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quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Perhaps these people fear change.

Or it could be that every time they try and institute change they end up having their cities gassed by Saddam, their towns shelled by the Syrians, the Jordanian army sent out to quash the activists, Iranian secret police sent out to arrest student activists, Egyptian secret police sent out to torture and imprison reformists, Taliban Ministry of vice officials out to shoot women in their soccer arena... etc etc etc...

Personally, if Bush decided to wipe out Brooklyn because New Yorkers were protesting the war, I think I would pretty quickly stop protesting.

quote:

Originally posted by mps242 Or it could be that every time they try and institute change they end up having their cities gassed by Saddam, their towns shelled by the Syrians, the Jordanian army sent out to quash the activists, Iranian secret police sent out to arrest student activists, Egyptian secret police sent out to torture and imprison reformists, Taliban Ministry of vice officials out to shoot women in their soccer arena... etc etc etc... Personally, if Bush decided to wipe out Brooklyn because New Yorkers were protesting the war, I think I would pretty quickly stop protesting.

Well if you were kidnapping and holding hostage and brutally murdering the very people who are trying to help improve your living conditions, then yeah.

Turns out they killed the Italian with a shot to the back of the neck with a pistol. I suppose that's far less brutal/painful than I had imagined it being. I guess that will be at least some comfort to the poor guy's family.

im sure if America were under brutal occupation, war, and sanctions for many years, white people would be reacting the same way.

You people can sit your comfy asses in your sweet picket fenced american neighborhoods, go to school and get an education without worrying about soldiers from an occupation army fighting insurgents that are against them in your town.

Its sad that you people cannot look behind the actual act and see why these people may be commiting these disgusting blackmail tactics.

Its so easy for you people to call them sub-human and criticise their acts (which i condemn) yet fail to recognize how your tax dollars are feeding the military that is in their faces everyday.

These people are pissed off. They care no more for human life after what your government and the leader that was supported by your government for many years has done to their mentality. They now have to unleash this anger, frustration and insanity out on people. This is WAR... people DIE.. like so many of you pro-war morons have mentioned numerous times.

You all make it look as though it is inherently running in their blood to visciously murder people when they are angry. Its not that simple boys and girls.

And i will say it again... YOUR GOVENRMENT HAS MADE THIS ENEMY!

To say that they were "there" and hibernating until the moment was right is as ridiculous as hearing the brainless responses bush gave last night. But bush is inherently stupid and evil... it runs in his blood.. just look at his dad

Americans wouldnt let our country get to that shit state in the first place is the point. In fact, we are Americans because we refused to be part of a government we disagreed with.
That and Georgia was a penal colony or something...

anyways.


Id rather be under US occupation than anyone else in the world. Cept maybe the french, cuz I KNOW they wouldnt do anything.

When you let, LET, your country get to that messed up of a state, YOU DONT GET TO BITCH when someone pulls your nuts out of the fire with a pair of pliers. That whole area is a sink of radical fanaticism and outdated ideologies. It needs a good airing.

on a smaller scale:

Ive gotten my ass kicked for some stuff before. Three guys ganged up, kicked my ass. I needed it. I said some stuff I shouldnt have. I am intelligent enough to realize that I messed up and I got the wrath.

I just cant believe these people arent saying "yeah, we totally screwed up our nations for decades, thanks for handing us our asses back on a silver platter, you guys rock"

Sometimes you need a good ass-kicking, and it takes a man to admit it.

"it takes a big man to cry, but it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man"

i would nit pick at your responses becuase you have atotally different perception of what america is actually there for,, but i would be going in circles with self-righteous arguments like yours.

In any event, you must understand that you didnt make anything better there. Its only a different type of chaos and fear that the whole populace fears now.

Before it was one man murdering for power, now its everyone murdering for power.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Americans wouldnt let our country get to that shit state in the first place is the point. In fact, we are Americans because we refused to be part of a government we disagreed with. That and Georgia was a penal colony or something... anyways. Id rather be under US occupation than anyone else in the world. Cept maybe the french, cuz I KNOW they wouldnt do anything. When you let, LET, your country get to that messed up of a state, YOU DONT GET TO BITCH when someone pulls your nuts out of the fire with a pair of pliers. That whole area is a sink of radical fanaticism and outdated ideologies. It needs a good airing. on a smaller scale: Ive gotten my ass kicked for some stuff before. Three guys ganged up, kicked my ass. I needed it. I said some stuff I shouldnt have. I am intelligent enough to realize that I messed up and I got the wrath. I just cant believe these people arent saying "yeah, we totally screwed up our nations for decades, thanks for handing us our asses back on a silver platter, you guys rock" Sometimes you need a good ass-kicking, and it takes a man to admit it. "it takes a big man to cry, but it takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man"

word

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Before it was one man murdering for power, now its everyone murdering for power.

No.
It's the murderers murdering for power.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King i would nit pick at your responses becuase you have atotally different perception of what america is actually there for,, but i would be going in circles with self-righteous arguments like yours. In any event, you must understand that you didnt make anything better there. Its only a different type of chaos and fear that the whole populace fears now. Before it was one man murdering for power, now its everyone murdering for power.

You call me Self-righteous, I call you a bitter anarchist, we're even, and name calling gets us nowhere

Lets think of it this way. Something there HAD TO CHANGE. Someone HAD TO facilitate that change. It wasnt gonna be them. Thats been proven by thousands of years of stagnation. Who then. What outside force would you choose. The UN wasnt gonna do anything, so dont even mention them.

the EU? Yeah...they are known for helping out.

Africa then...oh wait.

ok the Eastern Bloc!

ohhh...noo....

Canada? Mexico? South or Central America?

THE CHINESE?!??!?!


Who would you choose to get in there and get dirty? K, didnt work out so well. Thats 20/20 hindsight.

Who else would have gone there. Who else would have tried. Who who who who who.

^^^^ Apparently you have bought into the "new justification" for invading Iraq. Removing Saddam and pulling the Iraqis "nuts out of the fire" was never the objective of the Bush administration nor Blair. Their purpose was to rid Saddam of his WMD.
Now that we see that no WMD can be found in Iraq, the warmongers are obliged to find another excuse to sell to their voting public. Unfortunately not everyone is intelligent enough to see through the manipulation...

For your comment about the US doing the dirty work and the EU doing nothing - here's how it works: The US bombs some country back to the stone ages, and the rest of the world then spends resources over the next decade for providing peace keepers, diplomacy, and money for rebuilding. And unlike the US we do not condition our help on contracts for national companies.

I cannot fathom why you ordinary Americans have this need to defend the Iraq war. Admit that your government screwed up. Misled you. Abused its allies. Your not your government.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax You call me Self-righteous, I call you a bitter anarchist, we're even, and name calling gets us nowhere Lets think of it this way. Something there HAD TO CHANGE. Someone HAD TO facilitate that change. It wasnt gonna be them. Thats been proven by thousands of years of stagnation. Who then. What outside force would you choose. The UN wasnt gonna do anything, so dont even mention them. the EU? Yeah...they are known for helping out. Africa then...oh wait. ok the Eastern Bloc! ohhh...noo.... Canada? Mexico? South or Central America? THE CHINESE?!??!?! Who would you choose to get in there and get dirty? K, didnt work out so well. Thats 20/20 hindsight. Who else would have gone there. Who else would have tried. Who who who who who.

Who should have done this????

THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ... with the help of funding to miliatry coups like the US has done many times.

There are far worse places that need to be "liberated"

Tranceholic is right... pro war mongerers are switching the deabte from "he was a threat" to "he was evil" and someone HAD to remove him.

Why dont you attack the man who was telling you he had weapons (north Korea)??? That leader is equal, if not worse than saddam.

Why not "FACILITATE" your change on the whole world for not wanting to live like you americans.

you cannot FORCE democracy on a population that has been scarred by oppression, sanctions, and fear. They simply cannot adapt so fast to this concept.

LOL... you actually think what you are doing should be applauded??????

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo No. It's the murderers murdering for power.

So iraqi's were and always are murderers, even during saddams rule

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Its incredibly disturbing that those people somehow think they are doing the right thing (although that is giving them the extreme benefit of the doubt because I guarantee they know that brutally murdering civillians is one of those things that you shouldnt do) and they feel some weird compulsion to carry this through.

You are aware that this statement can be applied to the US invasion of Iraq if seen from another point of view, aren't you?

quote:

Id rather be under US occupation than anyone else in the world. Cept maybe the french, cuz I KNOW they wouldnt do anything.

Oh i see... you are an american living in the US who would rather be under US occupation than any other in the world... wow, that's an intelligent statement

quote:

Originally posted by mps242 So all it takes is the killing of an Italian and you're willing to use the untermensch label? I guess it's not just us yanks then, eh?

Hehehe not quite. I agree in the case of the people who will take prisoners and torture them and kill them in cold blood. The sub human thing doesn't extend to the civilians or even the insurgents (although I do disagree which what they are doing) who fight in a more tradional sence. I mean even in that other post (the monster sized one)I would be critical of the American methods and view points. But you can't be against what the Americans indeed the whole colilition is trying to do. It's costing a hell of alot and anyone who thinks it's ALL about oil I think is wrong. Sorry have I gone a bit off topic?

Edit: Also I'd say in some parts of Iraq for now the situation has gone past recovery in the near future. Becuase of the methods used.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic ^^^^ Apparently you have bought into the "new justification" for invading Iraq. Removing Saddam and pulling the Iraqis "nuts out of the fire" was never the objective of the Bush administration nor Blair. Their purpose was to rid Saddam of his WMD. Now that we see that no WMD can be found in Iraq, the warmongers are obliged to find another excuse to sell to their voting public. Unfortunately not everyone is intelligent enough to see through the manipulation... For your comment about the US doing the dirty work and the EU doing nothing - here's how it works: The US bombs some country back to the stone ages, and the rest of the world then spends resources over the next decade for providing peace keepers, diplomacy, and money for rebuilding. And unlike the US we do not condition our help on contracts for national companies. I cannot fathom why you ordinary Americans have this need to defend the Iraq war. Admit that your government screwed up. Misled you. Abused its allies. Your not your government.

I don't believe that it is necessarily offering up a defence for the war as opposed to the lack of understanding on the part of a lot that the war was flawed from the beginning. The original aims and purposes of this campaign have so far been a dismal failure, no WMDs compounded with no security and stability either politically or socially.

My point with Europe would be that they can stand by and critique the actions of the U.S. however when do they say that enough is enough. The I told you so attitude only goes so far, there comes a point in time when that boundary must be crossed. I'm still waiting for it. I have no concern for Iraq anymore than I do for us being there in the first place. I find that the leaders in our government seem to have failed to understand that the U.S. has no appreciation in that part of the World at all in their pursuit of a new strategy in the Middle East. I wish that we could leave the Israelis and Palestinians to solve their own damn problems, because the U.S. gets blamed for every Israeli action as well.

I was someone who believed in humanity, the rights and freedoms of others and helping out other nations to try and foster a better society, today those ideals are shot. I now have the attitude of every man for himself in these Developing World nations, America should have a hands off approach and not intervene in any of these places, it is the best way to avoid any backlash ala many of the European nations trancaholic

Iranian Diplomat Shot and Killed.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast...main/index.html

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Iranian Diplomat Shot and Killed. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast...main/index.html

What does it tell you about the kinds of people that are operating here. They thrive on chaos, disorder and instability and would like to see it continue no matter who they have to kill.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Your government has created that enemy

Word...

quote:

Originally posted by NYCTrancefan What does it tell you about the kinds of people that are operating here. They thrive on chaos, disorder and instability and would like to see it continue no matter who they have to kill.

It certainly provides insight into their motives. It appears their goals involve more than simply driving the US out.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King im sure if America were under brutal occupation, war, and sanctions for many years, white people would be reacting the same way.

Ummm, actually no... When Americans have been under occupation we haven't reacted in the same way. When Europeans have been under occupation they didn't react in the same way. When Aisans are under occupation they didn't react in the same way... We leave such barbarity to Muslims.

quote:

Its sad that you people cannot look behind the actual act and see why these people may be commiting these disgusting blackmail tactics.

Frankly, I don't care what their cause is, and only a half-wit with a stunted moral code would ever say "sure, they shoot a prisoner in the neck violating every law of war in the book, but it's not a big deal because their cause is ok." I guess if we decide to gas Fallujah you won't complain because you'll be looking at why we did it instead of our actions...

quote:

These people are pissed off. They care no more for human life after what your government and the leader that was supported by your government for many years has done to their mentality. They now have to unleash this anger, frustration and insanity out on people. This is WAR... people DIE.. like so many of you pro-war morons have mentioned numerous times.

Since we're on the same page then, let's stop taking prisoners, pull out of fallujah, and then flatten the city with Moabs (although we do have a nice supply of chemical weapons in teh US that we don't know how to get rid of, this could be a great disposal method)

quote:

You all make it look as though it is inherently running in their blood to visciously murder people when they are angry. Its not that simple boys and girls. And i will say it again... YOUR GOVENRMENT HAS MADE THIS ENEMY!

Yeah, ok... Such a shame that Arabs/Muslims (and particularly Iraqis) have become so brutal in the past year... You might have a point... if you ignore the entire history of Islam and the Arab world. As a Persian, you of all people should be aware of how fucked up and brutal Arab culture can be...

quote:

To say that they were "there" and hibernating until the moment was right is as ridiculous as hearing the brainless responses bush gave last night. But bush is inherently stupid and evil... it runs in his blood.. just look at his dad

Who said they were hibernating? We've been fighting people like this since we entered Iraq. They've just decided to spread the fight to contractors now...

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic ^^^^ Apparently you have bought into the "new justification" for invading Iraq. Removing Saddam and pulling the Iraqis "nuts out of the fire" was never the objective of the Bush administration nor Blair. Their purpose was to rid Saddam of his WMD.

You can only make that statement if you completely ignore Bush's speech to the UN and everything that the Administration was saying before the war. They sold us on WMD, but they were ALWAYS talking about what a brutal dictator Saddam was...

quote:

For your comment about the US doing the dirty work and the EU doing nothing - here's how it works: The US bombs some country back to the stone ages, and the rest of the world then spends resources over the next decade for providing peace keepers, diplomacy, and money for rebuilding. And unlike the US we do not condition our help on contracts for national companies.

Really? Then where are the French and German troops? Why was there such a big fuss when contracts were going to be awarded to contributing nations?

Gosh, thanks Europe for all those rebuilding funds, it certainly puts the US contribution to shame...

Shit, Canada has contributed more in terms of troops and funds to Afghanistan than most of Europe.

The way things actually work:

Europeans find themselves with a mess on their hands that they can't deal with, so they call the US to bomb the shit out of the problem and put our troops lives on the line. Of course, Europe never thinks it's appropriate to act in the fact of ethnic cleansing or genocide unless it threatens to spill over into their own country.

Over the next several decades, we're forced to babysit the problem with US troops, and diplomcay while we have to deal with Eurotards (I mean far-leftists, the US equivalent are Amerotards) protesting the presence of US troops. Oh, and if they've stopped protesting our presense they then decide to complain that the US didn't start bombing soon enough. Then the US gets to foot the bill for rebuilding Europe in exchange for a few lousy bases and having our soldiers gravestones vandalized. Oh, and when Europeans do decide to contribute peacekeepers, they're far too concerned about keeping their uniforms clean to actually do anything to prevent ethnic strife and murders when chaos breaks out right next to their base.

I think that pretty much sums up that past century of American/European relations.

Oh yeah, I forgot... When NATO invokes article 5 only Canada and the UK seem to actually be willing to put their money where their mouth is and stand up to help their "ally and friend."

quote:

I cannot fathom why you ordinary Americans have this need to defend the Iraq war. Admit that your government screwed up. Misled you. Abused its allies. Your not your government.

Yes Bush has fucked up, but no we can't just leave Iraq today. And no... Europeans pulling out of Iraq and refusing to assist in stabilizing the country is not a principled, moral, fair, or intelligent attitude... Perhaps if Europeans would admit that their current position is just as wrong as Bushes position was a year ago, you'd find more Americans open to European criticism.

GG guys, you must have read my mind through the internet.

I never believed the WMD thing. I have always thought that someone needs to go clean up the Middle East. So it isnt me buying into propaganda. I dont watch TV. I just read stuff from around the world.

You said that the Iraquis should have done it? I already covered that. You think funding could ever get that hopeless mob into a fighting force that can take over the most militarized nation on earth? You think those some people who come out of their holes screaming when a loudspeaker says that they have no nuts are gonna be the fighting force you need?

Hell no.

Iraqis werent gonna do shit. Even if we could somehow persuade a faction of their military to splinter, it would be a clusterfuck and you know it. Those people cant fight worth crap.

And I am AlLLLLLLlLL for America going after every shitty little country. North Korea, the rest of the Middle East, and pretty much all of Africa too.

I think the UN needs to clean up Africa more than its the USs job, but the point is this:

Its about fuc$ing time for people to realize that the horrible conditions out there CAN BE CHANGED. No more of this "but what can I do, im just one man" crap. You can join the army, get sent off to another country, and change it.

The fact that it took until 2004 for somene to get off their ass and depose Sadam is ridiculous. The fact that we have pussies out there backing away from what I see as their obligation to help clean up the world saying that Iraq should not have been bothered...God help us.

If Hitler happened again today,Id be very afraid to what the rest of the world's reaction to him would be.

I think the UN is foolish for not utilizing a nation that can walk in and conquer a country in 2 weeks. I think it is foolish for not making a group that could do it in 1 week, and then, using a coalition force, bring about the needed changes under martial law.

But thats not gonna happen is it? Because the UN does nothing. They are the same fun dudes who let Rwanda happen because it "wasnt genocide" and it makes me sick that the US didnt walk in, place a boot on their neck, and stick a shottie to the back of their head and tell them to stop killing people with machetes. The UN withdrew from a school and hundreds of women and children were beaten to death, shot, and hacked with machetes.

When do we stop being bystanders, and starting being activists? How much shit needs to happen? We had to get 3000 people killed. What will it take for you guys to change YOUR minds?

RE: Americans being the best occupiers.

You are projecting your own idiotic logic onto me when you say that YOU AS AN AMERICAN WANT TO BE CAPTURED BY AMERICANS *bouts of insane giggling because youre so clever*

No, moron, Americans treat their captives top notch. The Chinese will just torture your ass, the French will lock you away in some dank hell hole for eternity, and Middle Easterns will just kill you.

Because of the prominence of the US we are held to the highest level. If we did something shitty to our prisoners, the world would be up in arms, bitching. So there are two reasons why its better to be under US occupation. Next time pinch your vagina lips closed before you let them going flapping in the wind again.

quote:

Originally posted by borron You are aware that this statement can be applied to the US invasion of Iraq if seen from another point of view, aren't you?

and Im sure Hitler was pissed off at people stopping him too. Even though there are two side, one of them is right.

quote:

For your comment about the US doing the dirty work and the EU doing nothing - here's how it works: The US bombs some country back to the stone ages, and the rest of the world then spends resources over the next decade for providing peace keepers, diplomacy, and money for rebuilding. And unlike the US we do not condition our help on contracts for national companies.

keep in mind the reason you HAVE money is because we cancelled debt after WWII.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax No, moron, Americans treat their captives top notch. The Chinese will just torture your ass, the French will lock you away in some dank hell hole for eternity, and Middle Easterns will just kill you. Because of the prominence of the US we are held to the highest level. If we did something shitty to our prisoners, the world would be up in arms, bitching. So there are two reasons why its better to be under US occupation. Next time pinch your vagina lips closed before you let them going flapping in the wind again.

Laughable. Let's see some of that "top notch" treatment.




Caption (^^picture above^^): "Children are among the detainees at Guantanamo Bay."



MY PERSONAL FAVOURITE:

Caption: "Agenti della polizia militare trasferiscono in barella un detenuto del campo X-Ray di Guantanamo Bay per sottoporlo a interrogatorio"
Rough translation: Military police agents transfer detainee from X-ray camp to interrogatory room.

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