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-- Recording your promo mix...would this be wrong?
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Just to give yall a quick rundown....
demo = demonstration, a demonstration of your talent

This is not something that should be practiced or edited if you want it to be in the true form. I don't rehearse, plan or redo my sets when I record them. I just let them flow. If they suck, they suck. But it is a demonstration of what I can do. As I get better, my sets get better. I'm not worried about them sounding perfect.

Now I am not anyone of authority that has a say as to what is right or what is wrong. This is my opinion. It just so happens that my opinion is always right....

quote:

Originally posted by jdat Stop lying to yourselves; Just do it whatever way you prefer. Some people say " It's cheating " if you do it digitally; But playing the same set 20 times till you get it right how is that not the exact same thing ( cheating )?

Because one is cheating.

The other is what's known as 'practicing.'

Bottom line, there is no point whatsoever in falsifying your demo CD. If you can't mix a 45 minute demo (I don't know many promoters who want to hear anything much longer than that) without any mistakes, then you're screwed if you go up in front of a crowd.

Why?

Because in your bedroom, you're in control; you have everything set exactly the way you like it. In a club setting, there's flashing lights, girls showing you their tits, idiot ginos bothering you with requests, people bumping into your decks, malfunctioning sound systems... the list goes on. If you can't do it by yourself when you're in control of the situation, you don't have much hope in front of a crowd.

Accordingly, record your demo CD. If you screw up, then go back to the drawing board. Figure out where you made the mistake, and why. Is it because you know you have only one record left to mix, and you get sloppy? Is it nervousness? Something else?

A DJ is, above all other things, a performer. It may not be fair, but all performers must have one thing in common: no matter what else is going on, you have to be able to walk out onstage (into the booth, whatever), and perform at the absolute top level of your skills, every single time. If you have to rely on re-editing your set after the fact, then you are quite simply not ready to perform. You can't count on editing your demo, and then suddenly being able to pull it out of your ass when someone hires you and is paying you money to do a job. That's leaving aside the very realy question of the ravers/clubgoers, who will be expecting a certain degree of skill.

At the end of the day, who would you hire? Someone who sends you a demo, and can then walk into your club and lay down an equally smokin set, or someone who had to go back and edit out the mistakes, and loses you a lot of money?

I have a few cds i am very proud of the latest is the last one i recorded live just for a demo cd to give around. I did try it about 8 times but i finally did get it right and i nkow in the end that i can reproduce this in a real time club enviorment. I say practice practice. Who knows what you will do in a real situation if you haven't built those skills to back up your demo.

Ps my demo is in my sig. l8z tempest

hack the promo mix, then when you cant do it on the decks, make up an excuse!

This is my "8th" "take" on making a demo mix- read and learn!

AA- You should be prepared to produce quality demos as well as live performances. If you can't produce any of them, especially a live performace, then you should not even be making a demo to hand out to a club because you are not ready for a live gig. Do we all agree?

BB- With that said, go ahead and make a demo whether it be live or pc. The bottom line is that it goes beyond cheating or not. That is not the reality of things. The reality has several folds-or has several meanings which many of you hit on.

If you are making a cd demo and self promoting yourself that means-

1- you are not at the level of a super star or not satisfied with your current residency.

2- the club manager or the one hiring for a gig, knows that or else he would be talking to you personally or to your manager and not listening to your demo!

3- what is on your demo set is somewhat of a direct refection of your live set. Why? and why not?-

4- you should practice before both a demo and a live set.

A- considering #1 if you do not practice before a live set, you are a dumb ass. Even the hottest dj will practice mixes either that day or day before just to warm up. What do you think MJ did before game time?

B- believe or not, mixing one or two songs will increase your mixing skills before gig time which, will better your overall mixing for that gig because its about getting use to the equipment, working the hand movements and training your brain. Just like pre-scratching before a live set- your hands get looser and function better. Practice no more than 5 hours before a set to stay fresh. Anything more than that, you will lose the touch and or forget your set. (It happens when your are nervous)

5-spending 5 hrs on a 45 minute set with 10 songs for a demo is fine. But that only means you will have to spend another 5 hrs for a different set of 10 songs- Don't you see a problem there? (means you are not ready)

6-What you may consider to be a flaw may not be considered in the eyes of the manager, much less the crowd. You are a dj, you analyze, non djs don't. (as much)

A- You could have a flawless mix but make some errors live. That's fine, why, because considering you are good enough for the gig, the errors will be minor and not apparent to anyone else but you.

7- Considering you understand #1 and A,B, you will make mistakes but the only ones that will notice is you and that dj standing over your shoulder wishing he was as hot as you. Why? Resident djs have nothing to prove but maintain or raise their level of performance. You with a demo, has something to prove and it better show on the mix and live!

8- End result- To a certain extent, if he is worth a manager or club promoter, he is going to want fabulous material because he is using you as a way of promoting his club. You don't promote a special guest dj unless you want to improve or maintain a certain status. If he likes what he hears, that means you are his meat puppet to promote his club. You get yours as well so it works both ways. Just make sure your live set is equal to or better than what is on the demo because that is all he wants.

BOTTOM LINE- LIKE EVERYONE STATED IN THE THREADS PRIOR AND IF YOU SKIP EVERYTHING AND JUST READ THIS ONE SENSE, THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD READ- If you can't match what is on your mix equally or better, than you should not be making demos to hand out to clubs! See above- AATHIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD READ- If you can't match what is on your mix equally or better, than you should not be making demos to hand out to clubs! See above- AA

If you can't mix a demo CD in you home, how can you expect to do it perfectly in a club? So if a promoter gets a demo CD with a trainwreck on it, then that DJ shouldn't play in a club until they can do it right.

If you can't do a Demo CD perfectly, whatever, a few mistakes won't take away from it if you have some awesome mixes, good flow, and excellent track selection. If you have a really bad beatmatching problem, you should probably practice some more before going in front of a live audience...

So YES, it is cheating to edit it...

quote:

Originally posted by skytribe Because one is cheating. The other is what's known as 'practicing.'

I finally thought of a better way to say this:

If you practice like hell and get your sets tight, you have improved your skills, and therefore your marketability and future income (because let's face it, that's what it boils down to).

If you edit your demos to make yourself sound better than you are, you're freezing your skills.

without reading the entire thread, just the first few posts:

if you are sending a demo to a club that is done on PC and completely flawless, it isn't a true showcase of your talent on the decks. if you can't get it flawless with the decks then practice some more. you cant send in a demo that you have had 7 takes on 1 mix either, you don't get that chance in a club.

if you play on decks in the club, record the demo on decks. if you are going to use final scratch or whatever in the club, do the demo on that.

its like asking to taste a wine at a restaurant, and them giving you a completely different wine to sample before having the bottle

quote:

Originally posted by stupidisco just know that while you are using your "pro tools" to create that perfect mix, there is a dj out there that can do that on the wheels of steel. feels shitty huh?

Agreed.
Most promoters are actually more interested in your tune selection and feel anyways. In the end it all comes down to who you know and not what you know so this would be a pretty pointless exercise in that respect, nothing stopping you from doing it for your own listening pleasure though.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by dknylady who told you that demos had to be 100% perfect? what a silly statement. a demo is a showcase of your skills with spinning, not how great you are at splicing sound waves in a computer program. yeah basically if they get a perfect demo they are gonna think 2 things: 1. you cheated or did something fake to make it perfect 2. you are a wonderful dj and they will expect you to spin perfect when you go live. i never edit my mixes, or demos. i am also a perfectionist, i understand your problem. but i just am waiting for the day when i spin that perfect mix...

I have to agree completely on this one.

I recently put together an exclusive demo for an upcoming event that I'm booked for (each ticket comes with a CD), and there are a couple of transitions I'm not entirely happy (basically the beats slip and there's an audible correction). That said, it shows that I'm human, and more importantly it also shows that I can hear a screw-up and fix it...

I'm a total perfectionist when it comes to recording demos (which is why I don't usually record them....), and I'm also quite critical of myself when I'm mixing, but I don't think that perfection is mandatory for demo material.

Kibon, I have heard the stuff you put out. It�s really good. And you�re right, a slightly flawed mix does show your human. Anyone can do a perfect mix on the computer using Acid or something like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Dirk W. Kibon, I have heard the stuff you put out. It�s really good. And you�re right, a slightly flawed mix does show your human. Anyone can do a perfect mix on the computer using Acid or something like that.

Thank you sir.

That's actually why I usually prefer to host the occasional recording of a live set, I think it's more representative overall of how I would usually perform. Sort of similar to a live recording of a headliner being more interesting to listen to than a studio produced compilation (i.e. listening to the recordings of Radio 1 broadcasts).

quote:

Originally posted by DJ_Octane Oh yeah, I forgot. Whatever you decide to do...just make sure you can back it up.

agreed. doing a mix on the computer might give promoters a false sense of your skill. true track selection is important, but id think that mixing skill and creativity is equal parts..


leX MIc cHekA

For FUCK sakes! Yes, do it on the computer, all the biggest DJ's in the world do so why shouldn�t you?

I think its about the end product. I really don�t give a shit if some DJ is mixing on vinyl rather then some computer, rather I would prefer more DJ's use a computer.

quote:

Originally posted by hooknife For FUCK sakes! Yes, do it on the computer, all the biggest DJ's in the world do so why shouldn�t you? I think its about the end product. I really don�t give a shit if some DJ is mixing on vinyl rather then some computer, rather I would prefer more DJ's use a computer.

Hmmmm, I have to say that I don't really agree with this one.

If your goal is to produce a compilation, then yes, why not pull out all the stops to make it sound as good as possible.

But if you are assembling a demo to show the local promoters what you are capable of, producing the whole thing on a computer sort of defeats the purpose of the demo...

quote:

Originally posted by hooknife For FUCK sakes! Yes, do it on the computer, all the biggest DJ's in the world do so why shouldn�t you? I think its about the end product. I really don�t give a shit if some DJ is mixing on vinyl rather then some computer, rather I would prefer more DJ's use a computer.

Dude, I think you're confusing 'demo' and 'compilation.'

What we're talking about here is a CD you send out to club owners/promoters to showcase your live mixing skills, in order to get gigs. Anyone who thinks they can get away with mixing one of those in a computer had better have the skills to back it up once they're in the club or at the party, or they're not going to get very many gigs. Of course, if you have the skills to back it up, why on earth would you need to do it in the computer?

What you're talking about are compilations and mix CD's, which are often mixed in something like ProTools, just to make it perfect for the masses. I don't much like that either, as there doesn't seem to be much point to it. But that, at least, isn't cheating: by and large, mix CD's are made by DJ's who've already proven they can play live (except, of course, Chris Sheppard, but we won't go there). Demo CD's, by their very nature, are not made by DJ's whose name are known.

quote:

[i][b] But if you are assembling a demo to show the local promoters what you are capable of, producing the whole thing on a computer sort of defeats the purpose of the demo...

I know what you are saying believe me, you seem like you are one of those hard chargers and believe in honest work.

Alot of you are missing the point, but there is truth in all. It all comes down to ability.

First and foremost, if you were not ready for a live gig, you would not even be handing out a demo- right?

If I am in a office and fighting for the executive position, I am going to do all it takes to get to that position because I know that when I get there, I will be able to produce quality material and perform well. If my peers are using typewriters for their resumes, I will use wordperfect for f#ck sakes and get that sh!t looking hot. Once I get to the top, as long as I have the ability to do what I did before, I will stay there or go higher.

But in reality, its marketing! The idea is to give the best quality work you have to offer providing that you can equal it live- period! A promoter can only listen to the beat matching and quality of sound movement- that's all! Is your music blending nice and are your beats on point. That's all that is available for him to make his assement. He has nothing else. So, once you get the job, it over. What you do from there is basically starting all over.

He knows that you are in your own bedroom or whatever and expects perfection on that cd. He also knows that when you come to his place, using his equipment, it might take time to get adjusted and you will mess up. But you should be professional enough to recover properly.

That is by getting the crowd involved and carrying the set with your tunes no matter if your cd was perfect but you are a little off beat live.- That stuff happens. Most great djs will tell you that it took years to have a flawless gig!

The key word is presentation.

And the key question is do you have the skill to do it again pc or no pc?

No. There's a big difference here. If you move into the executive office, you have time to adjust, to get up to speed.

When you step behind the decks, you have two hours. That's it. And if you fuck up, if you don't have the skill to back up the demo you created on your PC (and again, I ask, if you do have the skill, why are you using a PC? You have the skill or you don't. If you need a PC to make your demo flawless, you don't have the skill to play live), you're going to be doing all of the following, to a greater or lesser extent:

1) Screwing your chance of ever getting booked by that promoter again, as well as any promoters s/he knows.
2) Screwing up the night for a bunch of people who want to have a good time.
3) Likely hurting the promoter's chances of a big turnout at their next event.

This entire industry is word of mouth. People hear about a DJ who fucked up, they're not just going to avoid that DJ. They're going to avoid things associated with that DJ, which means the promoter as well. Even really big name DJ's get avoided if they fuck up too much. Anyone even remember Keoki anymore? Everyone loses because of your inability to recognize your shortcomings.


Your demo must show what you can do reliably, live and on the fly, in (often) poor lighting conditions, while under stress. If you need a PC to make your demo good, when you're recording in your controlled environment, without interruptions, and without stress, then you are simply not ready to perform. Period.

Put it this way. Angela (as we'll call her) is auditioning for a part in a musical. The producers ask for demo tapes before the auditions, so she sends hers in. Lucky for her, Angela is friends with someone at Tranceaddict who puts her demo in his PC, and corrects all of her mistakes, making sure that the demo is perfectly in key, even if she wasn't. Unfortunately, Angela doesn't get the part. Why? Because at the audition, she couldn't hit a note with a baseball bat. Why? Because instead of practicing, she used computer trickery to make herself sound better than she actually is.


To summarize the summary: If you can't record a practically flawless demo, you can't play live.

ok quick question what about when you edit your levels afterward so the mix sounds a bit clearer.Kind of like remastering the mix so it has a bit more clarity.Is this cheating?I think it would be a good idea nonetheless as it would make your demo crisper than the rest he gets.

quote:

Originally posted by dj prometheus ok quick question what about when you edit your levels afterward so the mix sounds a bit clearer.Kind of like remastering the mix so it has a bit more clarity.Is this cheating?I think it would be a good idea nonetheless as it would make your demo crisper than the rest he gets.

i would say that depends on the quality of your gain control in the first place. its fine to master it a little to make it sound a little nicer (when you play in a club the sound system should be set up to sound good anyway), but if your tracks have drastic drops and rises in volume then its time to re-record

cheating would be to alter the volume in each part of the set, to make it all the same level. if you do this, you will never learn your gain control properly, and that is an important part of playing club gigs

quote:

Originally posted by KB2 I know what you are saying believe me, you seem like you are one of those hard chargers and believe in honest work. Alot of you are missing the point, but there is truth in all. It all comes down to ability. First and foremost, if you were not ready for a live gig, you would not even be handing out a demo- right? If I am in a office and fighting for the executive position, I am going to do all it takes to get to that position because I know that when I get there, I will be able to produce quality material and perform well. If my peers are using typewriters for their resumes, I will use wordperfect for f#ck sakes and get that sh!t looking hot. Once I get to the top, as long as I have the ability to do what I did before, I will stay there or go higher. But in reality, its marketing! The idea is to give the best quality work you have to offer providing that you can equal it live- period! A promoter can only listen to the beat matching and quality of sound movement- that's all! Is your music blending nice and are your beats on point. That's all that is available for him to make his assement. He has nothing else. So, once you get the job, it over. What you do from there is basically starting all over. He knows that you are in your own bedroom or whatever and expects perfection on that cd. He also knows that when you come to his place, using his equipment, it might take time to get adjusted and you will mess up. But you should be professional enough to recover properly. That is by getting the crowd involved and carrying the set with your tunes no matter if your cd was perfect but you are a little off beat live.- That stuff happens. Most great djs will tell you that it took years to have a flawless gig!

You are right on! Could not have said it better myself!!!

PERFECT!

This is not only a hobby its a job for some people and when it comes to getting work you MUST have a kill or be killed attitude.

Lets think about this for a second...If both you and I are trying to get a DJ spot and politics are not involved, another words, you don�t know the promoter and I don�t either, then I tell you what...you better use a computer to make your demo because I promise I did. Its not a fair world out there and I�m well aware of this but like I said above, kill or be killed.

fyi...if I got the job I would also be able to back up my demo.

quote:

Originally posted by hooknife fyi...if I got the job I would also be able to back up my demo.

Then answer my question: If you have the skill to spin that well live, why would you need to resort to editing your demo on a PC?

Fact is, any edited mix is always going to be better than what you can do live. (This doesn't go for every DJ; I'm talking about DJ's who are at a point where they still need to send out demo CD's).

Sure, it's a cutthroat business. But if you actually have the chops, then you don't need to edit your demo on a PC. If you don't have the chops, editing makes you look like you do, and you will make a fool out of yourself when you get into the DJ booth at the gig.

Either way, there's no point.

As someone who was doing non-linear digital mixing with Mixmeister prior to taking the plunge and buying turntables, it might sound suprising, but I think that the quality of my mixing is generally better now on turntables than it was in the digital realm.

There are of course downsides, such as a single screw-up ruining your entire recording if you are striving for perfection, but I don't even bother with digital mixes at this point, just don't have the interest in doing them.

With regards to the executive job analogy - sure, pull out all the stops in order to both land the job and impress everyone once you are there. But using a computer mixed compilation for demo purposes is akin to padding your resume with fake employment history. It might land you the job, but it can land you in pretty deep shit.

quote:

Originally posted by skytribe Then answer my question: If you have the skill to spin that well live, why would you need to resort to editing your demo on a PC? Fact is, any edited mix is always going to be better than what you can do live. (This doesn't go for every DJ; I'm talking about DJ's who are at a point where they still need to send out demo CD's). Sure, it's a cutthroat business. But if you actually have the chops, then you don't need to edit your demo on a PC. If you don't have the chops, editing makes you look like you do, and you will make a fool out of yourself when you get into the DJ booth at the gig. Either way, there's no point.

Answer to your question: I do it because it makes my demos sound the best possible. No other reason.

I have been DJ'ing for 12 years and I am very confident in my skills with mixing live but I am always able to make a better mix on the computer. I know that a lot of kids on this board don�t think its "cool" but I think they miss the point. I'm trying to get hired because I feel that if I can mix one time for the promoter live then I have a good chance of being invited back.

So let me put it another way, I just want one chance and a great demo is what will most likely give me that chance.

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