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quote:

Originally posted by alanzo I believe it to be a good idea to leave ALL fx (except for filters) until the end when you're mastering.. this way you concentrate more on how your MIX sounds.. rather then how the SYNTHS sound..

umma no, in REAL LIFE the only thing that happens in mastering is compression, precision EQ, and peek limiting� maybe some other stuff like de-�S�ing but those three are usually it. However you are right and should wait till you have a suitable mix before adding things like reverb and delay, but they are never added in the mastering process.

quote:

Originally posted by Bondor umma no, in REAL LIFE the only thing that happens in mastering is compression, precision EQ, and peek limiting� maybe some other stuff like de-�S�ing but those three are usually it. However you are right and should wait till you have a suitable mix before adding things like reverb and delay, but they are never added in the mastering process.

ok, it might not be common practice to do this.. but it sure saves on CPU..

I use Cubase SX 2.0 - When i'm done with the mix I freeze all of the VSTis and then add FX - if I add FX while mixing or without freezing the insturments the program lags like a basterd even on my 2.8Ghz system..

so perhaps this would be more of an amateur solution to the problem then.. since most of us dont have $$ to put in to multiple PCs to spread out the CPU load..

OK , So i am really just starting to understand the whole concept of compressing and eqing. But i feel as if sometimes you can over compress things and may just screw your track and sounds up.. I am just really wondering about the eqing thing.. I DEF 100% need to work on that, but i am lost and dont know where to start.


Any info or tables about Eqing percusiion,hi hats and such in the 'proper' way... I am trying to get rid of any mud(crap,mushiness) in my track.

Thanks again guys

quote:

Originally posted by Biatchzxz Any info or tables about Eqing percusiion,hi hats and such in the 'proper' way... I am trying to get rid of any mud(crap,mushiness) in my track.

Well for starters, try to use subtractive EQing rather than additive. What this means, is that if you want a sound to be brighter in the mix, instead of turning up the high frequencies, try cutting some of the lower ones instead. It's very difficult to master, but results are superior and you don't waste headroom by increasing the signal.

If you have two sounds that are conflicting, occupying the same frequency range and stereo positioning doesn't seem to be working (or can't be used - ie kick & bass sounds), try finding which frequencies are conflicting between the two and roll them back on one of the sounds. That will definitely help clean up your mix.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo ok, it might not be common practice to do this.. but it sure saves on CPU.. I use Cubase SX 2.0 - When i'm done with the mix I freeze all of the VSTis and then add FX - if I add FX while mixing or without freezing the insturments the program lags like a basterd even on my 2.8Ghz system.. so perhaps this would be more of an amateur solution to the problem then.. since most of us dont have $$ to put in to multiple PCs to spread out the CPU load..

True. Actually I do a lot at the same time: eq-ing and mixing and adding fx. p4 2.66 ghz lags big time. I use Fruity. I freezed the fx and worked on and it didn't lag wohoo! Thanx for that guys!

But mastering stays a bit nasty cause you need to put the fx on again..

Hey jay how did u freeze the FX in fruity?

its all about what you put into the fx

so how much panning should synth and perc get? i mean to much and your track have on the left side a few instruments and other side a few there, sure it wouldn't sound right in a club or something right?

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Originally posted by midaV Hey jay how did u freeze the FX in fruity?

I just turned them all off.

quote:

so how much panning should synth and perc get? i mean to much and your track have on the left side a few instruments and other side a few there, sure it wouldn't sound right in a club or something right?

IMO you can stereo enhance them both and pan the percs some a bit to the left some a bit right. Not too much I guess. In some tracks the synth is more left at a note and at the next more right... Dunno if there are rules for it..

The only thing I can really add to what others have mentioned is to start with the cleanest possible kick sample, the cleanest possible drum samples, and then fit the bassline of the track with those samples as perfectly as possible before even moving on to anything else. When you have driving beats + bass, I find that fitting everything else in afterwards becomes pretty easy.

just a little note...always remember that lots of stereospread = less punch in your track so don't overdo the spread to much...

as a thumbrule try to keep the beat as centered as possible to keep the punch and pressure in your track

hey man,

what are the details of your setup?
ill be honest with you, esp with music today, its not all about the setup! You got guys like envio, octagen, nickson, etc doing it all in the computer and they are making hit tunes! so theres proof that you do not need lotta gear to make it happen.

it took me like 2 yrs or so before i really understoood all the things that go into making a mixdown sound as good as our's do. these days bo and i sit in the studio and we have a very good idea of what the mixdown will sound like outside of the studio environment. that only comes with alot of trial and error and really understanding how your room and monitors sound as well as the basic mechanics of mixing music which are dynamics and effects.

i read lotta the tips on this thread and they are pretty accurate!
being able to breathe that 3rd dimension into the sound requires hundreds of hours of mixing stuff down.

another thing that is important to know is that you are using your gear properly and using the right gear. lotta people have tons of gear and do not know how to use it to its fullest potential.

send me some details of the gear and i can tell u .. what might be overkill or what might be really useful.

i saw some people mentioning panning in tracks..

here is a general breakdown for us that we might use on a track

kick -- dead middle
bass -- dead middle
hi hats panned hard left and right
pads -- panned 75% left and right
pads 2 -- panned hard left and right
leads -- usually centered with effects on the left and right
or vice versa

also another thing people are talkin about alot is eqing

the things which are most important to worry about esp at the early stages is too much bass on pads and leads and too much highs and mids on basses.. things like that.. a lead should be a lead not have lotta bass! or a pad same thing. if u have a pad that is bringing tons of bass into the mix -- u want to remove it.. it will effect the bass and the kick! these are the kind of things you should worry about. bringing out say 5hz in a synth to give it that effervescent feel is stuff you worry about later on.

compression

kick and bass are usually compressed! drum kit u can compress too! but you do not have too!

leads and pads are compressed
but be careful u dont overcompress because u can take the life out of the track!

hopefully some of these tips help

-dom

quote:

Originally posted by filoandperi hey man, what are the details of your setup? ill be honest with you, esp with music today, its not all about the setup! You got guys like envio, octagen, nickson, etc doing it all in the computer and they are making hit tunes! so theres proof that you do not need lotta gear to make it happen. it took me like 2 yrs or so before i really understoood all the things that go into making a mixdown sound as good as our's do. these days bo and i sit in the studio and we have a very good idea of what the mixdown will sound like outside of the studio environment. that only comes with alot of trial and error and really understanding how your room and monitors sound as well as the basic mechanics of mixing music which are dynamics and effects. i read lotta the tips on this thread and they are pretty accurate! being able to breathe that 3rd dimension into the sound requires hundreds of hours of mixing stuff down. another thing that is important to know is that you are using your gear properly and using the right gear. lotta people have tons of gear and do not know how to use it to its fullest potential. send me some details of the gear and i can tell u .. what might be overkill or what might be really useful. i saw some people mentioning panning in tracks.. here is a general breakdown for us that we might use on a track kick -- dead middle bass -- dead middle hi hats panned hard left and right pads -- panned 75% left and right pads 2 -- panned hard left and right leads -- usually centered with effects on the left and right or vice versa also another thing people are talkin about alot is eqing the things which are most important to worry about esp at the early stages is too much bass on pads and leads and too much highs and mids on basses.. things like that.. a lead should be a lead not have lotta bass! or a pad same thing. if u have a pad that is bringing tons of bass into the mix -- u want to remove it.. it will effect the bass and the kick! these are the kind of things you should worry about. bringing out say 5hz in a synth to give it that effervescent feel is stuff you worry about later on. compression kick and bass are usually compressed! drum kit u can compress too! but you do not have too! leads and pads are compressed but be careful u dont overcompress because u can take the life out of the track! hopefully some of these tips help -dom -dom

nice post!! thk you guys for the tips. I think your method for panning will be really useful for me

I have a lot of experience mixing outside of the trance genre. It all comes down to this in any style of music:

Vision -> Execution -> Arrangement

Arrangement, in the technical realm, is the single most important thing. Everything about getting a certain sound is within how you arrange your track. You could EQ, compress, or get up and walk around your chair for luck. If it's not arranged correctly with the proper layers and the perfect timing, it will not sound right. If you're at this level you should understand how to properly record and track. Although this could be a major problem for a lot of people. Even that won't ruin a dead on arrangement within reason. Everything else is icing. No formula will help you.

You'll always hear guys saying "well I can't get my bass to sound good, so let me eq the shit out of it". Wrong answer. Adjust your technique, how you're recording it and get the sound right to start with. Don't abuse EQ, compression, or reverb. For god sake we're using synths...with envelopes, ADSR, that's compression right there if you break it down and think about it. I guess it depends what sound you're after. I guess I'm just a bit of an audiophile. Compression to me is taming a completely out of control signal. Like a real bass guitar, or a real acoustic source. Synths are in control from the beginning. That's the entire nature of a synth.

Everyone has different theories and approaches. It's about developing yours.

quote:

Originally posted by alanzo ok, it might not be common practice to do this.. but it sure saves on CPU.. I use Cubase SX 2.0 - When i'm done with the mix I freeze all of the VSTis and then add FX - if I add FX while mixing or without freezing the insturments the program lags like a basterd even on my 2.8Ghz system.. so perhaps this would be more of an amateur solution to the problem then.. since most of us dont have $$ to put in to multiple PCs to spread out the CPU load..

alanzo when you say multiple PCs to spread out the CPU load, is this something Cubase SX 2 can do? Similar to 3DSMax and building a render farm on multiple computers to handle the load? I use Cubase SX 2 and have multiple PCs, some that are just sitting there and if this could be done, I'd love to do it.

Definitely nice to hear some tips from pros; thanks Filo & Peri =)

quote:

Originally posted by X-Multiply alanzo when you say multiple PCs to spread out the CPU load, is this something Cubase SX 2 can do? Similar to 3DSMax and building a render farm on multiple computers to handle the load? I use Cubase SX 2 and have multiple PCs, some that are just sitting there and if this could be done, I'd love to do it.

it's called system link or something like that
haven't tried it myself but I've heard that it's pretty effective.

I have a lot of experience mixing outside of the trance genre. It all comes down to this in any style of music:

Vision -> Execution -> Arrangement

Arrangement, in the technical realm, is the single most important thing. Everything about getting a certain sound is within how you arrange your track. You could EQ, compress, or get up and walk around your chair for luck. If it's not arranged correctly with the proper layers and the perfect timing, it will not sound right. If you're at this level you should understand how to properly record and track. Although this could be a major problem for a lot of people. Even that won't ruin a dead on arrangement within reason. Everything else is icing. No formula will help you.

You'll always hear guys saying "well I can't get my bass to sound good, so let me eq the shit out of it". Wrong answer. Adjust your technique, how you're recording it and get the sound right to start with. Don't abuse EQ, compression, or reverb. For god sake we're using synths...with envelopes, ADSR, that's compression right there if you break it down and think about it. I guess it depends what sound you're after. I guess I'm just a bit of an audiophile. Compression to me is taming a completely out of control signal. Like a real bass guitar, or a real acoustic source. Synths are in control from the beginning. That's the entire nature of a synth.

Everyone has different theories and approaches. It's about developing yours.:


Very well spoken Aaronoct -- you hit that angle of music production on the nose! This is the second part of making good music. Once you understand all the mechanics than there is this more creative and abstract side! Although I disagree with you on the compression of synths because there are tons of pads that come stock out of a synth with levels jumping all over the place! So they need compression! But generally in the mix--- you really want to compress a lead synth a little because sometimes due to the nature of synths the lead is not always volume equal or even basses for example.. you might notice that a bass sound has alot more thump and rumble on one note and less on another! this happens all too often with certain bass sounds. you really want to level them out as much as possible!

-dom

quote:

you really want to compress a lead synth a little because sometimes due to the nature of synths the lead is not always volume equal

For instance, say you have a lead that has velocity controlled resonance or filter on the patch, when you plunk down hard a couple of notes in an 8 bar riff, this could clip. Solution: Compression. Now you are taming those couple of notes and bringing the level of the rest of them up.

Mint.

quote:

Originally posted by Vizay it's called system link or something like that haven't tried it myself but I've heard that it's pretty effective.

Thanks Vizay for the info! I looked in the Cubase manual and there is a whole chapter about this. Looks like I have everything except an audio card on the 2nd computer that has digital inputs and outputs. Only my main PC has those so all I would really need to buy is a soundcard with digital inputs and outputs and 2 digital audio cables. I'm not even really maxing out my first PC but just hearing about the linking capabilities makes me want to mess around with it just to see what its like.

quote:

Originally posted by AaroNoct Arrangement, in the technical realm, is the single most important thing. Everything about getting a certain sound is within how you arrange your track.

So, how to make a good arrngement?

quote:

Originally posted by djstormrider So, how to make a good arrngement?

That's the golden question! It's difficult to answer, there's not really any hard & fast rules (well, with the exception of DJ mix in & out points). There are formulas, (like certain amounts of time to build up to a breakdown, certain amounts of time for breakdowns, big build, main part of song, etc...) but if the arrangement is too generic, it doesn't matter how good the hook or production quality is, it won't stand out. But if you make it too eratic, it will sound awkward. It should just sound natural. Try different things - but if something sounds like it's forced, try something else.

I have only learnt the basics of EQ by experimenting by my own, and I have a question for you:

Lets take the kick drum and the bass drum. I guess these can occupy the same frequencies as long as they do not "cover" each other? But what with moving basslines that cover the whole pattern, and thus also covering all the kick drum notes? I've never really thought of EQ:ing when it comes to kicks vs. bass, I've only EQ:ed away sub frequencies from leads, pads, effects etc.

Do you make basslines and leads completely differ when it comes to frequencies, I mean, do you keep the lead away from the whole frequency spectrum which is occupied by the bass? Wouldn't that make the lead sound a bit thin??

Good equalizing seems to be one of the key mysteries when it comes to music making.

quote:

Originally posted by filoandperi hey man, what are the details of your setup?

Dom, thanks for all the tips, much appreciated. BTW, I'm not busting on your setup, I'm berating my abilities . Ok, so here's the list so far:

Access Virus KC
Alesis A6 Andromeda
Novation Supernova II rack
Roland JP8080
Roland JD800
Yamaha AN1X
Electron Machinedrum
Korg MicroKontrol

Soft VSTi's:
Vanguard
FM7
NI Kontakt 1.5
Atmosphere
Reason 2.0
Rebirth

DAW:
Cubase SX 2.0.1
FL Studio
Ableton Live
Sonar 3 Producer
Buzz

PC:
Intel P4 3.06 HT
1.5 DC (dual channel) DDR RAM
3 x Seagate Cheetah 72GB Ultra 160 drives

Patching:
Edirol UM 550 MIDI
Neutrik Patchbay

Recording:
RME Multiface 96

Monitoring:
Mackie HR 824
Rolls rack mixer

So, that's my humble rig...

BTW, always wanted to find out, how did you get that sound in "Crush" - I can't even desribe it... It's a very high-pitched swoosh that comes on right at the end of build-up. I can only describe as a slash on eardrums with a razor (i mean it in a good way).

BTW - love your productions and live sets! Do you offer production/mastering lessons?


Talk to ya later!

Thanks for ur help.

quote:

BTW - love your productions and live sets! Do you offer production/mastering lessons?

Some online lessons would be great

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