every half a million.

I donna know about India or China, but there are other measurements of scientific inventiveness and educaiton than simple nobel prize winnings (this would be like counting oscar winning nations for prowess in theatre).

There are literacy levels (which the Arab world is quiet high in, of course this is typically because of the religious requirement that all Arabs must be able to read the Koran), there are book publishing (new books coming to print each year), books translated from english, copyrights and trademarks (new trademarks everyyear), patents, % of high school graduates, % college eduated, % PhDs.. etc...

In almost all these categories (aside from literacy) the Arab world has a large gap even on many third-world naitons.

in other news, Mongoloids have IQs on average 10% higher than Caucasoids ;o

nobody is saying that race x is more intellegent then race y. as human beings we all have the same capability to win nobel prizes and such. what's at issue here is that the arab society and culture is less promoting of values such as education.

when you look at it logically it kinda makes sense. winning a nobel means your at the forefront of science, you are innovating, progressing beyond the known limits, discovering new things... these principles are the opposite of that of fundamental religion which for the most part is very anti-change. Arab culture and way of life is still similar to that which has exsisted for the past centuries. It is sad thought that along the way they have lost the drive and pursuit of modern education

imo, education, or the lack thereof in arab countries is one of the most important factors, if not the biggest one, that have led to this new islamo-facsit movement and terrorism.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 ...a nonsensical ramble called the Kuran.

I suppose you've read it then?
In Arabic?... as Arabic poetic metaphor (which most of the Qur'an is written in) usually suffers heavily during translation.



On another note Camus was born in Algeria.

Thank you that is all.

why r we only judging by the nobel prizes? i think the arab world contributed alot to the science we know today..alexandria was the center of knowledge and the alexandria library is the biggest in the world..2 of the worlds 7 wonders r in egypt..arab scientists and explorers contributed alot to chemistry n geometry n physics..they built the base for alot of we know today..so i think arabs contirbuted alot to the world...the reason the arab world is lacking now is that the great brains dont get support or funding like israel does..all the great arab minds u will find in somewhere else in europe or the us or asia or whatever..most of em leave thier countries to try to find a better chance.

quote:

Originally posted by tranceaholic why r we only judging by the nobel prizes? i think the arab world contributed alot to the science we know today..alexandria was the center of knowledge and the alexandria library is the biggest in the world..2 of the worlds 7 wonders r in egypt..arab scientists and explorers contributed alot to chemistry n geometry n physics..they built the base for alot of we know today..so i think arabs contirbuted alot to the world...the reason the arab world is lacking now is that the great brains dont get support or funding like israel does..all the great arab minds u will find in somewhere else in europe or the us or asia or whatever..most of em leave thier countries to try to find a better chance.

Nobody denied that the Arab world made great contributions to science and technology in historic times. In fact I believe it has already been mentioned in this thread.

Unfortunately you are (not surprisingly) lacking evidence to support your assertion that the current state is due to a "lack of funding". That logic is at best dubious, but more like blatantly fallacious, since more than a few Arab countries are filthy rich from their oil. It's what they do with the money that's the problem.

I have a feeling that a lot of Arabs are going to take this thread personally, and in a way I can't really blame them, but you really should understand that nobody is putting down Arabs as a race - just highlighting some of the problems with the Arabic nations.

And I agree that Nobel prize winners are not exactly the best indicator (although it should be somewhat startling that so many Jews win it, since Jews comprise only a tiny fraction of the industrialized first world). I personally welcome anyone to present other indicators that might reflect a "healthy" situation - however, I think you may be disappointed with what you find (or don't find). Most of us can agree that there is indeed some problem - we just disagree on what's causing it.

Arab Unity and Democracy - a threat to US interests

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Please point out my racism. I might not be as "politically correct" as you would like, but I don't think I am being racist. I am simply stating that Arabs (and yes I am generalizing here on purpose) aren't very educated. I just think that your racist against all Jews envious of all their nobel prizeses Great, so now what you are basically telling me is that the Arabs have almost no nobel prize winners. Thanks for reinforcing our point Also when I was generalizing Arabs, I didn't specify religion. However, I do believe Lebanon, before its civil war did have a substantially higher living quality than its fellow Arab neighbors. Of course, its always someone else fault. Its never ever your own fault. I agree 100% I just stole thousands of dollars via tax evasion, but its ok I blame the government for oppressing me in the first place Ok please help me understand your logic. Democracy in the Arab world is a threat to US and Israeli interest why? Because when the Arabs are in control of their own oil, they won't sell it the USA and Israel? What will they do then, keep it all to themselves? Might want to work on that theory a bit. Now heres my primary counter argument. If it is Israel and the USA primary that have repressed Arab society into its ignorance, than how come we see that in the very areas that Israel and the USA are involved in that you have the highest level of educated Arabs and liberties? In Israel, Arabs today are extremlly well-off and educated compared to their counterparts around Arabia. Even in the Occupied territories, before the dictatorship of Yasser Arafat was installed (and this is one incident I will admit there was an Israel/USA appointed dictator) the prosperity, education, and liberty levels of Palestinains was much better off than their cousins in Arab nations. The USA hasn't been very involved in the middle east. However its recent expedition into Iraq promises the middle east its first true Arab democracy. Currently Iraqis enjoy some of the highest liberties among Arabs, with free access education, health, power, equal rights, and soon to enjoy sufferage for women and men. Perhaps your "intellectuals" are doing a positive thing for Arab democracy. But I can't see a more prospering, positive movement for Arab liberty than the current USA led project in Iraq. If it doesn't suceed, it will be a great tradegy, and the biggest step back to democracy and liberty in the middle east, not the biggest triumph for it. Even the enemies of the USA admit that.

You have many well educated Arabs all over the world. You shouldn't be evaluating them on how many Nobel Prizes Arabs have won. That's very very stupid. Basically you're saying that Arabs haven't won as many Nobel Prizes as Jews; therefore Arabs aren't very educated.

Illan's stats spoke of the Global Islamic Population but only listed Arabs. What about all the Muslims who are non-Arab? They were not included in the stats. Maybe if they were, there would be more Muslim names on that list. And if there isn't, you still have to remember that the majority of the world's Muslims live in less-developed countries. I also want you to know that many Arabs and Muslims have complained of bias against them in Western societies when it comes to evaluating them and their acheivements. I don't know the legitimacy of it, but I hear it a lot.

I would like to point out that Arabs have contributed immensely to the world. The father of Algebra was an Arab. Much of modern medicine came from Arab innovation in the past. There's a lot out there that exists today because of previous Arab contribution. The culture and the Islamic religion aren't the main problem in the lack of development and democracy in the Middle East. Tribalism is a factor, and so is integration of religion and state in Islam. But these aren't the only factors involved.

Intellectual movements in the Middle East are nothing new. Democracy is not alien to the Arabs. They know what it is and crave it. But in order for democracy to prevail, freedom of speech must be enacted. Consider this:

Any talk against the oppressive state is silenced, usually with a haunting disappearance or a simple deportation.

State leaders are opposed to democratic reform. Demonstrations have taken place, and have been quelled violently. Human rights and education are victim to the state. Wouldn't want to educated people too much. People must be subjected to a bubble. I've experienced this myself when I lived in the UAE. I was in a bubble. Everytime I go back, I feel it. Something difficult to explain but you can feel it. It hurts.

Arabs sit on the wealthies part of the world. Like you said-a gold mine. But do they own the gold mine? The state owns the gold mine. Not the people. I don't have a say where the oil goes. Neither does any Arab I've ever met. Only the Sheikhs and Dictators have a say. What if I had a say? Do you think I would vote for oil to be traded with the United States? Maybe a little. And this goes for millions of Arabs in the Middle East. There are those intellectuals who claim that if Arabs controlled the oil, they would rule the world.

Consider Sykes-Picot of 1916. Separated the Arab world into different countries literally with a ruler on a map. Separation caused a lot of harm to unity. Many nationalist movements at unification were attempted and failed. Nasser was a nationalist, he was defeated by Israel in 1967. He failed. Israel is a dagger in the Middle East. It has helped America prevent unification of Arabs. If you look at Arab politics of the 20th century, you will notice that American interference was a main cause of the failure of these movements. In fact, a US security document in 1956 points out that Arab nationalism is a threat to US interests. The US would bribe countries that served its interests and other countries didn't want a tarnished reputation. Different Arab countries had different interests as the US started to interfere. Unification is a dream. It's referred to as the Arab dream. But at the same time, Arabs these days would rather talk about whether Jordanians are better than Lebanese or Syrians better than Emaratis. Separation is our weakness.

The intellectuals are fighting. A lot of this fighting is taking place in the western world where freedom of speech is much easier.

Who's funding the oppressive leaders of the Arab world? Who put many of these people in power? Do you know that the people didn't put these kings in power? Who did? They didn't do it on their own.

A few more things:

Palestinians under Israeli occupation before 1993 were NOT better off than Arabs in many Arab countries. Stop deluding yourself. Occupation is not freedom. Concentration camps are NOT freedom.

Iraqis right now are in a state of chaos. All Iraqis I know, whether they were pro war or anti war, are now all anti war and hate USA with a vengeance. Iraq is a failed expedition. It's a failure, face it. You can't impose democracy on a people with a war. I read what's happening in Iraq and I feel sad. Very sad.

And perhaps you haven't heard of the intellectual movement, that's BECAUSE THEY ARE SUPPRESSED BY THE SAME THUGS AMERICA SUPPORTS. That's the message. That's the point of my post. Stop supporting these leaders and let democracy flow! The more you suppress democracy, the more Islamic the movement gets, the more nationalism turns to Islamic fundamentalim. People get fed up. They turn to extremist measures. Study the trends and the 20th century history of the Arab people and American influence. This topic requires a lot of education to debate. I don't know if I will post on this again.

Read this

Arab World Needs Change, the Sooner the Better - Al-Maeena

"Do we sit there and wallow in self-pity? No, by God we should not. Everyone must know that it is not their destiny to sit on the sidelines when.."

By Khaled Al-Maeena

I was watching Michael Howard, the leader of the Conservative Party in Britain, say that �we must reach out to the majority of the Muslims who share common values with us to stand together and fight terror.�

Messages, advice and suggestions from every Tom, Dick and Michael are now pouring on the Arab world from all over. George W. Bush started it with a call for reforms from Morocco to the Gulf.

The Europeans followed. Dick Cheney, the US vice-president who is among the conservative hawks in the US administration, spoke about the �transformation of the Middle East� at the World Economic Summit in Davos.

New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman does it a couple of times a week in his paper. He writes open letters to Arab heads of state and others. He does not mince words.

Then of course there is Fareed Zakaria, the American writer of Indian origin in Newsweek, who dishes out lessons on transformation, reforms and change. His message echoes the theme �do or die�. In essence, if the Arab world does not change it will find itself doomed to Third World status and might even fall behind sub-Saharan Africa.

Pretty soon Japan and India will also offer their own reform package � India because it is at the tip of the Gulf and considers itself a regional power, and Japan because it wants a free flow of two-way trade.

However, while many may sit and wishfully think that these are hollow words from the White House, No. 10 Downing Street and pretty much everywhere else, my sincere advice as someone who loves his country and the region is to take careful notice.

Let us not be fooled by the soothing words from their politicians. Let not paid PR companies give us false advice. We have to be aware that whoever is in charge of the White House, whether Bush or Kerry, the US will always be blinded by its desire to rearrange the geopolitics of the region to serve its paramount political, economic and military interests and maintain an Israeli hegemony over the area.

What Arabs unfortunately do not know is that there are no permanent friends in international relations. There are only permanent interests. And if American interests warrant a total and drastic change from Morocco to Pakistan then that is what the US will try to achieve.

What, then, are we to do?

Do we sit there and wallow in self-pity? No, by God we should not. Everyone must know that it is not their destiny to sit on the sidelines when the security of the region is at stake.

We should change. I remember the advice of Dr. Mahathir Mohamad, the former Malaysian prime minister who, when asked what advice he would give the authorities in the region, replied: �Change!� One word.

The Arab countries urgently need to reform, not as a reaction to Bush, Cheney, Howard or Friedman but because reform in the Arab world is both overdue and indispensable. And as Palestinian writer Ramzy Baroud pointed out, what all of us � people and governments � should realize is that our inability to bring about political and social reforms will always keep us in subordination, and that that is why these voices from Washington and elsewhere are getting louder.

We are not being treated as equal partners, Baroud says, because of our own failures to establish ourselves as equals. That is why the Arab governments and the Arab people must redefine the status quo so we can deal with the whole world on an equal footing.

Our region has highly competent women and men who can play a vital and positive role in reforms. There is no shortage of people who care about the progress, stability and security of their country. We pray for that day and night. But in addition to prayers there must be action, and therefore reforms in the region are imperative.

To be indifferent or careless about them or delay them under whatever excuses is an open invitation to Washington to step in and impose the future it has planned for the Middle East.

�Verily never will God change the condition of a people until they change it themselves.� (Qur�an 13:11)

Re: Arab Unity and Democracy - a threat to US interests

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian

Don't want to get into nitpicking right now, a lot of what you say is probably accurate. Just two things though.

quote:

Palestinians under Israeli occupation before 1993 were NOT better off than Arabs in many Arab countries. Stop deluding yourself. Occupation is not freedom. Concentration camps are NOT freedom.

They're not "concentration camps" and I think we all know that. I realize you have a lot of emotions on this subject but let's not turn this into another war of rhetoric - neither I nor Yoepus nor anyone else in this thread has used such loaded language in our own arguments.

quote:

Stop supporting these leaders and let democracy flow! The more you suppress democracy, the more Islamic the movement gets, the more nationalism turns to Islamic fundamentalim. People get fed up. They turn to extremist measures. Study the trends and the 20th century history of the Arab people and American influence. This topic requires a lot of education to debate. I don't know if I will post on this again.

Okay - how? It's not like they're supported by donations, and we can't very well just cease to use any oil. What's your suggestion here?

The USA did make an attempt - albeit a failed, misguided attempt - to get rid of one of these people. It didn't seem to accomplish much - we all know that. So the question is why, what exactly do you think must be done to quell this totalitarianism and extremism? We already know what doesn't work - let's hear it for what does.

Re: Arab Unity and Democracy - a threat to US interests

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian You can't impose democracy on a people with a war.

uh-duh, Japan
all citizens glorified their demi-god ruler but were forced to change to a democracy after their loss in ww2, a very successful democracy now

great post. powerful speech. would have liked to heard it spoken.
cannot speak on an arabs behalf cannot pretend to.
cannot speak on an isrealis behalf either.
i will say this. what he said may have been right on the money but I assure you that if violent means are a way to a handfull of arabs end then we will up your ante every time.
hes right it wont matter who is in office.
he may have liked to have said extemist goals are unattainable.
but that may have taken more sack than a man in his position is willing to show.

quote:

Originally posted by astroboy I suppose you've read it then? In Arabic?... as Arabic poetic metaphor (which most of the Qur'an is written in) usually suffers heavily during translation.

I have read it but not in arabic. I am not saying that all of Kuran is nonsensical ramble, but a pretty large part of it is.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Nobody denied that the Arab world made great contributions to science and technology in historic times. In fact I believe it has already been mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately you are (not surprisingly) lacking evidence to support your assertion that the current state is due to a "lack of funding". That logic is at best dubious, but more like blatantly fallacious, since more than a few Arab countries are filthy rich from their oil. It's what they do with the money that's the problem. I have a feeling that a lot of Arabs are going to take this thread personally, and in a way I can't really blame them, but you really should understand that nobody is putting down Arabs as a race - just highlighting some of the problems with the Arabic nations. And I agree that Nobel prize winners are not exactly the best indicator (although it should be somewhat startling that so many Jews win it, since Jews comprise only a tiny fraction of the industrialized first world). I personally welcome anyone to present other indicators that might reflect a "healthy" situation - however, I think you may be disappointed with what you find (or don't find). Most of us can agree that there is indeed some problem - we just disagree on what's causing it.

well i got a couple if examples in mind if u need..Ahmed zewel who won a nobel prize doesnt live in egypt..one of the worlds lead heart surgeons, Dr MAgdi yakoub lives in europe now due to the lack of technology and lack of funds to carry his researches in egypt..n another simpler example is a person as myself..i like my country to expand my career of information technology and expand my knowledge..and like me alot more left the country for the same reason..if i had access to research facilites or well equiped computer labs i would have never left the country..for god sakes we dont have dsl over there yet hhahaha..enough evidence i think.

Re: Arab Unity and Democracy - a threat to US interests

quote:

Originally posted by Palestinian Basically you're saying that Arabs haven't won as many Nobel Prizes as Jews; therefore Arabs aren't very educated.

Yea that is exaclty what I'm saying

quote:

Illan's stats spoke of the Global Islamic Population but only listed Arabs.

My mistake I thought he just mentioned Arabs.

However Arabs and Islam seem to share this trait. For instance, the closer a nation is to Arabia (Afghanistan, Iran, Paki...) the more they seem to share their culutre. As oppoed to Indonesia, which shares in in much less.

quote:

What about all the Muslims who are non-Arab? They were not included in the stats. Maybe if they were, there would be more Muslim names on that list. And if there isn't, you still have to remember that the majority of the world's Muslims live in less-developed countries.

Go ahead, add them to the list. I'm curious what we will see.
You realize however that the muslim population then is billions not millions anymore right? If you don't find enough nobel winners, this will not help your argument (making it from 1 in 100,000,000 to 1 in 500,000,000 for instance).

quote:

I also want you to know that many Arabs and Muslims have complained of bias against them in Western societies when it comes to evaluating them and their acheivements. I don't know the legitimacy of it, but I hear it a lot.

This is true and I won't deny it. This might also explain why Christian Arabs are higher educated, Western society is more likely to accept and outreach to them. However Jews face similar biases even today.

quote:

I would like to point out that Arabs have contributed immensely to the world. The father of Algebra was an Arab. Much of modern medicine came from Arab innovation in the past.

This is welcome news as it proves I am not a racist ( ) It makes the point (that I share) that Arabs are as capable as anyone to be smart, intellectual and educated.

quote:

Any talk against the oppressive state is silenced, usually with a haunting disappearance or a simple deportation.

This was not always the case. It is not silenced because it fuels extremism and the states have had to take very drastic meassures to prevent extremism. And in most cases this is what the "freedom of speech" is used for, extremism. Not democracy. Had the people not been called to extremisim, the governments would undoubtedly not feel threatened enough to put these draconian meassures in place. But I don't recall great democratic movements ever in Arabia.

Now having said that the quesiton would than be if there was "freedom of speech" in these countries, would it solve their problems and democratize them? I don't think so. It might encourage more extremism. The freedom of speech is in already in a way gauranteed to the intellectuals already through the western word (Arab newspapers abroad, Satilite TV, internet, etc...)

quote:

State leaders are opposed to democratic reform. Demonstrations have taken place, and have been quelled violently.

Could you give some examples?
I know most leadlers are opposed to democratic reforms, but not all. The King of Jordan and Morocco have both welcomed it for instance. However, I don't recall any large rallies calling for democracy in Arabia that were quelled violently, maybe I am wrong.

quote:

Wouldn't want to educated people too much. People must be subjected to a bubble. I've experienced this myself when I lived in the UAE. I was in a bubble. Everytime I go back, I feel it. Something difficult to explain but you can feel it. It hurts.

Yet nations like the UAE and Kuwait allow thier citizens the privilege of a university education for free. They don't go to their own Unversities however, they are so academically poor, instead they send them to the West for first rate education at the expense of the state (the very oil money).

quote:

Arabs sit on the wealthies part of the world. Like you said-a gold mine. But do they own the gold mine? The state owns the gold mine.

My confusion. You'll have to excuse my communist leanings ( ) but isn't the state the people?

quote:

Not the people. I don't have a say where the oil goes. Neither does any Arab I've ever met. Only the Sheikhs and Dictators have a say. What if I had a say? Do you think I would vote for oil to be traded with the United States? Maybe a little.

I don't really think the big deal here is the 'control of the oil', rather the control of the money from the oil. You'd probably care much more about the money going to schools, hospitals, roads, and day cares, than the pockets of some playboy Saudi prince.

quote:

And this goes for millions of Arabs in the Middle East. There are those intellectuals who claim that if Arabs controlled the oil, they would rule the world.

Well you'd have to build a military first
So far your battle record in the past centure isn't that optimistic, but don't let me put you down :P

quote:

Consider Sykes-Picot of 1916. Separated the Arab world into different countries literally with a ruler on a map.

Certainly though Arab states must be strong individually before they can be strong together. Afterall, look at the EU. Who do they accept? Only the states that meet their highest standards, why? Else the EU would collapse.

The US 'allowed' the EU to have a "European nation", I don't see why they would be opposed to an "Arab nation". Surely the European naiton is of greater threat to the US than the Arab one. Israel is another matter of course, but don't blame the failure on the Arab nation as the sole fault of Israel (though that would make us really happy).

The fact is until your nations are strong enough by themselves they will never be able ot be strong enough together. Look at all nations that are together. The US, Canada, EU, etc... only strong states form strong nations. When you have weak states (i.e. Yugoslaiva, Russia, etc) God help you.

quote:

The intellectuals are fighting. A lot of this fighting is taking place in the western world where freedom of speech is much easier.

The extremist seem to be exercising their "freedom of speech" in the Arab world without any problem. Seems like an uphill battle to me. Which brings me to the quesiton, is this "freedom of speech" of the intellectuals actually state censorship or people cenorship?

For instance, after Sept 11th the Americans would go mad at you for critizing the Bush or the US, so people wouldn't. The government didn't stop them for saying that, but the people did. Two entirely different things.

quote:

Who's funding the oppressive leaders of the Arab world?

The Arabs are. Who's paying the taxes for these Arab leaders?
The Americans? Right. US funding to these nations is pennies compared to their wealth.

quote:

Who put many of these people in power? Do you know that the people didn't put these kings in power? Who did? They didn't do it on their own.

Many colonial powers put these "people in power". However, not always the Saudis for instance have been a dynasty for quiet a long time. And all these areas had Kings preceding the colonial powers. They just usually changed them.

The question is, why didn't the people take them OUT of power if they were opposed to them?

You could tell me they simply couldn't. But look at Iran (yes I know not Arab, but culturally very similar regardless), they were able to throw out their appointed King (of course putting in a bunch of the wrong guys in his stead.. not intellecutals, but extremists) so can't the rest of you?

quote:

Palestinians under Israeli occupation before 1993 were NOT better off than Arabs in many Arab countries. Stop deluding yourself. Occupation is not freedom. Concentration camps are NOT freedom.

Your right, in that there is no way to evaluate liberty and how much it is a factor. However, I was considering more objective indicators like employment, income, education, % below poverty line, water, health, etc. All these objective indicators where much better for the Palestinian people before their self-rule.

Regardless, this doesn't take from the fact that Arab Israelis enjoy a very, very high standard of living. And that the West seems to have a positive impact on the liberties of Arabs, not worse.

Even Iraq, assuming its failing, when it 'was' succeeding seemed the most promising way to deliver democracy and liberty to the midddle east. I don't know, do you deny this? Maybe there are people that are.
After all, it was all about oil right?

quote:

And perhaps you haven't heard of the intellectual movement, that's BECAUSE THEY ARE SUPPRESSED BY THE SAME THUGS AMERICA SUPPORTS. That's the message.

How come the intellectuals are suppressed by the same thugs American supports, and not the extremists?

Afterall, if I thought the west would support thugs it would be because they suppressed extremists.

quote:

That's the point of my post. Stop supporting these leaders and let democracy flow! The more you suppress democracy, the more Islamic the movement gets, the more nationalism turns to Islamic fundamentalim. People get fed up. They turn to extremist measures. Study the trends and the 20th century history of the Arab people and American influence. This topic requires a lot of education to debate. I don't know if I will post on this again.

I am educated. Not to a doctoral level, but college educated none the less. Just because I take a different angle on this doesn't mean I am not. I haven't seen any trend in the 20th century that indicates Arabs strive to democracy. Even under Nasser's Pan-Arabism dream, he was the ruler, not the people.

And I don't support any of the Arab governments (except for Jordan, I like them ) I don't encourage their suppression of democracy. But the interesting I see is that these nations don't supress thier extremist, and as you claim they do supress their intellectuals.

You fcan say that, I don't think it has to do with supression. I simply don't think there are that much intellectuals to being with to supress. We are not hearing about them because they are not there, not because they are made quiet. This is the divergence in both our view points.

The nobel prize stat would help lean towards my view

quote:

Originally posted by tranceaholic well i got a couple if examples in mind if u need..Ahmed zewel who won a nobel prize doesnt live in egypt..one of the worlds lead heart surgeons, Dr MAgdi yakoub lives in europe now due to the lack of technology and lack of funds to carry his researches in egypt..n another simpler example is a person as myself..i like my country to expand my career of information technology and expand my knowledge..and like me alot more left the country for the same reason..if i had access to research facilites or well equiped computer labs i would have never left the country..for god sakes we dont have dsl over there yet hhahaha..enough evidence i think.

I understand that the research/educational facilities in many of these Arab countries are poor. I'm not denying that. Obviously, if they had the same caliber of universities and the same level of R&D as Israel or the USA, their countries would be far better off.

My point of contention is that it's not the Western world's responsibility to create that infrastructure or pump money into those nations' economies so that they can create it themselves. The USA has only been around a few centuries and it created it on its own. Canada has been around for even less time, and even though we don't have the same quality of [post-secondary] education as the USA, it's decent here too. Neither Canada nor the USA were "rich" countries in the beginning. They made that money and reached that economic status partially because of their democratic and educational values.

So yes you can blame the level of education on the infrastructure of those Arab nations, but I think that's self-evident. The point is that the infrastructure is poor because of the theocratic and totalitarian nature of these countries and the mass religious opposition to change of any kind. It's not because the USA is holding them back. They're holding themselves back.

Perhaps, some of these Arabs that have come to the USA and led such "privileged" lives and received such high educations will one day return to their home countries and use those superior educations to better the living conditions there? One can only hope - but somehow I feel doubtful.

hehe it turned from jews vs islam to jews vs arabs.... jews _are_ also arabs.

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Originally posted by DigiNut I understand that the research/educational facilities in many of these Arab countries are poor. I'm not denying that. Obviously, if they had the same caliber of universities and the same level of R&D as Israel or the USA, their countries would be far better off. My point of contention is that it's not the Western world's responsibility to create that infrastructure or pump money into those nations' economies so that they can create it themselves. The USA has only been around a few centuries and it created it on its own. Canada has been around for even less time, and even though we don't have the same quality of [post-secondary] education as the USA, it's decent here too. Neither Canada nor the USA were "rich" countries in the beginning. They made that money and reached that economic status partially because of their democratic and educational values. So yes you can blame the level of education on the infrastructure of those Arab nations, but I think that's self-evident. The point is that the infrastructure is poor because of the theocratic and totalitarian nature of these countries and the mass religious opposition to change of any kind. It's not because the USA is holding them back. They're holding themselves back. Perhaps, some of these Arabs that have come to the USA and led such "privileged" lives and received such high educations will one day return to their home countries and use those superior educations to better the living conditions there? One can only hope - but somehow I feel doubtful.

u gotta point there..Arab countries are very strict due to religious belifs..it is hard to start anything new..it is hard to be liberal with ideas..the reason why people who live a privelegd life never return is that ur way of thinking changes..it is impossible to go back to a strict country when u r used to bein free..i mean people r so deprived when they see to people kiss in like an americam movie, u hear applaude in the theatre..it is just impossible to start something new..funniest thing i ever saw in egypt was when he had our presedential elections..no one is brave enuf to run against the president..i saw a banner that said we support u president mubarak in the elections n on the other side congratulations president mobarak hahahahaa..what i am tryin to say is arabs r really smart people, they just need a chance n it is hard to get in thier countries..

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Originally posted by DigiNut Allow me to take a leap of faith and assume your exact position - that the Arab world cannot progress toward democracy until it ceases to be influenced by external democracy (the US). I'm not sure how that works logically,...

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Originally posted by Yoepus Ok please help me understand your logic. Democracy in the Arab world is a threat to US and Israeli interest why? Because when the Arabs are in control of their own oil, they won't sell it the USA and Israel? What will they do then, keep it all to themselves? Might want to work on that theory a bit.

In 1953, after nationalizing the oil industry, democratically elected Iranian Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh was overthrown in a coup by the CIA and British intelligence.

Alright I know Iran isn't an Arab country, but it's the only example I am familiar with and it is just one example of the USA trying to control the oil in the middle east, whether the people of that country wanted democracy or not.

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Originally posted by Superstar Alright I know Iran isn't an Arab country, but it's the only example I am familiar with and it is just one example of the USA trying to control the oil in the middle east, whether the people of that country wanted democracy or not.

I always find how people always change basically a British coup into an Ameircan with British support coup when it was the exact opposite

Regardless, the USA can obtain oil with Iraq if it chose to and in many indirect ways it does it. However, the US choses not to recongize the Iranian government, in kind the Iranian government doesn't chose to recongize the USA. And it wasn't till the Shas' revolution I believe till this happened.

If extremist take over control of the Arab nations, I don't doubt they woudl be much like Iran. The argument here is if the people take control of the Arab nations will they behave in the same fashion. I don't think so, I think they will sell their oil to the west, even if they 'don't want to'. Regardless, they will surely sell it to Europe and Asia which are the primary oil buyers of middle east oil regardless.

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Originally posted by tranceaholic u gotta point there..Arab countries are very strict due to religious belifs..it is hard to start anything new..it is hard to be liberal with ideas..the reason why people who live a privelegd life never return is that ur way of thinking changes..it is impossible to go back to a strict country when u r used to bein free..i mean people r so deprived when they see to people kiss in like an americam movie, u hear applaude in the theatre..it is just impossible to start something new..funniest thing i ever saw in egypt was when he had our presedential elections..no one is brave enuf to run against the president..i saw a banner that said we support u president mubarak in the elections n on the other side congratulations president mobarak hahahahaa..what i am tryin to say is arabs r really smart people, they just need a chance n it is hard to get in thier countries..

No argument from me there. As I said, I'm not a racist, I definitely don't have any problem with Arabs and there are in fact some damn smart ones in my university. It's just that the countries themselves - the way they are run - leave a lot to be desired, and the effect of this unfortunately gets transferred onto their populations, which are massive (there are what, maybe 50 million Arabs max out of 1 billion living outside the UAE?).

It is sad that, as in your example, people are afraid to challenge the president. Pretty far from democracy if you ask me. I'm not defending America's actions in Iraq, but all of this is begging the question, who IS fit to challenge the corrupt totalitarian regimes that are so common in the particular Arab-dominated region of the world that we're talking about? And is it even possible to do it nonviolently, since it is abundantly clear that the regime itself will turn violent when challenged in any way whatsoever?

Obviously, the best thing would be for Arabs themselves to challenge it. And chances are, if that ever happens, it would be Arabs who have lived in the more "privileged" countries, not the ones in those oppressed nations. But even the chances of that are low, since as you say, living here changes their way of thinking and they turn their backs on their home countries because they are oppressive.

There is no easy solution here. I think most people would be willing to venture that something should be done about the situation, but what, and how? I'm not pretending to know the answer, I'm just stating the question on clear terms.

Ok, so are we killing jews or arabs? The title is kind of confusing and I want to make sure that I kill the right people.

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Originally posted by occrider Ok, so are we killing jews or arabs? The title is kind of confusing and I want to make sure that I kill the right people.

for good meassure, "KILL THEM ALLLLL!!!"

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Originally posted by Yoepus I always find how people always change basically a British coup into an Ameircan with British support coup when it was the exact opposite

I don't think I said it was American with British support, I just said both nations were involved...

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/midd.../iran_3-17.html

Read what Madeleine Albright had to say about that...

"In 1953 the United States played a significant role in orchestrating the overthrow of Iran's popular prime minister, Mohammed Mossadegh"

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Originally posted by Yoepus Regardless, the USA can obtain oil with Iraq if it chose to and in many indirect ways it does it. However, the US choses not to recongize the Iranian government, in kind the Iranian government doesn't chose to recongize the USA. And it wasn't till the Shas' revolution I believe till this happened.

Well that's because the Shah was put in power by the British and Americans (there, happy? I put Britain first this time).

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Originally posted by Yoepus If extremist take over control of the Arab nations, I don't doubt they woudl be much like Iran. The argument here is if the people take control of the Arab nations will they behave in the same fashion. I don't think so, I think they will sell their oil to the west, even if they 'don't want to'. Regardless, they will surely sell it to Europe and Asia which are the primary oil buyers of middle east oil regardless.

You're right in that the country will still sell oil to the US and others, but it would be at a higher price and the revenues would go to the country itself and its local companies, instead of foreign companies like Halliburton and (specific to Iran) the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company.

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Originally posted by Superstar You're right in that the country will still sell oil to the US and others, but it would be at a higher price and the revenues would go to the country itself and its local companies, instead of foreign companies like Halliburton and (specific to Iran) the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company.

Don't worry, Americans are getting used to the high prices at the pump already

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