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Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by d!abolic This should send a very strong message to the terrorists. I wouldn't be surprised if they started being a lot more secretive now, as publically pointing out their leaders just to have them killed weeks later isn't exactly a solid strategy. Link

"This should send a very strong message to the terrorists"

If we should send a strong message to terrorists who will send a message to Israel? The second biggest State Terrosists in the world!!

Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by sufee_b "This should send a very strong message to the terrorists" If we should send a strong message to terrorists who will send a message to Israel? The second biggest State Terrosists in the world!!

I second that!!

Re: Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer I second that!!

why don't you pack up ur stuff and go protect palestinian territories then? its very easy to ran ur mouth when ur ass is in warmth place and you re not scared to blown up in ur bus on the way to the work.

those territories are NOT occuped,they are legally bought ,this is a fact,palestinian ppl sell their land to others,others sell it to israel - simple.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer you are absolutely right on that,Death is the last thing that they are afraid of,so I dont killing them wont stop anything but making more hatered toward Isreal,but as you mentioned already westerners simply dont understand this idealogy,they just call everyone terrorist.

Common man, take it easy here no need to be rude! everyone is untitled to their opinion, if you don't like it just continue and ignore, jeeez

as for the conflict, whats the point of arguing about a proper solutions, or what is right and what is wrong, I have good friend
who moved away for a bit to Isreal, I think and worry sometimes for him, he's into journalism, and he at one point decided to to a little project on his own, he went into the palestinian land and intereviewed some of the people there, I will not comment what i saw on that video, nor what he told me, but in the end both sides have their wrongs, so finding a solution is extremely hard. We no nothing about what really happens there, all we know is what the media tells us, so why argue about it for?

Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by sufee_b "This should send a very strong message to the terrorists" If we should send a strong message to terrorists who will send a message to Israel? The second biggest State Terrosists in the world!!

Wow, what a clever little one-liner. Obviously, with your superior intellect, you don't even NEED an argument. And all this time I thought I knew something, you've proven me wrong.

Honestly now, if you're going to make bullshit claims like this (I assume that the "first biggest" is the USA, since anti-American rhetoric comes hand-in-hand with anti-Israel rhetoric, and I won't even bother to get into detail on the hypocrisy of America-bashing coming from a Canadian), at least have the decency to provide even a modicum of support for that assertion. Like I said before, I know this isn't a debate forum, but I really don't think it's a place to foam at the mouth and scream vacuous invectives either.

It's funny how the Israel supporters who actually have something to say (whether or not it's correct) are always accused of spewing rhetoric, where the majority of Palestine supporters are content to run off one-liners just like this one: "Israel is a terrorist". "Sharon is a terrorist." "This will only spill more blood." "You can never defeat the resistance." Blah blah blah blah, the only legitimate arguments I've ever seen are from Cyrus King and 2 or 3 others in the poli forum - don't you people have anything better to do?

ive seen enough of this crap back in ireland feuds between religions,the same war has been goin on since jesus was about and if you ask me personly we will never see an end to it,not in our lifetime anyway BUT does sharon not realise that when you murder 1 of these guys that you make them a martyr and that there is always someone just as eager and just as crazy to take his place?

Re: Re: Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by Desp why don't you pack up ur stuff and go protect palestinian territories then? its very easy to ran ur mouth when ur ass is in warmth place and you re not scared to blown up in ur bus on the way to the work.

why dont you go back to Isreal and join IDF then?the most fucked up army in the world!!!

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Originally posted by djeso Common man, take it easy here no need to be rude! everyone is untitled to their opinion, if you don't like it just continue and ignore, jeeez

lets see here,was it me who started calling people losers or....

I really don't have the time to get into a great big discussion and argue against Diginut point by point. I just want to point out that I am amazed at how few people get the following simple point. Palestinians use "terrorist" tactics because that's all that's available to them. If they had the ability to form a modern, powerful army and fight Israel that way, they would. So, it's ridiculous to call people's only way of resistance "terrorism". Terrorism is the "killing of innocent civilians for political purposes", whether it's done by an army or suicide bomber. I don't need to mention how many innocent civilians Israel's army has killed in their attacks, justifying it by saying "well, we were looking for terrorists".

If the US invaded Canada, and being as inferior militarily as we are, our only way of fighting them was by forming underground resistance and targetted suicide attacks against the Americans, would we be "terrorists"?

Re: Re: Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by Desp why don't you pack up ur stuff and go protect palestinian territories then? its very easy to ran ur mouth when ur ass is in warmth place and you re not scared to blown up in ur bus on the way to the work. those territories are NOT occuped,they are legally bought ,this is a fact,palestinian ppl sell their land to others,others sell it to israel - simple.

You are lost and extremely wrong. Much of the issue revoloves around the illegal confiscations of palestinian land, demolishon of their orchards and homes, and systemic construction of jewish only roads facilities and neighborhoods in the very place where those palestinians used to live. Not only that ... THEY HAVE THE REST OF ISREAL TO LIVE IN... why do they chose to further inhabit the land that is left for the palestinians????? But you wouldnt understand that becuase your zionist infested mind tends to make you greedy.

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Originally posted by Arcticboy If the US invaded Canada, and being as inferior militarily as we are, our only way of fighting them was by forming underground resistance and targetted suicide attacks against the Americans, would we be "terrorists"?

good point,as Bill Maher says it: "when we attack them it is called war but when they attack us it is terrorism".

but you see alot of people dont understand this,and their brain is filled with garbage from CNN and it is hard for them to see the reality.I feel sorry for those people.

Didn't we already learn our lesson from the LAST thread?

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Originally posted by Arcticboy I really don't have the time to get into a great big discussion and argue against Diginut point by point. I just want to point out that I am amazed at how few people get the following simple point. Palestinians use "terrorist" tactics because that's all that's available to them. If they had the ability to form a modern, powerful army and fight Israel that way, they would. So, it's ridiculous to call people's only way of resistance "terrorism". Terrorism is the "killing of innocent civilians for political purposes", whether it's done by an army or suicide bomber. I don't need to mention how many innocent civilians Israel's army has killed in their attacks, justifying it by saying "well, we were looking for terrorists". If the US invaded Canada, and being as inferior militarily as we are, our only way of fighting them was by forming underground resistance and targetted suicide attacks against the Americans, would we be "terrorists"?

And this argument means what exactly?

First of all, this addresses absolutely nothing in my original post. I realize you may be too "busy" to address it "point by point", but the fact is that you have not addressed a single one of the points I expressed. You merely came up with a straw-man argument deploring sentiment that's vaguely similar to my point of view.

In fact, it's not just a straw-man argument, it makes use of whole host of fallacious logic, only 3 types of which I'm going to bother to discuss:

1. The "False Dichotomy" or "Black and White" fallacy. Basically this term refers to an instance of faulty logic which claims "P can only be A or B, and it is not B, so it must be A." The logic is considered fallacious when it ignores a third option, C. In your case, your claim is that Hamas terrorists can only fight either with advanced heavy weapons or with traditional means of terrorism. But you ignore the third option, which is that they don't have to kill anyone. Many nations have been brutally conquered and oppressed to a far greater extent of magnitude than Palestine, and they don't systematically kill civilians in order to get "their" land back.

2. Attacking the person, or ad hominem tu quoque. A term used to refer to mounting an argument against a person by claiming that they don't "practice what they preach." The claim here is that we should not deplore Hamas terrorists because the IDF has committed similar acts. This fallacy is particularly disturbing in this instance, because it comes from the same people who insist that Israel should withdraw from occupied territory and withdraw IDF forces despite the ongoing threat of Palestinian violence. So in essence, you say that Israel should practice what it preaches, but Palestine does not have to.

In this case, I also call it the Ostrich argument. Why do I call it the Ostrich argument? Because it bears a remarkable likeness to burying your head in the ground and just ignoring whatever you don't want to see as if it somehow isn't there. Turning a blind eye to the nationwide glorification of martyrdom, the hate textbooks, the financial incentives to families of suicide bombers, as if it all has no relevance to the issue and that the terrorists only do what they do because they "have" to.

3. The Straw Man. In case there is anyone on the planet who doesn't know what a straw man is yet, it's a form of "logic" where you take someone's argument, construct a considerably weaker argument out of it (the "straw man"), and then attack the weak form of the argument. Suffice it to say that nobody here really cares about the means in which Hamas kills Israeli civilians, or whether they do it with suicide bombers or heavy weapons. The problem here is that they are killing civilians, not just as collateral damage but as deliberate targets. This IS terrorism, and it bears little to no resemblance to counterterrorist acts by the IDF which take out a few civilian casualties. It's easy to be a hippie and cry over the loss of life, but it's different when you live out there and know that somebody's going to die anyway.

In this case, you make a second straw man argument relating to the US invading Canada, which is so totally false an analogy it's not even worth discussing. Suffice it to say, Palestine did not even exist as a state before Israel sprung up, and Israel was weak as a kitten in the early days (pre-1948) when it started to be attacked by the people now known as Palestinians. This is hardly similar to a well-established country attacking its stated ally north of the border.

Hamas is a terrorist organization with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel. It says so unequivocally in their own charter. The IDF, on the other hand, may have a few shakey policies but certainly and without question acknowledges Palestine's right to exist as a state.

Once again, I get tired of the rhetoric here. If anyone has an actual argument to present, then be my guest. But the fact of the matter is that Hamas has always chickened out after seeing Israel target its leadership, and I have no doubt that it will continue to do so.

Hardcore trancer, I've never watched CNN in my life. You've yet to come up with a single argument that does not take the form of a sweeping generalization or an ad hominem attack.

Re: Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by DigiNut Wow, what a clever little one-liner. Obviously, with your superior intellect, you don't even NEED an argument. And all this time I thought I knew something, you've proven me wrong. Honestly now, if you're going to make bullshit claims like this (I assume that the "first biggest" is the USA, since anti-American rhetoric comes hand-in-hand with anti-Israel rhetoric, and I won't even bother to get into detail on the hypocrisy of America-bashing coming from a Canadian), at least have the decency to provide even a modicum of support for that assertion. Like I said before, I know this isn't a debate forum, but I really don't think it's a place to foam at the mouth and scream vacuous invectives either. It's funny how the Israel supporters who actually have something to say (whether or not it's correct) are always accused of spewing rhetoric, where the majority of Palestine supporters are content to run off one-liners just like this one: "Israel is a terrorist". "Sharon is a terrorist." "This will only spill more blood." "You can never defeat the resistance." Blah blah blah blah, the only legitimate arguments I've ever seen are from Cyrus King and 2 or 3 others in the poli forum - don't you people have anything better to do?

Again thats ALL opinion, let me re-phrase it.... you like Cyrus's argument better. And rhetoric works both ways.

And Israeli's do have a fear of suicide bombings everyday and that is sad. But look at the OTHER SIDE FOR ONCE. What about the fear of having your house bull dozed, or being snipered by an Israeli soldier "accidently", or being ran over by a bull dozer alive like Rachel Corrie, or living in a building with 350 people and having the Israeli military drop a missle on the whole building JUST TO KILL ONE MISERABLE PERSON!

Re: Re: Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by sufee_b Again thats ALL opinion, let me re-phrase it.... you like Cyrus's argument better. And rhetoric works both ways. And Israeli's do have a fear of suicide bombings everyday and that is sad. But look at the OTHER SIDE FOR ONCE. What about the fear of having your house bull dozed, or being snipered by an Israeli soldier "accidently", or being ran over by a bull dozer alive like Rachel Corrie, or living in a building with 350 people and having the Israeli military drop a missle on the whole building JUST TO KILL ONE MISERABLE PERSON!

Dont you know??Isreal is doing all this to protect itelf!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by sufee_b And Israeli's do have a fear of suicide bombings everyday and that is sad. But look at the OTHER SIDE FOR ONCE. What about the fear of having your house bull dozed

Most of those bulldozed houses have turned out to be "nests" for suicide bombers, or at least the houses of Hamas terrorists.

And while I don't necessarily agree with a policy of bulldozing the houses of suicide bombers as a form of collective punishment, it is all they can do to offset the collective reward ("martyrdom payments") offered by Arafat. That's not necessarily a justification for what Israel does, but let's put it this way - if you don't have any suicide bombers in the family, you have nothing to fear.

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or being snipered by an Israeli soldier "accidently"

Okay, now you're going overboard. Innocents do get caught in the crossfire, for sure, but I have NEVER heard of a SNIPER "accidentally" hitting the wrong target. The whole point of a sniper is a precision attack!

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or being ran over by a bull dozer alive like Rachel Corrie

Alright - like I said, shit happens sometimes, and I never said that the Palestinians had excellent living conditions. Israeli occupation is an oppressive environment, no doubt, but you're going overboard with the rest of your criticism.

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or living in a building with 350 people and having the Israeli military drop a missle on the whole building JUST TO KILL ONE MISERABLE PERSON!

Yes, that would be frightening, if it had ever actually happened.

While I'm sure many of you would LIKE it to be a "matter of opinion" whether or not someone's post has any sense to it, all you really need is an elementary-school-level class in logic to realize that NOT everything is a matter of opinion. Yes, the I/P debate does indeed have many subjective aspects to it, but it's not difficult for any rational person to see that whiney one-liners are not valid arguments.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Dont you know??Isreal is doing all this to protect itelf!!

Don't you know?? Palestine is bombing school buses to defend itself against the Israeli army!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by DigiNut Okay, now you're going overboard. Innocents do get caught in the crossfire, for sure, but I have NEVER heard of a SNIPER "accidentally" hitting the wrong target. The whole point of a sniper is a precision attack!

Brian Avery - "accidently" shot by sniper
http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/...brianavery.html

Thomas Hurndell - "accidently" shot by sniper
http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/...om_hurndall.pdf

Do you want me to extend the list to 1,237...becausee i could.

And here are some stats:

The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $568,744 per day to Palestinian NGO�s.

Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

943 Israelis and 2,828 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000

6,302 Israelis and 25,484 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000

The Israeli unemployment rate is 10.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 37-67%

106 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 535 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

1 Israeli home has been destroyed by Palestinians and 2,202 Palestinian homes have been completely destroyed (14,436 partially destroyed) since September 29, 2000.

60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by DigiNut Yes, that would be frightening, if it had ever actually happened. While I'm sure many of you would LIKE it to be a "matter of opinion" whether or not someone's post has any sense to it, all you really need is an elementary-school-level class in logic to realize that NOT everything is a matter of opinion. Yes, the I/P debate does indeed have many subjective aspects to it, but it's not difficult for any rational person to see that whiney one-liners are not valid arguments.

"if it had ever actually happened."
7 times my friend!!!

"all you really need is an elementary-school-level class in logic to realize that NOT everything is a matter of opinion."

Thats funny, you're telling me i need schooling on the subject... well tell that to the Canadian and US Gov't that chose my panel to speak to +3000 Gov't memebers and public on the subject

Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by d!abolic This should send a very strong message to the terrorists.

which message?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by DigiNut Don't you know?? Palestine is bombing school buses to defend itself against the Israeli army!!

If it is not fair game,perhapes you should give the Palastine and army as big as Isreal,then it'll be a fair game.

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Originally posted by DigiNut And this argument means what exactly? First of all, this addresses absolutely nothing in my original post. I realize you may be too "busy" to address it "point by point", but the fact is that you have not addressed a single one of the points I expressed. You merely came up with a straw-man argument deploring sentiment that's vaguely similar to my point of view.

Dude, my post was not aimed at you at all, so chill. It was a general statement aimed to all those who talk about "terrorists" and what they deserve.

One point though. It is difficult not to see your total bias (which you also admitted to) on this issue from your ability to easily brush aside killing of civilians by Israeli's as "that's all they can do" to get the bad guys. I wonder if you have the same view towards the Palestinian suicide bombers who feel that "that's all they can do". I personally don't condone either, but I will not label one as terrorist, as the pro-israeli RHETORIC seems to like to do.

This will be my last post as I don't find it useful to debate unless the people debating are doing so in good faith, with the possiblity that they would change their minds if they hear good arguments. And yes, I AM too busy to write an essay here like your posts.

By the way, sufee_b, you post was brilliant.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New Hamas Leader Killed by Israel!

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Originally posted by sufee_b Do you want me to extend the list to 1,237...becausee i could.

By all means, because that number sounds utterly ridiculous. I wouldn't mind seeing a few from documented sources as well, not that I doubt the veracity of these "first hand accounts" but some non-partisan sources would be nice.

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And here are some stats: The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $568,744 per day to Palestinian NGO�s.

It's clearly obvious that the US isn't literally giving them $15 million each day, do we have any information on how this statistic was calculated and what its based on?

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Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

Oh that's interesting... I could have sworn that resolution 242, the only resolution actually passed by the security council, targeted both of them. The rest of the resolutions are General Assembly resolutions, and I don't even want to get started on how "level-headed" those are.

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943 Israelis and 2,828 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000 6,302 Israelis and 25,484 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000 ... 106 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 535 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

Interesting statistics, but let's look at them in more detail:

• Approximately 80% of Israeli deaths were noncombatants; approximately 30% of Palestinian deaths were noncombatants
  
• 25% of Israeli deaths are noncombatant women; 3% of Palestinian deaths are noncombatant women
  
• 25% of Israeli deaths are people over 45; 3% of Palestinian deaths are people over 45
  
• "Children" in your statistic refers to age 17 and under; the majority of Palestinian children cited by this statistic are in fact teenage boys over the age of 11. Not sure about the Israeli statistic but I remember hearing it was about 50% over age 11.
  
• The cited statistics do not specify how or why these people died and the studies which grouped them did not take this into account. At one point you actually state that your statistic reflects Palestinians "killed by Israelis" and Israelis "killed by Palestinians", but this is in fact not the case at all, those numbers are just overall deaths, and they include:
  - At least one instance of an intra-Palestinian scuffle involving no Israelis whatsoever, which killed several hundred Palestinians and injured many more;
  - Several groupings of long Islamic names that are commonly thought to be the same person;
  - The "martyrs" themselves, or "attempted" martyrs who failed to actually kill any Israelis, which comprises a hefty chunk of the dead Palestinian "children".

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The Israeli unemployment rate is 10.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 37-67%

Yes and almost everyone in the other UAE countries is employed. That rate is pretty typical of all the Islamic theocracies in the middle east. As for Israel's unemployment rate, I think it's great how it's actually lower than several countries in North America and Europe. It's great that they're doing so well, despite being in a neverending war zone.

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60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements.

That seems to go without saying, since Palestinians don't have the capability to "confiscate" Israeli land. Additionally you call it "confiscated" land which is a heavily loaded version of the more realistic "militarily occupied" land. The occupation, however, is not illegal, and words like "confiscated" only serve to confuse the real issues.

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"if it had ever actually happened." 7 times my friend!!!

You are telling me that 7 times, Israel has killed over 350 inhabitants of a single building in order to target a single person? PROVE IT!

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Thats funny, you're telling me i need schooling on the subject... well tell that to the Canadian and US Gov't that chose my panel to speak to +3000 Gov't memebers and public on the subject

I'd very much like to tell that to them. Care to give me some contact info?

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer If it is not fair game,perhapes you should give the Palastine and army as big as Isreal,then it'll be a fair game.

And exactly what would that accomplish? Simply because the "game" isn't "fair" does not for a moment imply that they should be playing it at all.

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Originally posted by Arcticboy One point though. It is difficult not to see your total bias (which you also admitted to) on this issue from your ability to easily brush aside killing of civilians by Israeli's as "that's all they can do" to get the bad guys. I wonder if you have the same view towards the Palestinian suicide bombers who feel that "that's all they can do". I personally don't condone either, but I will not label one as terrorist, as the pro-israeli RHETORIC seems to like to do. This will be my last post as I don't find it useful to debate unless the people debating are doing so in good faith, with the possiblity that they would change their minds if they hear good arguments. And yes, I AM too busy to write an essay here like your posts.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but as you can plainly see I'm one of the few people in here that actually bothers to form an argument rather than running off one-liners. I would change my mind if I heard a good argument, and I have several times in the past in the poli forum, but I still have yet to hear one single, good, solid argument. Perhaps you'd prefer if I argued like hardcore trancer? That's definitely not "rhetoric", right?

I have never once labelled Palestine as a "terrorist" state, the only people I call "terrorists" are the suicide bombers and the terrorist groups like Hamas. I did not brush aside the killing of civilians, in fact, I believe I specifically said that I don't agree with all of Israel's policy and don't really agree with the whole collective punishment thing.

If you're too busy to argue logically then fine, but that is no reason to argue illogically and with ad hominem attacks.

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Originally posted by DigiNut Perhaps you'd prefer if I argued like hardcore trancer? That's definitely not "rhetoric", right?

oh Dig Digi Digi you need to get off the computer and meet some ladies???

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Originally posted by DigiNut And this argument means what exactly? First of all, this addresses absolutely nothing in my original post. I realize you may be too "busy" to address it "point by point", but the fact is that you have not addressed a single one of the points I expressed. You merely came up with a straw-man argument deploring sentiment that's vaguely similar to my point of view. In fact, it's not just a straw-man argument, it makes use of whole host of fallacious logic, only 3 types of which I'm going to bother to discuss: 1. The "False Dichotomy" or "Black and White" fallacy. Basically this term refers to an instance of faulty logic which claims "P can only be A or B, and it is not B, so it must be A." The logic is considered fallacious when it ignores a third option, C. In your case, your claim is that Hamas terrorists can only fight either with advanced heavy weapons or with traditional means of terrorism. But you ignore the third option, which is that they don't have to kill anyone. Many nations have been brutally conquered and oppressed to a far greater extent of magnitude than Palestine, and they don't systematically kill civilians in order to get "their" land back.

The IDF doesnt have to KILL anyone either but they do way more than hamas has done.

Althiough i do not agree with the inocents that are killed in hams organized suicide attacks, you cannot blame them for popping out of no where becuase palestinians inheently want a group that will kiill all the jews and destroy israel. This organization germinated two decades after occupation. Frustration anger and humiliation caused by Israel's agressive tactics is a major factor in the birth of vengence-seeking groups.

If there was no revenge to take, these organizations wouldnt be formed.

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2. Attacking the person, or ad hominem tu quoque. A term used to refer to mounting an argument against a person by claiming that they don't "practice what they preach." The claim here is that we should not deplore Hamas terrorists because the IDF has committed similar acts. This fallacy is particularly disturbing in this instance, because it comes from the same people who insist that Israel should withdraw from occupied territory and withdraw IDF forces despite the ongoing threat of Palestinian violence. So in essence, you say that Israel should practice what it preaches, but Palestine does not have to.

Palestine CANNOT collectively practice disengagement of violence becuase the PA authority does not have the resources to control these millions of people. They are essentially an organization without a properly organizeed defense and policing squad that can help put order into the angry population. Not only has israel destroyed the infrastructure of this policing mechanism that was actually working before the intifada, but have also strengthened the loyalty of many palestinians for HAmas, a mob like organization that has just as much, if not more influence on the populace than the PA.

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Over the past 18 months, Israel has systematically attacked all the facilities of the Palestinian Authority, including police stations, prisons and intelligence headquarters, and killed and assassinated many Palestinian security officers. Hence while crippling and killing the Palestinian security forces, Israel makes the ludicrous demand that these same forces go out and work on Israel's behalf.

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In this case, I also call it the Ostrich argument. Why do I call it the Ostrich argument? Because it bears a remarkable likeness to burying your head in the ground and just ignoring whatever you don't want to see as if it somehow isn't there. Turning a blind eye to the nationwide glorification of martyrdom, the hate textbooks, the financial incentives to families of suicide bombers, as if it all has no relevance to the issue and that the terrorists only do what they do because they "have" to.

This also applies to the pro-israeli rhetoric that has been spewed countless times. The only thing they percieve and see is "TERRORISM". Not even delving into the cause or formation of reasons behind it in a way has given them this ostrich fallacy. The number of factors going against israel as a collective organized and institutionalized nation is far more influencial than the unorganized, corrupt and de-centralized power that the palestinians have been affected by. Not only do they physically suffer by the occupiers, they also suffer becuase the occupiers blame an authority that hardly has control over these people for the acts of a few brainwashed and demoralized individuals. Double trouble for the pals.

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3. The Straw Man. In case there is anyone on the planet who doesn't know what a straw man is yet, it's a form of "logic" where you take someone's argument, construct a considerably weaker argument out of it (the "straw man"), and then attack the weak form of the argument. Suffice it to say that nobody here really cares about the means in which Hamas kills Israeli civilians, or whether they do it with suicide bombers or heavy weapons. The problem here is that they are killing civilians, not just as collateral damage but as deliberate targets. This IS terrorism, and it bears little to no resemblance to counterterrorist acts by the IDF which take out a few civilian casualties. It's easy to be a hippie and cry over the loss of life, but it's different when you live out there and know that somebody's going to die anyway.

"This IS terrorism, and it bears little to no resemblance to counterterrorist acts by the IDF which take out a few civilian casualties."!!!!!!!!!

I love how you label the violent actions of the IDF as counter-terror, while they have been proven to kill and TARGET innocents numerous times. Ive proven it a dozen times in the political forums.

And lets not forget the long thread on the meaning of terrorism that you and george smiley were arguing over. It was agreed upon that state terror is one type of terror that falls under the umbrella of terrorism as a whole. The actions of ISrael are even more terroristic than the pathetic few who have killed but 1/4th of israeli innocents.

"few casualties" haahhahahhhahah

heres a great analysis at how the IDF REALLY serves.

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For immediate release Date: November 3, 2000 Contact: John Heffernan, Media and Public Affairs Coordinator W) [617] 695-0041, ext. 220 H) [617] 623-4249 Email: [email protected][/email] Web site: www.phrusa.org Barbara Ayotte, Director of Communications W) [617] 695-0041, ext. 210 Email: [email][email protected] Update and Commentary November 22, 2000 The Physicians for Human Rights report is based solely on the events and dynamics investigated by our team at the time of their investigation (October 20-27, 2000). We recognize that violence committed by both sides of the conflict has escalated since our team was in the region. We condemn attacks on children by both sides, as well as putting children in the front lines, bombings by both sides, and attacks on civilians by both sides. The focus of this medical and scientific investigation was limited to the specific issues of excessive and inappropriate use of force, types of ammunitions used, and violations of medical neutrality in the context of the current wave of violence in the region. We believe that the underlying causes of violence, the occupation, and questions of implementation of peace accords are issues that other groups are better able to address. At the time we conducted our investigation, we recognized that Palestinians were clearly firing at Israeli soldiers and settlers, including children, in situations that do not involve self-defense. These actions are human rights violations. In our report, we call on the Palestinian Authority to prevent such acts of violence and hold accountable the individuals who have committed these acts. PHR also understands that a stone may be a lethal weapon under specific circumstances, but not all instances of stone throwing place soldiers in jeopardy. Our conclusions regarding the IDF's inappropriate and excessive use of force remain valid and are not based on any single finding, but rather the totality of the evidence we collected: the high number of gunshots to the head; the volume of serious, disabling thigh injuries; the inappropriate firing of rubber bullets and rubber-coated steel bullets at close range; and the high proportion of Palestinian injuries and deaths. In our analysis, we found that the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing. After interviewing senior IDF personnel, we were concerned that the IDF has either violated its own previously published rules of engagement, which we have seen, or has issued new, less restrictive rules, which it refuses to reveal. PHR believes that our findings, based on patterns of injuries and ammunition studied, especially in regard to the use of lethal force by the Israel Defense Force (IDF), clearly suggest that civilians not posing life-threatening danger in the territories were being disproportionately shot at by IDF in a manner that violates the standards for the use of proportional force outlined in the Geneva Conventions and within international human rights and humanitarian agreements to which Israel is party. We have received some inquiries about our methodology for reviewing hospital records. The PHR team had free access to all patients in hospitals it visited in the Palestinian territories This degree of access allowed team members to randomly interview the patient population and examine their hospital records, including operating room reports and X-ray films for each case it reviewed. The hospital records were by and large handwritten and were consistent with ordinary documents that doctors in these hospitals maintain on a daily basis. They coincided with testimonies collected from patients. The team found no visible evidence of tampering or forgery in the materials it reviewed. Another major concern is reports of Palestinian misuse of ambulances. During the PHR team's visit to the Middle East, it did not receive specific allegations regarding Palestinian misuse of ambulances, in violation of medical neutrality. If allegations about attacks on Israeli ambulances and misuse of Palestinian ambulances are true, we will condemn these acts. We are currently researching these allegations further and will report our findings on our website as soon as our inquiry is completed. We did request information from the IDF on all soldiers who were wounded or killed, including the two reserve soldiers killed in Ramallah while in Palestinian police custody. We attempted to investigate the killings of the two IDF reservists but were not given access to the relevant medical information. It is important to note that PHR also found in the course of its research some clear misinterpretations of IDF activities, and we conclusively stated that we had found no evidence that IDF personnel had ever used "dum-dum" bullets or other types of expanding munitions during its operations PHR also conclusively found that IDF spokespeople were correct in calling the death of 'Issam Judeh Mustafa Hamed a vehicular accident. While not the focus of our study, the PHR report clearly states that children should be protected by the Palestinian community and Palestinian authorities to the fullest extent possible. We condemn abuses against children. We strongly believe that parents and authorities should not expose these children to harm. Both Palestinian and Israeli authorities have a responsibility to ensure that children are not targets of lethal weapons or inappropriate use of force. Also, PHR is very concerned about any use of children as combatants �a clear violation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child�and strongly called in its report on the Palestinian Authority to not place children in combat situations.

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In this case, you make a second straw man argument relating to the US invading Canada, which is so totally false an analogy it's not even worth discussing. Suffice it to say, Palestine did not even exist as a state before Israel sprung up, and Israel was weak as a kitten in the early days (pre-1948) when it started to be attacked by the people now known as Palestinians. This is hardly similar to a well-established country attacking its stated ally north of the border.

Like ive shown you before in that super long response i gave you, Palestine was palestine for centuries, Longer than israel was Israel. The indeginous population of this middle eastern region was displaced and forced out/muredered to make room for predominately eastern european jews who are not INDIGENOUS to the land. Ruassians, Pols, lituanians, estonians etc..came in and took these people homes by force, claiming they had just as much, if not an even more right to the land than they did. They as a group of people Invaded these peoples HOMELAND...One of the most fucked up things ive ever learned next to the mass extermination of Jews in the halocaust.

And just becuase palestine was not internationally recognized as a nation, did that give the zionists a right to declare their own coutnry out of the blue???????

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Hamas is a terrorist organization with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel. It says so unequivocally in their own charter. The IDF, on the other hand, may have a few shakey policies but certainly and without question acknowledges Palestine's right to exist as a state.

Israel was founded on the notion that it is supposed to be a nation for and solely for the Jews. That means there must be no other peoples that may threaten this desired characteristic. Although they "acknowledge" palestines right to exist, zionist mentality hashinted that the pals are to be removed. Just look at their situation... they are living in horrible conditions. My opinioon on this is that the Israeli knesset wants to make life as shitty as possible for the pals so they voluntarily move out. Voluntary slow transfer.

How can you think they want the palestinians to be in the same region when that fat ball of shit Ariel Sharon has explicity been quoted saying

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"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

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Once again, I get tired of the rhetoric here. If anyone has an actual argument to present, then be my guest. But the fact of the matter is that Hamas has always chickened out after seeing Israel target its leadership, and I have no doubt that it will continue to do so.

These people are not chicken... they do not fear death becuase of the "afterlife" they think they will experience. They are willing to blow themselves up for their cause. They do not care for innocents, as they see the state of ISrael as supporting itself through the actions the IDF takes against the pals daily.

Hamas will continue to exist until the palestinians feel no need to resist. Once the palestinians feel they dont have to fight for their freedom and land, these types of acts will cease to exist.

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Hardcore trancer, I've never watched CNN in my life. You've yet to come up with a single argument that does not take the form of a sweeping generalization or an ad hominem attack.

I watch BBC

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